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Old 08-15-2003, 07:49 PM   #276
Cabal
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Quote:
Originally posted by STiBro
Yeah your right, next time I go to buy a car, I'm going to take and dyno it during the test drive, thereby trashing an unbroken-in motor.
Alternatively, you could take a look in the owner's manual. Subaru will be more than happy to mail you one if you'd like, too.
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Old 08-15-2003, 08:11 PM   #277
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Quote:
Originally posted by RichQY
no one is whining.

just that 30 hp loose after reflash is ridiculous.
Rich, you're out in left field. Aunt Bea is calling you for dinner. She wanted to know what you did with her 30 imaginary horsepower.
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Old 08-15-2003, 09:27 PM   #278
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Originally posted by Cabal

Alternatively, you could take a look in the owner's manual. Subaru will be more than happy to mail you one if you'd like, too.
Tell me you're implying that if one reads the OM, it'll say to use 93 or 94 octane...go ahead, tell me that's why you said that.
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Old 08-16-2003, 11:54 AM   #279
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I am pinging on 93. So, screw 93, like Subaru said...
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Old 08-16-2003, 01:07 PM   #280
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Quote:
Originally posted by Porter
Rich, you're out in left field. Aunt Bea is calling you for dinner. She wanted to know what you did with her 30 imaginary horsepower.
i didn't come up w/ that number.

ppl are calling me whining for loosing some hp..

10 hp is nothing.. 30 will be unacceptable
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Old 08-16-2003, 01:18 PM   #281
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Quote:
Originally posted by RichQY
10 hp is nothing.. 30 will be unacceptable
Remember, Ford had a class-action lawsuit thrown at them (not to mention the horrible PR that went with it all) over 15 hp, I think it was, in the Cobra...!

The grounds for the suit, which ended up getting settled out of court IIRC, is that the horsepower difference between advertised and actual was tantamount to false advertising....

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Old 08-16-2003, 02:18 PM   #282
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exactly thats why hyundai had to recliam their Tiburon's hp to 170 from 220.
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Old 08-17-2003, 01:11 AM   #283
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Without any dyno graphs of before and after all this discussion about hp loss is moot. Lets wait till we see what, if any, the losses are. Speculation is going to get us no where.
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Old 08-17-2003, 02:06 AM   #284
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Well i think it bull**** my car pings on 93 with some boosters but is ok on problend.I mean i ordered a car with a 300 hp add.I never have not seen one mag say there test car had det.I had a wrx and like someone said you can make 300hp with the 2.0 ej20.The STI has more cc and parts well maybe except for the pistons like are they forged or not thats a whole diff thing.I guess what im so pissed abought is if i do any thing abought it i have not coverage at a dealership oo yea mine sux anyway becpuse i had to drive 3 hours to get a car i had 1,000 doolers on since 3/10/03 to get 6/25/from a dealer in a diff state.I love Subaru the WRX sold my but why rush a car out that is not ready and why not say what it is from the get go.Im not being harsh i dont thing i mean im not saleing the car it is less trouble the my 71 camero with a pushrod 400 on some spray.And i do have a POS 82 Malibo wagon to drive.I gesss hell ill take a knife to this thing go all out take it apart and hotrod it.I know i went on on this but hell i did give 30,000 for a car that dets and is guessed on on ever prob it has.grrrr.I know i will get some flames on this but is that worse then det we caint hear oo thATS A DIFF THING ALL TOGETER SILENT DET THE ONLY KIND YOU SHOULD REALLY HAVE TO WORRY ABOUGHT.




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Old 08-17-2003, 02:15 AM   #285
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You do know there is a fix right? I'm not really sure what you were trying to say since I don't have the time or energy to decipher your grammar and spelling.
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Old 08-17-2003, 02:27 AM   #286
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Originally posted by Darwood
You do know there is a fix right? I'm not really sure what you were trying to say since I don't have the time or energy to decipher your grammar and spelling.
My grammers not great but i got a car just like yours and more cars more cars i build and tune.I guess the old saying is right if you want something done right do it your self.Have fun in your rent a car when you have your reflash.If your dealership will give you one since i know thats were you will be ever time you need to have anything done
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Old 08-17-2003, 02:54 AM   #287
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Quote:
Originally posted by ZenBoy
Remember, Ford had a class-action lawsuit thrown at them (not to mention the horrible PR that went with it all) over 15 hp, I think it was, in the Cobra...!

