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Old 07-22-2003, 02:04 PM   #26
Klaus
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Oh, I forgot to answer some other questions about the LM-1:

1. Sensor cable length
Sensor cable length is 10ft. It can be extended to 12 ft but we recommend not to go over that. Wire size required should be 16ga for the heater wires (or pair up two 18 ga).
Power cable length is 10ft. The combined length of power cable and sensor cable should not exceed 20ft.

2. Power draw
During warmup up to 1.8 A. In operation at 14V typically 0.9A. In download mode (sensor not operating) 80mA.
Operating voltage is 9.5V to 16V (with Bosch sensor), 11V to 16V with NTK sensor. The meter is NOT reverse polarity protected. Although the meter will not be damaged, the sensor might if a reverse power condition persists for more than a few seconds.
The heater is PWM controlled at 122 Hz.
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Old 07-22-2003, 03:41 PM   #27
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Klaus - Everything sounds good, but there is only one thing from stopping me from ordering one right now, the display. Is there any chance that we can convince you to make a larger display to read off of one of the outputs? I can use one for my Haltech input, but I would have to have the laptop fired up for that. Even if it was a non-encased LCD with 3 digits (and a decimal, of course) that was 1.75" x .75" it would be perfect to sit in a gauge pod, and just making a cover for it would make it appear clean (which I'm sure most people can do, but just not the electronics side of it).

Also, is there anything wrong with mounting this permanently in the car? (in the downpipe after the turbo 6-8") I would think since it's an OEM sensor for VW that it should last at least 100k on unleaded fuel... right?

And lastly... any chance of a group buy if we can get 5 people together around here that want one? I realize it couldn't be much due to profit margins, but it doesn't hurt to ask.
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Old 07-22-2003, 04:49 PM   #28
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Hi,


Quote:
Even if it was a non-encased LCD with 3 digits (and a decimal, of course) that was 1.75" x .75" it would be perfect to sit in a gauge pod, and just making a cover for it would make it appear clean (which I'm sure most people can do, but just not the electronics side of it).
Unfortunately we don't have the resources right now to design a complete display except the one we are planning anyway (and that is no bigger than the one in the instrument). If we did, we would also need to design the bezel, mounting etc. because we don't want to ship a half baked product. For a DIY one you might want to check out www.digikey.com and search for 'digital panel meter'. You will find a whole raft of them and I'm sure you will find one that suits your requirements.



Quote:
Also, is there anything wrong with mounting this permanently in the car? (in the downpipe after the turbo 6-8") I would think since it's an OEM sensor for VW that it should last at least 100k on unleaded fuel... right?
> 100k is what the Bosch specs say. If that is reality, we will see. The unit will tell you when it is time to replace the sensor, determined by its response time (old ones, like people, get sluggish).
There's nothing wrong with permanently mounting it in the car. The manual has details on what to look out for when you do that. Just don't mount it in the engine compartment (Zip-tied to the exhaust manifold is a definite no-no). LCD's don't accept a too high temperature. You will have an inadvertently colored LCD.

Quote:
And lastly... any chance of a group buy if we can get 5 people together around here that want one? I realize it couldn't be much due to profit margins, but it doesn't hurt to ask
Yes, incidentally, 5 units is our first discount break for dealers. Contact patrick@innovate-tech.com (sales). I will prewarn him. Be aware that our first production run is just about sold out and the next batch is a few weeks away. For a group buy we would ship to one shipping address from which whoever is distributing it can ship it further, essentially treating the group as dealer. But that isn't my bailiwick.
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Old 07-22-2003, 06:39 PM   #29
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i love it when manufacturs vist here .. it makes me want to buy their products...
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Old 07-22-2003, 07:01 PM   #30
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Looks like a great unit!

I'm with 8complex, how about a auxillary display output on the unit for an optional gauge style display available in the car mount unit?

