Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Sunday December 21, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Engine Management & Tuning

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-17-2003, 10:52 AM   #76
misterblu
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 39054
Join Date: Jun 2003
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by EMS
Klaus,

Nice product!

Is it possible to setup one analog output to show a signal that a 1V O2 sensor would produce?

I ask this because I want to replace the standard 1V sensor and have the possibility to "feed" the cars ECU, so the lambda control is still working.

Mark.
Mark,

Yes, you can simulate your NBo2 sensor. In fact, the LM-1 comes configured with Analog output #1 set up for this IIRC.

Take a look at the configuration screenshot I've posted at:
http://lagunamiata.home.att.net/LM-1/lm-1analog1.jpg

You should be able to set up a slope between 2 points that will match what your ECU expects to see. In the case of a stock ECU, I'm guessing you would just want to make sure that the output V at stoich was correct although there may be an optimum "rich" and "lean" voltage as well.

Since I'm able to program an EGO response curve into my ECU, I've just used "rich" and "lean" points of 10:1 and 22.05:1.

http://lagunamiata.home.att.net/LM-1/egocal.jpg

(the TEC2 internally multiplies the V by 5, that's why the V numbers are different in this screenshot)

Regards,
Jon
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
misterblu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2003, 11:49 AM   #77
EMS
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 14116
Join Date: Jan 2002
Default

Perfect!
EMS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2003, 01:00 PM   #78
turboICE
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 33979
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: N.NJ
Vehicle:
2006 STi,'11 OBS
WRB & Black/Silver

Default

EMS on a rex? Closed loop fuel control is via the front O2 which is wider than 1v. The rear O2 is 1v and only for monitoring cat efficiency it plays no role in engine management.

Many have said that they have not been able condition the signal from any other source to duplicate the signal the ECU uses for closed loop fuel control. Do you know of a way?
turboICE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2003, 06:58 PM   #79
misterblu
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 39054
Join Date: Jun 2003
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by jehcpa
EMS on a rex? Closed loop fuel control is via the front O2 which is wider than 1v. The rear O2 is 1v and only for monitoring cat efficiency it plays no role in engine management.

Many have said that they have not been able condition the signal from any other source to duplicate the signal the ECU uses for closed loop fuel control. Do you know of a way?
Admittedly, I know nothing about the rex. If what it responds to is fairly linear, and between 0 and 5V, you might be able to get it to work as is. If not, you might email Klaus (email earlier in this thread) as he might be able to make something work if he is given the correct response curve.
misterblu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2003, 07:09 PM   #80
turboICE
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 33979
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: N.NJ
Vehicle:
2006 STi,'11 OBS
WRB & Black/Silver

Default

My belief is that the ECU is reading voltage and another electrical measure (I don't know resistance or something) raw and doing the conversion to AFR internally. The sensor is quasi wide band in that it has signals like a wide band that need to be converted but doesn't have the accuracy range of a true wide band (I think because of the pressure from being pre-turbo. The front sensor is not a linear type like the rear narrow band so the ECU would not understand a linear signal at a 1v range or 5v range. Hence no aftermarket sensors can drive the close loop fuel control since the ECU also does not understand true wide band.

This is my understanding (which is not free from fault).

Last edited by turboICE; 08-17-2003 at 07:14 PM.
turboICE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2003, 07:44 PM   #81
misterblu
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 39054
Join Date: Jun 2003
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by jehcpa
My belief is that the ECU is reading voltage and another electrical measure (I don't know resistance or something) raw and doing the conversion to AFR internally. The sensor is quasi wide band in that it has signals like a wide band that need to be converted but doesn't have the accuracy range of a true wide band (I think because of the pressure from being pre-turbo. The front sensor is not a linear type like the rear narrow band so the ECU would not understand a linear signal at a 1v range or 5v range. Hence no aftermarket sensors can drive the close loop fuel control since the ECU also does not understand true wide band.