The grounds for the suit, which ended up getting settled out of court IIRC, is that the horsepower difference between advertised and actual was tantamount to false advertising....
Awesome, because a lawsuit is just the reward Subaru deserves for finally bringing the STi over here

I'm sure that would go a long way towards ensuring that Subaru brings other performance models over here in the future... </sarcasm>
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Old 08-17-2003, 03:49 AM   #288
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Originally posted by WickedSTI
Have fun in your rent a car when you have your reflash.If your dealership will give you one since i know thats were you will be ever time you need to have anything done
Are you implying that I have to take my car to the dealership since I am to inept to do my own maintenance and repairs? Interesting.

So you have the equipment to create new firmware for the STi as well as the equipment to flash the ECU? Cool. Can I borrow it?
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Old 08-17-2003, 01:33 PM   #289
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Quote:
Originally posted by ForceFed4
Awesome, because a lawsuit is just the reward Subaru deserves for finally bringing the STi over here

I'm sure that would go a long way towards ensuring that Subaru brings other performance models over here in the future... </sarcasm>
It will help ensure that Subaru and the rest of manufacturers selling products in the US represent their products honestly and accurately. You sound like you don't mind being lied to.

And it's a good thing you're not president of SOA. At the board meeting, it seems like you'd say, "Oh shoot, they didn't let us sell them a car that's not acceptably tuned. Instead of tuning the cars properly, we'll teach them a lesson, yes loose millions of dollars of profit or SOA, and not give them an STi next year."

There's a very important reason for enforcing this stuff. It holds manufacturers to a high standard of integrity for selling products in the US.
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Old 08-17-2003, 01:37 PM   #290
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There's a very important reason for enforcing this stuff. It holds manufacturers to a high standard of integrity for selling products in the US.
Couldn't have said it better myself.

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Old 08-17-2003, 02:38 PM   #291
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Quote:
Originally posted by STiBro
Instead of tuning the cars properly, we'll teach them a lesson, yes loose millions of dollars of profit or SOA, and not give them an STi next year."

There's a very important reason for enforcing this stuff. It holds manufacturers to a high standard of integrity for selling products in the US.
Well, that depends on how you defined "tuned properly". Personally, I don't consider "tuned for the lowest common denominator" = "tuned properly". And let's face it, crappy CA gas is the LCD here. Since 95% of the rest of the country can get 93 octane, why should we be punished because CA has made poor choices based on environmental activism?

It would be a completely different situation if the STi wasn't making advertised horsepower on regular premium gas, but if the numbers were generated assuming 93 octane (a reasonable choice given that premium IS 93 in most of the country), well, than those markets which do not have 93 shouldn't be terribly surprised if they make a bit less.

I've seen many cars with lower rated horsepower when the "CA market package" (or equivalent) is selected.

If it's simply an issue of Subaru publicizing the fact that the STi makes less HP on crappy 91, well, I can sympathize with that, Subaru should say 305 HP on 93 octane fuel, 29X on 91... But California still needs to get back into reality. You are not the center of this country, you made your own decisions that limited you to crappy gas, and I see no reason for the rest of the country to have to deal with watered-down products because of one state, sorry. The only reason CA gets away with it at all is because it is a large state. If RI decided to sell nothing higher than 87 octane, do you really think automakers would start tuning cars to 87 octane and nothing higher? Heck no, because one state, even a self-important, large one (this is not directed to any individual Californians here, just the general attitude the state seems to exude as a whole) should not be able to dictate what is "standard" in this country.

And I totally don't expect any Californian to agree with me, but let's face it, if CA had the same gas as the rest of the country, would this discussion even be happening?

