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Old 09-15-2003, 07:46 PM   #176
jblaine
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As I recall from casually browsing the online manual a few weeks ago, I am pretty sure it says to absolutely take the battery out if you hardwire power.

In fact, it says quite a bit about some of the not-so-naturally-obvious care you have to take with it.

The website does not seem to resolve for me right now though.
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Old 09-15-2003, 07:49 PM   #177
turboICE
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Wow finally, I got mine after having emails bounced for the last 5 days.

There is a full manual on the CD-ROM it says not to use the 9v for permanent installations. Along with why it drained.

Quote:
In a typical permanent installation the LM-1 will be powered by switched 12V from the vehicle (12V switched on when the ignition key is turned on) while its power switch is permanently on. Because LM-1 automatically switches to internal battery power when it does not detect 12V, the internal battery would drain quickly while the vehicle is parked. To avoid this, do not install the 9V battery. The LM-1 will function correctly without it and will be able to record as usual. To download recorded data, follow the alternate steps described in chapter 9.
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Old 09-15-2003, 07:52 PM   #178
turboICE
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Looking for which wire on the output cable (wish I knew what it was I was buying looks like a 1/8" stereo cable plug) is for which output? Is red output 1 or 2? Ditto for the white wire.

Never mind found it in Appendix A just hadn't read far enough.

Red is output 1.

Last edited by turboICE; 09-15-2003 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 09-15-2003, 08:01 PM   #179
turboICE
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Jon [in CT] if you are still monitoring this thread. Remember our other AFR discussion regarding my measurement of AFR with WI? This function does not sound like you were describing measurement.

Quote:
10.1 General measurement requirements The LM-1 measures the air-fuel-ratio by measuring the amount of oxygen in the exhaust for lean conditions or the amount of unburned or partially burned fuel for rich conditions. An exhaust leak will allow oxygen to enter the exhaust stream and therefore will measure leaner than the engine is actually running. For correct measurement, air-leaks in the exhaust MUST be prevented under all circumstances. Missing ignitions where the air-fuel mixture does not light up also pump unburned oxygen into the exhaust and cause the LM-1 to measure lean. The only circumstance where the LM-1 will measure richer than the engine is running is if the pressure in the exhaust tract is excessive and the engine is running on the rich side.
My previous AFR reader did not provide this type of information in the documentation for me to discuss with you.

Anyway your previous point was that the AFR was very sensitive to small changes in O2 on the rich side as identified from that ICE Fundamentals book that I still only understand every 10th word from. Though I did understand the graph and the point you were making - but still didn't buy the resulting conclusion. I am still waiting on Bosch feedback.

However according to this under rich conditions it is not relying on O2 content but rather unburnt/partially burnt fuel. Based on that would you still be of the view that WI invalidates AFR readings? I was under the impression that you had concluded that it was reading O2 content in all conditions. Still not fully knowledgable about these sensor's operation so was curious what your thoughts were.
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Old 09-15-2003, 09:45 PM   #180
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Quote:
Originally posted by 02scoobyWRX
Everything works well except the software disk they sent me is JUNK and will not install no matter what I try. So I cant say how the software works but the meter itself reads out the A/F ratio good enough for me to get a good idea of where I need to adjust. I would have downloaded the software off their site but it is conviently down as well.
Innovate are you still out there now that these have been sold? My software will not install either.
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Old 09-15-2003, 09:48 PM   #181
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Innovate has been having server issues. They posted on the Yahoo! group that you should try to call them at 1-949-388-4442.

Cort's extension is: 122.

As far as software not loading, there are a few things to try.

If its not autoloading, browse to your CD drive and look for a file named "InstallLM1.exe" and double click it.

If it is autoloading, but for some reason it's not doing anything, browse the CD drive, and drag the file "LMConfig.exe" onto your desktop. The nifty Log folders and start menu shortcuts won't be created, but you will be able to double click on the executable and make it work for the time being.