This is my understanding (which is not free from fault).
Ahh, sounds like it is already some sort of wideband. You may be SOL. Someone should e-mail Klaus anyways and see if he has a solution. If anyone can solve this, it's Klaus. He's one of the most intelligent people I've ever spoken with.
misterblu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2003, 08:00 PM   #82
turboICE
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 33979
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: N.NJ
Vehicle:
2006 STi,'11 OBS
WRB & Black/Silver

Default

In closed loop (<60% TPS) - the WRX controls fuel fine off of its front sensor and is alread based on AFR. In open loop the WRX runs fuel based on layering of load maps, it does not target an AFR since it can't even tell what the AFR is below about 11.24-12.00 and most of the fuel maps are set at levels that will usually leave you close to 10.0:1.

I assume you are talking about continuous AFR based closed loop fuel control. Even with the proper sensors the stock ECU is not set up for this - you would need a replacement ECU like Autronic to provide continuous closed loop fuel control. This WBO2 converter would be the right unit to do that with. I am not aware of any piggy back solutions that would take over fuel or even currently accept an aftermarket AFR signal.

Both WBO2 sensors that are available recommend against putting them pre-turbo (pressure issues). I don't know if this converter can adjust for a pre-turbo location. This kit would work well in a cat delete pipe or towards the bottom of the DP if someone had the third cat.
turboICE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2003, 11:17 PM   #83
Jon [in CT]
*** Banned ***
 
Member#: 2992
Join Date: Nov 2000
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Connecticut, USA
Vehicle:
02 WRX Sedan
Silver

Default

Klaus should read jon.in.ct.home.att.net/SAE970843.PDF to understand the WRX's current A/F sensor or jon.in.ct.home.att.net/SAE2002-01-0474.PDF to understand how the new sensor will be used with 2005 MY Subarus.
Jon [in CT] is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-2003, 11:43 PM   #84
turboICE
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 33979
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: N.NJ
Vehicle:
2006 STi,'11 OBS
WRB & Black/Silver

Default

Wow good stuff thanks for the doc links. I knew it probably wasn't resistance - I will try to remember current is what is being converted. Also it is really helpful to have a better grasp on why we are so limited on getting a good reading on rich conditions. Thanx Jon wish I had more of that type of information.
turboICE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2003, 05:22 PM   #85
Klaus
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 40416
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: CA
Vehicle:
68 Porsche VW Bus
white

Default

Hi there,

Quote:
Klaus should read jon.in.ct.home.att.net/SAE970843.PDF to understand the WRX's current A/F sensor or jon.in.ct.home.att.net/SAE2002-01-0474.PDF to understand how the new sensor will be used with 2005 MY Subarus.
I read it. To simulate those kinds of sensors (current limiting single cell) with a wideband controller like the LM-1would require some external circuitry. The conversion from output voltage (as from the LM-1) to constant AFR dependent output current is not difficult. It just requires an op-amp and some resistors to make a voltage to current converter. Then download the desired conversion map. I see the bigger problem in fooling the ECU in the heater circuit. Most ECU's for the more modern sensors also monitor the heater current path and throw a fault condition if the heater circuit is open, because this one indication for a disconnected or faulty sensor. Maybe the ECU in question would be happy with a constant (high wattage) resistor. But I don't know enough about the ECU to tell.

Regards,
Klaus
Klaus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2003, 05:40 PM   #86
turboICE
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 33979
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: N.NJ
Vehicle:
2006 STi,'11 OBS
WRB & Black/Silver

Default

Honestly I do not see any benefit to replicating the current closed-loop fuel control during low throttle on the stock ECU. Everything is functioning as intended - if the stock ECU could run closed-loop fuel control during high throttle that would be something to talk about. Even if the low throttle closed loop logic could be extended via a hack I don't think the space exists on the stock ECU.

There are aftermarket stand-alones that will run continuous closed-loop fuel control at all throttle positions and this unit already has the output that those would use. If a piggy back ever comes out with this ability it too would likely use a linear 5v signal rather than an amp based AFR signal.

Just my .02
turboICE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2003, 11:14 PM   #87
mr2guru
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 10334
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: St. Louis
Vehicle:
91 RX7 LSx swap
'09 CC 3.6 4motion

Default

Guess what came via UPS today?