-Dylan
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Old 07-23-2003, 05:28 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus
Unfortunately we don't have the resources right now to design a complete display except the one we are planning anyway (and that is no bigger than the one in the instrument). If we did, we would also need to design the bezel, mounting etc. because we don't want to ship a half baked product. For a DIY one you might want to check out www.digikey.com and search for 'digital panel meter'. You will find a whole raft of them and I'm sure you will find one that suits your requirements.
I gotcha... just that a permanent mount needs a more convienent display. How about this for an idea... the display in the unit, is it PCB-mounted or is it attached otherwise with a cable running to it? If it's mounted seperately, would it be possible to disassemble the unit and remove the display and replace the cable with a longer one to relocate it? I could mount the unit under the dash, run the sensor cable through the firewall (there is a plug on it, right?) and then relocate the readout to a lower corner of my gauge cluster for easy reading.
Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus
Yes, incidentally, 5 units is our first discount break for dealers. Contact patrick@innovate-tech.com (sales). I will prewarn him. Be aware that our first production run is just about sold out and the next batch is a few weeks away. For a group buy we would ship to one shipping address from which whoever is distributing it can ship it further, essentially trating the group as dealer. But that isn't my bailiwick.
Cool, if there is enough interest here, I will have to look into this. I ran a GB a while back for J&S units with the same shipping deal as this, so it wouldn't be a big deal for me to hold this one as well, as long as the manufacturer can give me realistic shipping dates.
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Old 07-23-2003, 12:00 PM   #32
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Hi 8,

The display in the unit is not on the PCB, but connected to the main PCB with a 16 pin cable. Unfortunately this cable cannot be longer than a few inches. The serial display we are working on for the car-mounted unit will also work with the current hand-held unit. It connects to the serial port of the unit and draws its power from there too. The cable length then is up to 10 ft between unit and display. This remote display has the Record button also built-in. The 'Calibrate' button stays on the unit itself because it would otherwise be too easy to inadvertently calibrate to exhaust gas instead of free air when somebody hits the button by accident.
The target size for the planned unit is 1.5 x 3.5 inches. You can take this unit out of the housing and permanently mount it in a gage cluster. Digikey even sells a good looking black plastic bezel that fits the display. Contacte me for the part-# when the time comes.
To configure your LM-1 to use the new display all you need to do is to connect the LM-1 to your computer, run our included software and click the 'serial display' button to change to unit to serial display mode.
My suggestion of using a digital panel meter would give you a nice BIG LED display (like the LambdaBoy display) if you want to. These panel meters are typically voltmeters 0-2V with the decimal point set by grounding the appropriate pin on the meter. This would be ideal as direct AFR display using one of the analog outputs.
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Old 07-23-2003, 03:29 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jon [in CT]
The factory default settings for the second signal produce a 1-2V signal, where 1V corresponds to an A/F of 10:1 and 2V corresponds to an A/F of 20:1. This signal is designed to be used with a digital volt meter, allowing one to directly read A/F from the DVM's display.
Was this taken off of the site somewhere? There is almost no data on the unit there that I could find, but this would be excellent information (that somehow I missed before). Now the trouble would be finding one that is suitable... 3.5 digit, LED meter, direct voltage readout from input...
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Old 07-24-2003, 09:17 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jon [in CT]
In summary, I find the LM-1's "analog out" design to be extremely clever and flexible.
Indeed.

GROUP BUY! GROUP BUY! GROUP BUY!
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Old 07-24-2003, 01:03 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by 8Complex
Was this taken off of the site somewhere? There is almost no data on the unit there that I could find, but this would be excellent information (that somehow I missed before).
8Complex, that info was derived from their well-written user's manual, available at their site via the "Support" button.
Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus
5. Pressure compensation
The measurement method we use and have applied for a patent indeed does allow to theoretically compensate for exhaust pressure. Unfortunately the Bosch sensors have a temperature dependent parasitic resistance in the virtual ground of the pump/Nernst cell. This interferes with our pressure compensation by simulating exhaust pressure changes when there is in actuality only a change in sensor housing temp. We are working on a software way around that so that you can download it later to the meter. This is a try, not a promise.
Until now, I'd never read about any electrical property or relationship of either the sensor cells or their heater that varied with a change in gas pressure but didn't vary with a change in partial oxygen pressure or gas temperature. Finding such a property or relationship certainly deserves a patent and I eagerly await the publication of the patent application. I hope that among the patent's claims is the ability to use an oxygen sensor as a surrogate pressure tranducer in the exhaust stream. Although there appear to be some problems getting this technique to work well with the Bosch sensor, I take it that LM-1's pressure compensation technique DOES work well with the NTK sensor?

Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus
Because the Bosch sensors are much more temperature dependent than for example the NTK the accuracy will greatly suffer. The NTK on the other hand is less temperature sensitive but much more pressure sensitive than the Bosch, so it will suffer more from pressure induced inaccuracies.
Is the LM-1's temperature compensation technique able to more-or-less eliminate any difference in temperature dependence between the NTK and Bosch sensors? On the other hand, even though the NTK sensor signal is inherently more pressure dependent than the Bosch, given that the LM-1's pressure compensation technique doesn't yet work well with the Bosch, does using the NTK with the LM-1 result in less distortion due to pressure variations than when using the Bosch with the LM-1?

Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus
The minimum lambda is sensor dependent. In case of the Bosch it's minimum is about 0.65 lambda.
What is the minimum lambda (richest A/F ratio) that can be accurately detected by the NTK sensor?

I guess this entire post is leading to the question: If one could use either the NTK or the Bosch sensor with the LM-1, which one should be preferred?
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Old 07-24-2003, 02:43 PM   #36
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Hi Jon,

Here are some answers:

Quote:
that info was derived from their well-written user's manual.
Thank you.

Quote:
Until now, I'd never read about any electrical property or relationship of either the sensor cells or their heater that varied with a change in gas pressure but didn't vary with a change in partial oxygen pressure or gas temperature.
The properties that change with gas pressure are sensor current (raw lambda) and sensor response time. They do not change proportionally. So from the difference pressure compensation data can be derived when comparing both to the free-air current and response time (free air assumed at normalized sea-level pressure).

Quote:
Although there appear to be some problems getting this technique to work well with the Bosch sensor, I take it that LM-1's pressure compensation technique DOES work well with the NTK sensor?
No, for time and money reasons we have not implemented it for the NTK. To realize the pressure compensation we need to make a lot of tests with the sensors at different pressures at different lambdas. Because we are shipping with the Bosch, we put the majority of our development time there (we have been a non-profit organisation for too long ;-) ).
The temperature regulation for the Bosch actually does very well compensate for the higher temperature dependence of the Bosch sensor. It actually works much better than the NTK temperature compensation. The NTK is spec'd for a constant htr voltage of 10.5V, typically using the positive temperature coeff. of the heater to self-regulate. During initial heater calibration we run the NTK at a constant 10.5V after warmup for 20 seconds, then measure the heater resistance to ~5 mOhm precision (quantization accuracy, not absolute accuracy). This value is stored and used to regulate the heater of the NTK to a constant resistance using a PID algorithm. Because there can be a temperature gradient between heater and pump cell, the NTK will not work as precise as the Bosch implementation.
We actually considered dropping the NTK support completely.
With the limited number of NTK sensors tested (5) we found a minimum of about 0.67 Lambda (9.85 AFR) for the NTK, assuming the max. negative current of the NTK is the same as the worst case free-air current. We have much less manuf. data for the NTK than for the Bosch, that's the second reason we did not spend too much time on it. As I understand, Horriba has the rights to use the NTK sensor for AFR measuring in the US. I assume that's why there is so little data available. My hat off to the original designers of the DIY-WB. It must have been difficult to derive a working design from so little data.


Regards,
Klaus
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Old 07-24-2003, 04:54 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus
The properties that change with gas pressure are sensor current (raw lambda) and sensor response time. They do not change proportionally. So from the difference pressure compensation data can be derived when comparing both to the free-air current and response time (free air assumed at normalized sea-level pressure).
Thanks for the quick response, Klaus. I think I understand how your pressure compensation works. I think it depends, for one thing, on the assumption that when the throttle suddently closes (like during a gear upshift) then the A/F ratio and pressure of the exhaust gas will abrubtly change to that of "free air assumed at normalized sea-level pressure."

So, if the LM-1 assumes this is happening and expects that the sensor's pump current should take x milliseconds to rise to that of free air after an abrupt shift in lambda of, say, from .7 to free-air, but instead the LM-1 observes that the actual sensor response time was only x-y milliseconds, then the LM-1 knows that it was underestimating the exhaust gas pressure (and over estimating lambda) at .7 lambda and it adjusts its estimation of exhaust pressure and its related lambda correction factor.

I was surprised to find that the Bosch sensor reads deeper into the rich zone than does the NTK. Anyone want to buy a new, in-the-box NTK L1H1 sensor?

