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Old 08-21-2003, 06:31 PM   #101
8Complex

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Wait a minute... am I reading that right? The O2 bung I plan on using is about 4-6" away from the turbo in my downpipe. That makes total tubing about 4' and a turbo exhaust housing before the sensor bung. I've had no trouble with either a narrowband sensor or a FJO NTK wideband setup in there. Are you saying that this location is going to be too hot for it to work correctly?
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Old 08-21-2003, 06:45 PM   #102
turboICE
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Doesn't sound low enough to capture the benefit of air flow under the car. I am guessing the very bottom of the downpipe, right in front of the third cat or in a cat delete pipe.
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Old 08-21-2003, 07:13 PM   #103
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Hi Austin,

1. Both the NTK and the Bosch run optimally at 750-800 deg C Sensor Temp. If the sensor head gets heated by the exhaust to that temperature there is no more margin for the heater controller and it runs essentially 'open loop', shutting the heater off. That's why a cooler location is better. Specially because the Bosch Sensor is more sensitive to temperature than the NTK (but less sensitive to pressure) it would result in large errors when running without tight temperature control.

2. (And more important) The Bosch sensor has a parasitic resistance in the common path between the pump-cell and the measurement cell. This resistance has a positive temperature coefficient (resistance increases with temp) and is dependent on the sensor's housing temperature. Because it is buried inside the sensor it cannot be directly measured. When measuring the sense-cell impedance or pump-cell impedance it is essentially in series with either. Both, sense-cell and pump-cell impedance, have a negative temperature coefficient. Because the heater control of the Bosch unit depends on either the sense-cell or pump-cell impedance, this parasitic resistance can disrupt the temperature control by essentially compensating the negative coeff. of either when the housing gets too hot. This means that no temperature control is possible and the resultant values would be all over the map. The LM-1 can detect that condition and throws a sensor timing error because the sensor timing with our circuit is one of the variables that is dependent on the sensor housing temp. That's why keeping the sensor housing as cool as possible is important.

Hope this explains the reasoning.

As for concerns about response time further down the pipe:

Assume a 3 liter engine at 2000 RPM and a VE at full throttle of 1.0, an exhaust pipe of 3 inches diameter, sensor placed 6 ft from the engine, and an average exhaust temp. of 800 deg C (averaged over the entire pipe length). You can calculate that the time it takes for exhaust gas to move from the engine to the sensor is about 50 milliseconds. This is a plenty fast response. Thinner pipes, higher rpms or VE of > 1.0 (boost) of course would decrease the time. Partial or closed throttle would increase the time.

Regards,
Klaus
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Old 08-21-2003, 07:54 PM   #104
8Complex

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So if the sensor needs to be under 750C (1382F) I wonder if I can safely assume a 200 loss of exhaust temperature between my heads and the downpipe. I almost never get that hot, though, and EGT's stay around the 1500F range at max. A 100F loss isn't too hard to assume, especially since the exhaust housing itself will more then likely be even cooler. The max. ambient temperature that I expect to be around the sensor will be around 200-250... there is wiring there, so I would say that is a fairly safe number to assume as a max.
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Old 08-21-2003, 08:13 PM   #105
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Hi 8,

Quote:
The max. ambient temperature that I expect to be around the sensor will be around 200-250... there is wiring there, so I would say that is a fairly safe number to assume as a max.
The big question is how much heat conduction you get through the bung. Maybe if you have problems an insulating washer or two between the sensor and the bung can help keep the sensor itself cooler.
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Old 08-21-2003, 08:41 PM   #106
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How about a water sprayer? j/k sorry no excuse for that.
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Old 08-21-2003, 11:08 PM   #107
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Thank you Klaus

Taking your colder is better approach to the extreme, would the best location be, say just in front of the muffler? Is the sensor heater powerful enough to heat the sensor adequately in room temperature?
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Old 08-22-2003, 11:38 AM   #108
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Hi there,

Quote:
How about a water sprayer?
Actually, mounting in in an enclosed, water filled vessel would be more efficient, you can then drive the engine with the resulting steam. Just change the cam to rotate at the same speed as the crank and change the lobes.