I am VERY impressed. A company with a new product, that delivers BEFORE the said date and packaging was neat and professional like they had been doing this a long time. I like it. Well that's as far as I got....googling over it. I am going to configure a analog output for my Link so I can get crackin at this asap. Happy tuning......


-Jim

(2.4 is running strong.....now I can lean 'er out and crank up da' boost)
mr2guru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2003, 01:03 AM   #88
turboICE
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 33979
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: N.NJ
Vehicle:
2006 STi,'11 OBS
WRB & Black/Silver

Default

Which Bosch LSU sensor does the kit come with the VW one or another one?
turboICE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2003, 05:15 AM   #89
misterblu
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 39054
Join Date: Jun 2003
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by jehcpa
Which Bosch LSU sensor does the kit come with the VW one or another one?

It's the 0 258 007 057, VW part # 021-906-262-B.
misterblu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-19-2003, 08:28 PM   #90
turboICE
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 33979
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: N.NJ
Vehicle:
2006 STi,'11 OBS
WRB & Black/Silver

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by TBeck2000
I have a GB going for us MR2 owners (but others are welcome). Here's the direct link to the thread: http://board.mr2faq.com/showthread.p...hreadid=160174 , but you have to register at http://board.mr2faq.com to read it.

Essentially, the price structure is like this:
5+ Units
$334.00 (Savings of $15.00)
Free UPS Ground Shipping Included (Savings of $10.00)
Total Savings of $25.00!

10+ Units
$324.00 (Savings of $25.00)
Free UPS Ground Shipping Included (Savings of $10.00)
Total Savings of $35.00!

I am currently planning on closing the GB on August 30th unless there is a good reason to extend it. Innovate will need the following information:
-Name
-Credit Card Number & Expiration Date
-Billing Address for the credit card you are using
-Shipping Address
-Phone number you can be reached at

Innovate will not ship a single unit until all of the payments are received. I will be responsible for giving them the list of buyers and then you are will make the payment to Cort (cort@innovatemotorsports.com and (949) 388-4442 ext. 122). He's the Director of Sales for Innovate. If you want me to add you to my GB list, send me an email. We currently have 5 potential buyers on the MR2 board.

Tim
What is the status of this GB and can you add us to it from a PM on this board?

Got my LabJack and can't wait to do some WBO2 logging.
turboICE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2003, 08:53 AM   #91
TBeck2000
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 40753
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: PA
Thumbs up

We currently have the 10 people needed to reach the $324 shipped price. I will be closing the GB on Aug. 30. You are welcome to join at any time until then.

You can just send me an email at tpb9 at cdc.gov. I've never used the PM function and I don't know how to save messages.

Tim
TBeck2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2003, 04:57 PM   #92
8Complex

Moderator
 
Member#: 922
Join Date: Feb 2000
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Schaumburg, IL
Vehicle:
04 FXT
Red

Default

It looks like I should have the cash to get one this weekend. Is there another step up from the 10 buyer milestone?
8Complex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2003, 02:54 AM   #93
amelnikov
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 9827
Join Date: Aug 2001
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: New York
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Wgn 292whp
Alex Performance

Default

Tim, should I be calling the Innovative to leave them my payment info or should I wait untill the GB is closed?

Thanks,

Alex...
amelnikov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2003, 08:46 AM   #94
TBeck2000
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 40753
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: PA
Default

amelnikov:I told Cort that we would give him all the info once the GB ends. I'll send him a list of names and then you will send him your payment info. This way, he can keep all of our info together. If you send it in now, he won't know that you are in the GB and might not remember to give you the discount price. Your unit won't ship until Cort receives all the payments anyways.

8Complex: I think the 10+ level is the best they can do in terms of pricing. Do you want me to add you to the list?

Tim
TBeck2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2003, 04:11 PM   #95
8Complex

Moderator
 
Member#: 922
Join Date: Feb 2000
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Schaumburg, IL
Vehicle:
04 FXT
Red

Default

Tim - I'll know 100% in 2 days. You know, that whole displacing cash thing.
8Complex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2003, 04:19 PM   #96
TBeck2000
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 40753
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: PA
Default

Awesome. I'll be gone for the next 4 days, so if you don't receive a reply, that's why. I hope you can swing it.