Last edited by Jon [in CT]; 07-24-2003 at 05:07 PM.
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Old 07-24-2003, 05:18 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jon [in CT]
Anyone want to buy a new, in-the-box NTK L1H1 sensor?
These sell quite quickly if you post in one the EFI lists. I sold 2 of them just a couple of weeks ago, the same day I ordered 2 LSU sensors in fact
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Old 07-24-2003, 06:04 PM   #39
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Hi Jon,

Quote:
I think I understand how your pressure compensation works. I think it depends, for one thing, on the assumption that when the throttle suddently closes (like during a gear upshift) then the A/F ratio and pressure of the exhaust gas will abrubtly change to that of "free air assumed at normalized sea-level pressure."
No, that's not how it works. That would compensate only after the fact. The way it works is that our circuit forms with the oxygen sensor a free running oscillator with variable duty cycle, frequency, output voltage and output waveform shape. Those four variables vary with lambda, exhaust pressure, sensor temperature and sensor age. As you can see, with the correct math we have a system of equations where the individual source variables (lambda, exhaust pressure, temperature and sensor contamination) can be extracted. This is the essence of the patent. Conventional designs use a PID loop, where the sense cell is the input and the pump current is the control output. By their nature they can measure only one variable, the pump current. Also PID controllers assume a fixed time-delay in the step response of the controlled system. Because the response time of the sensors varies with lambda and pressure (forget age and temperature for now), they typically are designed for the worst case response and are either slow or have overswing outside the design point.
After having said that, our patent lawyer will probably kill me.

I measured on our system a response of ~80ms between free air and lambda 0.8. The measurement method was to blast high pressure calibrated gas into a small measurement chamber (<1ccm) in which the sensor was mounted. I found a small overswing of about 0.08 lambda, which was due to the sensor being rapidly cooled by the measurement gas while the heater could not respond fast enough. In a real world application on a carburated 350ci V8 with dual exhausts and 1 cylinder misfiring, the misfire was visible on the lambda bar on the display(as lean peak) at up to ~900 RPM. Because of this fast response (also visible on the analog outs) it would probably be beneficial to put a low-pass filter on an analog output used with a DVM for AFR display.


The lower AFR limit for the NTK is what we measured with our circuit, where we are careful not to exceed the assumed NTK limits. This does not say the NTK cannot go richer. Same goes for the Bosch.

BTW: Quick test for the LM-1 (for those who got one or will):
After calibration with free air, breathe on the sensor. It will show the approx. oxygen content of your breath. If you breathe through a MAF sensor you should be able to calculate calories burned.

Don't breathe calibrated lambda gases (bottled smog).

Regards,
Klaus
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Old 07-24-2003, 07:18 PM   #40
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Klaus, all I can say is WOW! Your meter does, indeed, sound better than anything else on the market. And it's even compensating for sensor aging, too. This is all very impressive.

The fact that your meter doesn't rely on the calibration resistor, embedded in the sensor connector during manufacturing, hasn't escaped my notice. This is also goodness, since such a resistor must be a discrete value and is unlikely to be the "best" value, even when new. Does your meter's sensor cable still use the sensor's connector, anyhow, for ease of attachment to the meter's cable, or does one just cut off the sensor's connector?

P.S. I apologize for being such a Doubting Thomas earlier in this thread. Perhaps someone at your company could orgainze your responses here into a more extensive FAQ at www.TuneYourEngine.com for future visitors to your website to forsestall the type of misunderstandings that I had.

Last edited by Jon [in CT]; 07-24-2003 at 07:33 PM.
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Old 07-24-2003, 08:42 PM   #41
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Hi Jon,

Thanx for the kind response. The units coming in the field now will tell us if we missed something. If so, it can be easily corrected by downloading new firmware (unless something in the hardware is wrong, which I hope is not the case).

Quote:
This is also goodness, since such a resistor must be a discrete value and is unlikely to be the "best" value, even when new.
That is true in case of the NTK L1H1. It uses E24 series resistors. In case of the Bosch, that is not true. The Bosch resistor is a thin-film resistor element that is laser-trimmed in the factory to the correct value, not in discrete steps.

Quote:
Does your meter's sensor cable still use the sensor's connector, anyhow, for ease of attachment to the meter's cable, or does one just cut off the sensor's connector?
The sensor cable comes with the correct mating connector for the VW sensor attached, so it's just plug-and-play and you could buy a replacement sensor from your nearest VW dealer.