HTH,

Jon

Last edited by misterblu; 09-15-2003 at 10:00 PM.
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Old 09-15-2003, 10:03 PM   #182
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Quote:
Originally posted by jehcpa
Looking for which wire on the output cable (wish I knew what it was I was buying looks like a 1/8" stereo cable plug) is for which output? Is red output 1 or 2? Ditto for the white wire.

Never mind found it in Appendix A just hadn't read far enough.

Red is output 1.
Take a look at http://lagunamiata.home.att.net/lm-1.htm for Radio Shack part numbers, pictures, and a description of building the cable and noise filters (only required if you're using 0-1v output to an ECU and permanently mounting the unit).

Regards,
Jon
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Old 09-15-2003, 11:25 PM   #183
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So if I am using only the second output (white on the audio wire they sent me) for a data logger the filter is not needed right?

However if I want to simulate the rear O2 signal can I use this to fool to the ECU about my cat conditions? Can I send a lambda of 1.0 over a wide range? Or what lambda is the ECU expecting post cats something leaner or richer?

Is there a way to place a load across the heater circuit without actually heating to fool the ECU into thinking the heater is working properly?

Last edited by turboICE; 09-15-2003 at 11:59 PM.
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Old 09-16-2003, 12:38 AM   #184
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Quote:
Originally posted by jehcpa
So if I am using only the second output (white on the audio wire they sent me) for a data logger the filter is not needed right?

However if I want to simulate the rear O2 signal can I use this to fool to the ECU about my cat conditions? Can I send a lambda of 1.0 over a wide range? Or what lambda is the ECU expecting post cats something leaner or richer?

Is there a way to place a load across the heater circuit without actually heating to fool the ECU into thinking the heater is working properly?
If you're configuring the output to a smaller voltage range (0-1v in my case) and are using this output for a NB input on an ECU, you'll need the filters. You'll need to ask Klaus if you need them for your particular application if it's different than the application I described.

As far as the rear O2 signal is concerned, I'm afraid I have no idea.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

Regards,
Jon
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Old 09-16-2003, 08:12 AM   #185
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Quote:
Originally posted by 8Complex
Just wanted to add that this thing is gargantuan and I want to get it hidden ASAP. So I'm definitely waiting for a remote display... the outputs aren't exactly optimal either.
I agree with you on the industrial styling of the LM-1. I'm going to get it hidden as fast I can as well. I am planning on using a basic Autometer Phantom Air/Fuel Ratio Meter to provide a graphic display of what the WBO2 is reading. For this particular meter, it is looking for a signal in the range of 0 to 1V. According to the documentation, .500V is 14.7:1 A/F Ratio. Each LED is .050V, so I would be looking for 10 LEDs if I was running at 14.7:1 (though I will never tune it to run this lean).
Lean = .050 to .249V
Stoich = .250 to .749V
Rich = .750 to 1.000V

Now I just need to mount the O2 boss in my exhaust and figure out how to scale the output from the LM-1. I'm not planning on using any filters at this time, but I'll see how everything works out (if the meter can handle the fast updates, noise, etc.). I might need to "smooth" it out so that it isn't just another fancy light display (I already have enough of them )

Tim
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Old 09-16-2003, 09:08 AM   #186
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Quote:
Originally posted by TBeck2000
<snip>
I might need to "smooth" it out so that it isn't just another fancy light display (I already have enough of them )

Tim [/b]
There is a beta version of the firmware and configuration software that will allow you to set the rate at which the analog outputs change. Once that becomes available, you'll be able to set the speed of your "light display" to your liking.

Regards,
Jon
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Old 09-16-2003, 09:15 AM   #187
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What you need to do is adjust the signal between the wideband to the Autometer A/F meter so that if you are at your desired a/f (i.e. 10.8:1) it will be right in the middle of the green.

Then, maybe the low end of the green would be 10:1 and the upper end would be like 11.5:1. That way you are really getting a quick display of the a/f ration you are interested in...

Anything higher or lower goes into the yellow or red... That would be nifty...