Quote:
would the best location be, say just in front of the muffler? Is the sensor heater powerful enough to heat the sensor adequately in room temperature?
As long as it is before the cat and at least 12" from the tailpipe. And yes, running at room temp. is what actually happens during free air calibr. The heater can drive the sensor even in very cold temps.

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Klaus
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Old 08-22-2003, 01:39 PM   #109
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Hey Klaus, can you please address my previous question? It's pretty much the deciding factor for me at this point...
Quote:
Originally posted by 8Complex
Wait a minute... am I reading that right? The O2 bung I plan on using is about 4-6" away from the turbo in my downpipe. That makes total tubing about 4' and a turbo exhaust housing before the sensor bung. I've had no trouble with either a narrowband sensor or a FJO NTK wideband setup in there. Are you saying that this location is going to be too hot for it to work correctly?
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Old 08-24-2003, 11:57 AM   #110
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TBeck2000, sent you an email on getting in on the GB.
Anyone mount one of these on a WRX yet?

Scott
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Old 08-24-2003, 12:36 PM   #111
turboICE
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Yeah at least one I can think of on a Link - in a seperate current thread.

TBeck when you have time can you confirm our additions to the GB?
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Old 08-25-2003, 08:20 AM   #112
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I just got back to town from my trip late last night. I've added jehcpa and gagdet951 to the list. Thanks for the patience. That brings the total number of participants to 18. We still have a few days until I'll send the list of names to Innovate and then you can contact Cort (cort@innovatemotorsports.com, (949) 388-4442 ext. 122) for payment.

Tim
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Old 08-25-2003, 02:51 PM   #113
8Complex

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I'm still waiting for a response from Klaus regarding the unit's problem of being in a more hot location.

Klaus - In case you missed it, I basically asked what the kit would do when it got too hot... throw an error, or just display inconsistently and let you know it's overheated. If it does the former, can you possibly put in a change to do the latter?

I don't see why the unit would just error out considering the users of kits like this are going to be educated enough to understand it's being inconsistent when you inform them of an overheated situation. I just want to make sure that it doesn't just completely error out on me and make itself completely useless unless I feel like welding in yet another bung further down my exhaust. The FJO worked fine, even if it was inconsistent (not that I noticed any problems), no reason another sensor made to work in the same circumstances should be any different.
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Old 08-25-2003, 03:40 PM   #114
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This thing looks fantastic, i wish turboxs would chime in about whether or not it worked with the utec... I know i know, software upgrade, but i don't recollect wideband autotuning ever being a feature.. :'( so sad...

--fed

ps: i know i know, they're also releasing their own, but this one exists... NOW!
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Old 08-26-2003, 11:43 AM   #115
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Hi 8,

Quote:
Klaus - In case you missed it, I basically asked what the kit would do when it got too hot... throw an error, or just display inconsistently and let you know it's overheated. If it does the former, can you possibly put in a change to do the latter?
The unit throws an error. The reason is that when the sensor housing gets too hot, the parasitic resistance coupling between the sense-cell and the pump cell gets so big that the processor can no longer reliably distinguish the sense-cell signal. The LM-1 measurement method is not an analog measurement of a pump current, but a thresholded measurement for sensor output pulse timing. If these pulse can no longer be distinguished, the unit throws an error.

Regards,
Klaus
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Old 08-26-2003, 12:08 PM   #116
Turbo Datsun Z Car
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geezz.... moving sensor down farther from turbo = not one error problem since.... =
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Old 08-26-2003, 07:11 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally posted by Turbo Datsun Z Car
geezz.... moving sensor down farther from turbo = not one error problem since.... =
How far is your turbo for the head? How far is the sensor from the turbo?