The questions and responses from this list and others are continuously collected and will be put in the FAQ. As you can imagine, our marketing and sales types are busier than a one-armed juggler right now and so updates to the web-site take a back-seat.
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Old 07-31-2003, 02:04 PM   #42
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Does anybody have one of these near SE Michigan? If so, we could run a comparision. I have access to both Horiba and ETAS a/f meters and we could run all three at the same time and compare measurements. I could even data log the test...

Unfortunately, to me, it sounds too good to be true. But, if it is, it will be really nice. I've just been around test equipment for a long time...and I know how much it costs. Not to say that cost=quality, but it usually is pretty accurate...

Oh...and one little thing...

Quote:
The problem is repeatability for even the same sensor. Depending on ambient air pressure, humidity and (in case of the Bosch sensor) sensor housing tenperature causes variations can occur.
This is error. I hope you didn't just ignore this repeatability variance.
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Old 07-31-2003, 03:43 PM   #43
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I got mine yesterday, but sorry, I am in WA. The comparison between your other sensors would be very interesting.

Klaus sent me his test data when using calibration gases of 0.8, 0.85 and 0.9 lambda using a random sensor (meaning, not hand picked) the maxium error in the data logs was 0.06 *AFR* (for the 0.9 lambda test) and the average error was 0.02 *AFR* or less.
Yes it's only one sensor, but still very encouraging test results and much more precise than the claimed 0.01 Lambda accuracy.

If you would like to see the data, shoot me a PM.

-Rob
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Old 08-02-2003, 04:24 AM   #44
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Hello all !

I was just made aware of this site/thread from a bud of mine, and have since canceled my order on this meter http://plxdevices.com/products.htm
to purchase the LM-1 instead. I like the features.

My question is will I be able to make the LM-1 work with the auto tune feature on my EM Tec-2 standalone ?
I'm not a wizard @ electrical do-dads, so I was hopeing some one here could answer this before I buy the LM-1.

thanks
joel
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Old 08-05-2003, 08:52 AM   #45
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Well,

I just put my order in for the LM-1 We shall see The deal clencher was the ability to have a "narrow band" output WITH some resolution. That will work perfect with the lambda autotune function of the Link
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Old 08-05-2003, 09:13 AM   #46
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Question

it seems to me that the logical extension of a WBO2 is to connect it directly to an ECU of some sort, and be able to input desired target AFR and simply sit back and let the ECU adjust fuel in closed loop--constantly.

is there such a system out there that does this, or has it yet to be invented/prototyped/tested/produced?

ken
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Old 08-05-2003, 11:49 AM   #47
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would this sensor alone work with a utec?
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Old 08-05-2003, 01:53 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by ride5000
it seems to me that the logical extension of a WBO2 is to connect it directly to an ECU of some sort, and be able to input desired target AFR and simply sit back and let the ECU adjust fuel in closed loop--constantly.

is there such a system out there that does this, or has it yet to be invented/prototyped/tested/produced?

ken
There are several systems that do this. Look in the aftermarket ECU FAQ
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Old 08-05-2003, 01:58 PM   #49
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Thats exactly what I'm hoping to get the LM-1 to do with my Tec2...

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Old 08-06-2003, 12:11 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by ride5000
it seems to me that the logical extension of a WBO2 is to connect it directly to an ECU of some sort, and be able to input desired target AFR and simply sit back and let the ECU adjust fuel in closed loop--constantly.

is there such a system out there that does this, or has it yet to be invented/prototyped/tested/produced?

ken
No you must have a controller.




Klaus, I have spoken to you on the phone before and am extremely impressed with what I have read. I would as everyone else like to see it in action and somedayt I might.

Here is my opne consern that you may be able to address. The LM-1 as sold is not able to log RPMS so logging in general will be somewhat uninformative. Having AFR to plot withpout knowing the RPM it was at seems useless.

I know there is another controller that is supposed to supplement this but most of the affordable grade AFR meters I have used have something interegrated. Any plans to do this or did I miss something where this is already doable?

All I want is a nice AFR that uses the cheap VW Sensor, Calbrates easily and logs AFR and RPMS all in one package. So far Techedge v2.0 foots this bill.
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