The problem is that the input signal into the Autometer is not linear...
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Old 09-16-2003, 09:34 AM   #188
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That's a good idea. I could scale the output so that 0.250V=13:1 and 0.750V=10:1 and then the unit should just extrapolate to hit the points outside of the range. I'm going to be tuning to hit 11.5:1 A/F, so that would put me squarely in the middle of the display:

BTW, I'm not going to use the meter to tune my AFR, I'm just using it to keep tabs on things while the LM-1 is tucked away. I'll keep it semi-accessible so that I can hit the record button to make logs when I feel like it.

Jon - I'll have to check out the new firmware when it's released. Sounds like this unit is more capable than I initially thought it was.

Tim
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Old 09-16-2003, 10:07 AM   #189
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Quote:
Originally posted by TBeck2000
That's a good idea. I could scale the output so that 0.250V=13:1 and 0.750V=10:1 and then the unit should just extrapolate to hit the points outside of the range. I'm going to be tuning to hit 11.5:1 A/F, so that would put me squarely in the middle of the display:
I'm not sure what you'd be accomplishing by setting up the analog outs in that way. From the skimpy documentation provided by Autometer, it appears that the LEDs light up for every change of .05V. Setting it up in the way you describe would only use 10 of the 20 LEDs on the display.

You could always configure .05V to be 10:1 and 1V to by 22.05:1. This will result in the LEDs lighting up as follows:

V /AFR
0.05 /10
0.1 /10.6342
0.15 /11.2684
0.2 /11.9026
0.25 /12.5368
0.3 /13.171
0.35 /13.8052
0.4 /14.4394
0.45 /15.0736
0.5 /15.7078
0.55 /16.342
0.6 /16.9762
0.65 /17.6104
0.7 /18.2446
0.75 /18.8788
0.8 /19.513
0.85 /20.1472
0.9 /20.7814
0.95 /21.4156
1 /22.0498

Of course, you can interpolate between any two values if you like.
If you're tuning to 11.5:1, then .05V for 10:1 and 1V for 20:1 produces a value fairly close to 11.5:

V /AFR
0.05 /10
0.1 /10.5263
0.15 /11.0526
0.2 /11.5789
0.25 /12.1052
0.3 /12.6315
0.35 /13.1578
0.4 /13.6841
0.45 /14.2104
0.5 /14.7367
0.55 /15.263
0.6 /15.7893
0.65 /16.3156
0.7 /16.8419
0.75 /17.3682
0.8 /17.8945
0.85 /18.4208
0.9 /18.9471
0.95 /19.4734
1 /19.9997

Sorry this was so long. I hope this helps.

Regards,
Jon
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Old 09-16-2003, 10:20 AM   #190
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Another way of doing this would be to program the outputs of the LM-1 to 1V = 10:1 AFR and 2V = 20:1 AFR. Connect the output of the LM-1 to a 2V panel voltmeter and the display will read 1.00 for 10.0, 1.15 for 11.5, 2.00 for 20.0, etc. From what I've seen, some of these panel voltmeters allow you to connect whichever decimal point you wish to use. In that case the display would be correct with 10.0 for 10:1 and 20.0 for 20:1.

FWIW,

Jon
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Old 09-16-2003, 10:37 AM   #191
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Quote:
I could scale the output so that 0.250V=13:1 and 0.750V=10:1 and then the unit should just extrapolate to hit the points outside of the range.
Jon - Won't the LM-1 extrapolate a curve once I provide it with 2 known (x,y) points? Or does it use the values provided as a cut off so that you don't get any output above and below? I want to model the points on the curve "y=-6x + 14.5", where x=voltage and y=AFR.

This will make the range of the guage for 0V to 1V = 14.5 to 8.5 AFR, with the 11.5 AFR target right in the middle of the gauge. I guess if it won't extrapolate values, it will still interpolate, right? If so, I will just set 0V=14.5 and 1V=8.5. Is that possible? This will let me use the full range of the meter and still provide me with 13:1 and 10:1 at each end of the "stoich" range on the meter.

Tim
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Old 09-16-2003, 10:47 AM   #192
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Quote:
Originally posted by TBeck2000
If so, I will just set 0V=14.5 and 1V=8.5. Is that possible? This will let me use the full range of the meter and still provide me with 13:1 and 10:1 at each end of the "stoich" range on the meter.