Last edited by ForceFed4; 08-17-2003 at 02:50 PM.
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Old 08-17-2003, 02:46 PM   #292
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But I thought that there were people pinging on 93 and 94 octane gas.
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Old 08-17-2003, 03:06 PM   #293
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Unless I'm mistaken, the pinging issue and the "cars run on 91 make less HP" issues are separate entities.

There is a fix for the pinging, as the rest of this thread discusses, though many seem afraid that it will reduce the HP made, though no-one has reported as such.

Noone has busted out the dyno sheets to prove it doesn't either though.

If it were my STi, I know I'd sacrifice a couple horsepower to know my car wasn't detonating though.

But, it's fashionable these days to blast any move a carmaker makes. All these people screamed in to buy a brand new model (for this market), with a brand-new motor (for any market), and now that there's a couple teething problems some people are getting mad. Persoanlly, I'd like to know what they were thinking buying the first alocations of a first-year release car is they wanted absolute perfection.

The same thing happened with the WRX; if you check my register date and car, you can probably figure out that I have a 1st allocation WRX, and I (with all the other early WRX owners) went through similar issues with that car. Like now, some people then screamed bloody murder, and lawsuit this, lawsuit that... some of us chose to let Subaru actually FIX the problems, and enjoy the great car they finally brought to our market. Now, you might argue that all the people screaming are what motivated Subaru to do the fixes, and that I do not know. I can only say that my experiences with Subaru have been excellent, and if that is any metric, I'm sure that SOA is a company with enough integrity to come out with the fixes on their own. I was also extremely lucky to buy from a very good dealer, as some of the dealer expeiences people on this board have had are totally unacceptable, and if there's one area that I think Subaru should improve, it's on policing its own dealers.
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Old 08-17-2003, 03:50 PM   #294
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darwood
Without any dyno graphs of before and after all this discussion about hp loss is moot. Lets wait till we see what, if any, the losses are. Speculation is going to get us no where.

Couldnt have said it better myself!

Like I told everyone before, I am going to a AWD Dyno Day on 8/30. (in just 2 weeks) I will post before and after ECU reflash Dyno results on that very same evening. From 2 seperate cars, there will be some variations because of the time of year the cars were Dynoed will be 3 months apart and its hotter than the blazes of heck here now, but it should at least shed a little light.

I plan to scan the charts, set up a place to host them, and let everyone see them forthemselves. Hopefully it will bring some clarity to this "reflash" situation.

So everyone just chill, the data is forth coming!
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Old 08-17-2003, 04:12 PM   #295
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Quote:
Originally posted by ForceFed4


Well, that depends on how you defined "tuned properly". Personally, I don't consider "tuned for the lowest common denominator" = "tuned properly". And let's face it, crappy CA gas is the LCD here. Since 95% of the rest of the country can get 93 octane, why should we be punished because CA has made poor choices based on environmental activism?
All I can say to this method of thinking is wrong, wrong, WRONG. In engineering you ALWAYS .. I repeat ALWAYS design for the 'lowest common denominator' when it comes to whatever you are designing things for. In the computer industry even giants like Microsoft kept backwards compatibility with 16-bit applications for almost 10 years after people started developing for 32-bit applications. I could sight many other engineering examples where they have to design to the 'lowest common denominator'. Don't you think bridge designers design bridges to that VERY UNLIKELY situation in which the bridge will be full of semi-trucks and cars? Or do you think the engineering company just says 'Eh ... we don't need to worry about that less than 1% chance scenerio happening' .

And as far as this 95% of the country having 93+ octane gas I have to call BS. I know PERSONALLY (from road tripping) that the following states do NOT sell anything more than 91 octane except in a VERY few number of places (only in a select few places in major towns): CA, AZ, NM, TX, CO, UT. I also know that you can, commonly, only get 92 octane in NE, KS and IA. Just doing some rough math that is almost 20% of the states that I ALONE PERSONALLY have gone through don't have 93+ gas. And don't even get me started on the 'generally' poorer quality fuel levels along small interstate stops as compared to large cities. I put almost 35,000 miles on my last WRX with 2 different knock/detonation gauges and I can personally attest to this. You would be floored if you saw how detuned some of the maps (on my UTEC) I had to make to get rid of detonation when I went on road trips.