Like I told my buddies: I figure I'd rather spend a few hundred and some time installing it rather than blowing an engine and spending a lot more money and time fixing it I've done that once and it's not going to happen again if I can help it.

Tim
TBeck2000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2003, 05:28 PM   #97
Klaus
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 40416
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: CA
Vehicle:
68 Porsche VW Bus
white

Default LM1 Sensor Location

Hi Y'all,

Thank's all the people on this thread for all the interrest in the LM-1.

Before all of you in the group buy will ask, the most asked question (which has not made it onto our web-site yet) is:

Where should I mount the sensor?

Answer:

Depends on your application.

The coolest spot is the best. Experience so far has shown that right before the cat is typically the coolest. The sensor should be mounted at a 9-10 o'clock or 2-3 o'clock position. The Bosch wideband is sensitive to its housing temperature. Specially Turbo applications with wide pipes retain a lot of heat in the exhaust system. This is because wide pipes have a high volume to surface ratio which slows down the cooling of the exhaust gases by the pipe surface. The same is true for coated exhaust systems. This makes the sensor housing hotter through heat conduction by the bung. By mounting the sensor at an angle under the car allows the under-car airstream to cool the sensor housing. Of course for those with extremely hot exhaust systems (like blown or turbo'ed rotaries) a possible remedy is an exhaust bypass pipe of 3/4" or 1" diameter in which the sensor is mounted.

Regards,
Klaus
Klaus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2003, 05:36 PM   #98
turboICE
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 33979
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: N.NJ
Vehicle:
2006 STi,'11 OBS
WRB & Black/Silver

Default

Tim - I sent you an e-mail, please add me to the group buy.

Thanks,
Ed.
turboICE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2003, 06:29 PM   #99
Austin
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 7089
Join Date: May 2001
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Western Wa
Default Re: LM1 Sensor Location

Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus
The coolest spot is the best. Experience so far has shown that right before the cat is typically the coolest.
Would you explain both of those statements please Klaus.

Both the NTK and Bosch sensors use internal heaters to get to 900 degrees C, right? I would think that you'd want a spot in the exhaust stream that won't go over 900C at it's hottest, but I can't see the reason for choosing the coolest spot. Seems like that would be further downstream that necessary.
Austin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2003, 07:22 PM   #100
Turbo Datsun Z Car
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 41053
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Lake Charles, La.
Vehicle:
74TT RB26dett Datsun

Default

I'd like to add my experince with the LM1, as I'm a new owner and had an issue along with other people who already are using them.

I had a problem right away, first trial drive with the sensor, and it took me taking Klaus and misterblu's valuble advice and move the sensor farther down stream .

I have a turbo inline six and with the TEC2, my reg. o2 4 wire was mounted aprox 10" down from the turbo, and I soon found out this is not how you want it with the use of the LM1/bosch.
I continued to get a sensor error after a short few min of driving ( not even under boost yet ) until I moved the sensor to where I now have it @ aprox 36" down.

I drove it hard today doing auto tunes, and I haven't had one prob. .....
Everything is aok now, And I love the meter.

Time to get on to the serious accurate AFR tuning
Turbo Datsun Z Car is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[FS]Brand New - Wideband O2 Sensor/Hood Scoop/Gasket kit. Pumpastic Engine/Power/Exhaust 1 08-04-2007 07:30 PM
Brand New Zeitronix Wideband O2 w/ LCD MajorAgee Private 'For Sale' Classifieds 7 10-14-2004 12:28 AM
New TechEdge Wideband O2 kit STFUTuning Private 'For Sale' Classifieds 7 11-19-2003 01:47 AM
1-New TechEdge Wideband O2 kit MauroMotorsports Vendor 'For Sale' Classifieds 7 09-11-2003 05:17 PM
New AEM wideband o2 sensor ThuotRDX Engine Management & Tuning 1 07-23-2003 01:06 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.