Tim [/b]
Ahh. I see what you're trying to do. Yes, you can set it up 0V=14.5 and 1V=8.5. This will technically allow you to use the whole meter, but AFAIK, the LM-1 won't react down to 8.5:1 so you're not likely to get to use the bottom few LEDs on the meter which is probably not a big deal to you I'm guessing.

You should also be aware that the values you enter when programming the LM-1 may change due to rounding. For example, you will enter 0V and get .001V, and 1V will get you 1.001V.

Let us know how it works out.

Regards,

Jon
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Old 09-16-2003, 10:51 AM   #193
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Quote:
Originally posted by TBeck2000
Jon - Won't the LM-1 extrapolate a curve once I provide it with 2 known (x,y) points? Or does it use the values provided as a cut off so that you don't get any output above and below?
Oops! Almost missed this.



As you can see, the output doesn't extrapolate. Rather, it stays constant at the value you enter for each end point.

Regards,
Jon
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Old 09-16-2003, 10:57 AM   #194
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The problem still remains that the Autometer a/f meter is not linear per this:

It is calibrated to take the non-linear output of the sensor and display it correctly with LED's. So, even if you do set up the output from the LM-1, it won't display correctly.
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Old 09-16-2003, 11:03 AM   #195
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Au contraire... The manual itself says that each LED in the meter is equal to 0.05V (in other words, linear). The output that I will be getting from the LM-1 will also be linear.

The graph is showing a typical narrow-band O2 sensor voltage response to changing AFR. They included this in the manual to explain to the user why their new meter is just going to be a light show (IMO). I'm planning on making the gauge a little more accurate than the typical narrow-band light show, but not quite as good as the LED panel voltmeter that misterblu referenced earlier.

We'll see if it works out. If not, I'll deal with it.

Tim
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Old 09-16-2003, 11:05 AM   #196
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Quote:
Originally posted by 2000vfr800
[b]The problem still remains that the Autometer a/f meter is not linear per this:
...
Sorry, that's not correct.

" The A/F Ratio Meter is a voltmeter with a range of 0 to 1 Volt. The meter displays the output voltage of the vehicles oxygen sensor through 20 LED's. The first LED will come on at a voltage of .050V, the second at .100V, the third at .150V, etc."

and


"Since the oxygen sensor output is non-liner and very sensitive at the stoichiometric A/F ratio "

So the Autometer gauge does indeed have the LEDs arranged linearly, but a NBo2 is non linear. The graph you provide describes the output of a typical NBo2. The only thing that I can see that "calibrates" the Autometer are the ranges printed onto the face of the gauge itself ie. Lean, Stoich,Rich.

From Autometer's site:

http://www.autometer.com/hp/techtips.../air_fuel.html


FWIW,
Jon
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Old 09-16-2003, 11:06 AM   #197
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Quote:
Originally posted by TBeck2000
Au contraire... The manual itself says that each LED in the meter is equal to 0.05V (in other words, linear). The output that I will be getting from the LM-1 will also be linear.

The graph is showing a typical narrow-band O2 sensor voltage response to changing AFR. They included this in the manual to explain to the user why their new meter is just going to be a light show (IMO). I'm planning on making the gauge a little more accurate than the typical narrow-band light show, but not quite as good as the LED panel voltmeter that misterblu referenced earlier.

We'll see if it works out. If not, I'll deal with it.

Tim
Yeah. What he said.
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Old 09-16-2003, 11:10 AM   #198
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It is the NBO2 whose output is not linear. The gauge steps are linear.
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Old 09-16-2003, 11:13 AM   #199
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Take a look at this sample meter output which is "normal operation for most computer controlled vehicles" according to: http://www.autometer.com/hp/techtips.../air_fuel.html

It just cracks me up that people try to "tune" using a display like that

Tim
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Old 09-16-2003, 11:16 AM   #200
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Ah...yes... You guys are right. I'm wrong. Sorry about that...
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