Thanks,
Scott
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Old 08-27-2003, 08:03 PM   #118
amelnikov
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Just called Inovative a left my info. I'm only number 7 so far, so come on guys whoever is on the GB, call in, so we can get those units shipped!

Alex...
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Old 08-27-2003, 08:17 PM   #119
turboICE
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Ahh no rush... we still have to wait through those who are lagging and then for the ones that eventually drop out, yada, yada... I will get to it at some point.






j/k - I was the first one at 8:15am their time.

Come on everyone saddle up.
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Old 08-27-2003, 09:57 PM   #120
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Are we supposed to be contacting them now or when Tim emails us about it?

I had asked Tim if it was possible to get the list grouped so that way we can get the first 10 out immediately upon pay and then the rest (14?) when they're all in. I hope so, I need to get this stuff in ASAP so that I can get my car in order for a road trip to the East Coast Shootout in a few weeks.
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Old 08-27-2003, 10:34 PM   #121
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I am going to call in my info tomorrow. 8Complex I will ask Cort when I call and post back if you don't get an answer before then. I am in the same rush as you are for the same reason.

Scott
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Old 08-27-2003, 10:43 PM   #122
turboICE
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Quote:
Originally posted by 8Complex
Are we supposed to be contacting them now or when Tim emails us about it?

I had asked Tim if it was possible to get the list grouped so that way we can get the first 10 out immediately upon pay and then the rest (14?) when they're all in. I hope so, I need to get this stuff in ASAP so that I can get my car in order for a road trip to the East Coast Shootout in a few weeks.
Yes and yes to first question - yes now but that is because you should have received the e-mail about it. I love the domain name btw.

I wouldn't mind if that happened but only if the group was the first 10! since I paid first. The request certainly seemed reasonable as long as there wasn't exclusivity to the "group". I needed this long ago and have been putting it off for a quality product at an affordable price as I am sure many of us have.

Tim said probably the end of next week is when they will ship when I spoke to him this morning.
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Old 08-28-2003, 12:58 AM   #123
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Got my first LM-1 early last week - Cort sent was kind enough to send out one to me next day so I could tune a couple customer cars.

Sadly, there was some sort of error in the programming, so I was unable to tune.

Cort sent one out right away, and at 10:30 the next day I had another one.

Yet again, the unit wouldn't output the right data - just flashed.

Worked with Klaus to figure out the problem and got everything resolved - Cort sent me out another one right away and it worked perfect!

Klaus and Cort were extremely courteous and helpful - can't ask for better customer service.

I replaced my M&W that used the NTK (from my dyno) with the LM-1 and it is by far a superior unit.

The logging capability is excellent to have, especially in my field as we need to datalog highway and city driving off the dyno.

Their software is very easy to use, but powerful. When you plug the unit into the computer, with two clicks you can download all of the recorded sessions and view them in .2 second intervals (Klaus, correct me if I'm wrong)

I can't wait to get their Aux 3 package - I'm looking to purchase another unit as well.

Three cheers to these guys - I recommend their product to anyone.

BTW - 8Complex - I saw you were in IL - if you're in the Chicago area, I'll be there this weekend with the unit tuning a customer's car - if you want to check it out.

-Chris Clough
xtech, LLC
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Old 08-28-2003, 08:01 AM   #124
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Speaking with Cort, he will be able to group the orders into batches of 10. He will wait for 10 payments to come in and then ship out that batch. 8Complex, if you contact Cort soon, you might still be able to get into "Batch 1". If not, I don't expect the subsequent batches to take very long to get paid in full. We have about 30 people on the GB as of this morning.

Tim
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Old 08-28-2003, 08:24 AM   #125
turboICE
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8,

Cort apparently doen't work the normal automotive hours for CA - he was there by and likely before 8:00AM their time yesterday so there is no need to wait until noon or 1:00PM eastern. You should be able to catch him first thing. Hopefully you can squeeze in or they can make the first batch how ever many have paid in time to ship tomorrow. i.e. if 14 have paid by tomorrow noon those 14 go out.
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