And if you want to hear somthing REALLY scary. On a road trip from Colorado Springs to Plano TX (where Cobb used to be) the Absolute best gas you could get for 500 miles of that trip was 90 octane .

Personally I live in Colorado Springs and luckily there is 1 gas station in town that sells 93 octane, but I am nervous as hell as to what happens when that gas station decides to stop selling it. Your stance is a very easy one to take when you have the luxory of going down to your local gas station and getting 93 or even [gasp] 94 octane... but you tend to look at things a bit differently when all you have access to is 91 octane.

What we really need is someone to dyno their car for a pre-flash baseline, get their car reflashed and then go back and have it dynoed on the same tank of gas etc... to see what differences there will be. OR better yet just have Subaru step up to the plate and be honest with us about what they changed.
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Old 08-17-2003, 05:08 PM   #296
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Thank you davidm_sh, I agree with everything you wrote. And yes, I've been across the country several times, and have noticed max octanes of only 90 myself. Granted, in the middle of f'n' nowhere.

Let's also keep in mind that this ol' cheesy state represents 12.2% of the US population (taken from 2002 census numbers). I'm totally guessing, but I'd be willing to bet (a little) that the number of gas stations carrying 94 octane are less than the total number of gas stations in California. In other words, I know that Sunoco 94 is found in Massachusetts (population 6.4 million), and other Eastern states, but it's not all that wide spread.

ForceFed4, I go agree with your position on CA's low octane screwing things up for the rest of the country, but your "CA market package" seems like the ideal solution, all considered with the current situation. Conversely speaking, if some of the states weren't carrying 93 or 94 octane, this debate wouldn't be taking place for that reason either.

Nevertheless, I agree with the fact that CA hasn't considered the rest of the country's octane availability, and the negative repercussions on car makers (the number one reason, I'd think). Realistically, while CA is being cheesy on the octane, they're relying on the knowledge of automakers to compensate accordingly. It shouldn't screw up the rest of the country. It's the automaker's responsibility! They've been having to follow CA emissions standards (making cars solely designed to be sold in CA) for many years, they can surely add the octane factor into their tuning as well.

Bottom line, I very much wish CA would at least go back to the 92 octane that we've had available for at least the last 20 years (up until last year).

I'm a little confused. Why is it that Union 76 can sell 100 octane gas in barrels, but not have 93 or 94 octane available at the pump? What are the regulations, really? Does the government say, "You can sell any octane you want, but if it's over 91, it can't be dispensed at the pump"?
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Old 08-17-2003, 07:23 PM   #297
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i think 76 sells it in the drums because they will be makin more money that way. i live in so cal and i have found a gas station that sells 110 unleaded gas AT THE PUMP. i was thinkin of trying this, hopefully this will stop the DET, but i cant afford 110 octane every time i need to fill up. and when is this reflash supposed to become available? i have taken my car to 2 subie dealers in my area (one being the place i bought it from) and they still have not heard anything about this and have no fix for it. they just tell me to run on like 94+ octane gas. how can i get word of the reflash to my dealer?
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Old 08-17-2003, 08:34 PM   #298
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Originally posted by aLL-tRuBo [STi]
i think 76 sells it in the drums because they will be makin more money that way. i live in so cal and i have found a gas station that sells 110 unleaded gas AT THE PUMP. i was thinkin of trying this, hopefully this will stop the DET, but i cant afford 110 octane every time i need to fill up. and when is this reflash supposed to become available? i have taken my car to 2 subie dealers in my area (one being the place i bought it from) and they still have not heard anything about this and have no fix for it. they just tell me to run on like 94+ octane gas. how can i get word of the reflash to my dealer?
Hold the phone!

You dont want to run straight 110, its hard on your seals!

Also, make sure the 110 is UNLEADED, because if you get leaded 110, you can kiss your brand new O2's and CAT's goodbye!

Now if the 110 is UNLEADED, you can mix 2 or 3 gallons with the rest 91 and come out with 94 or higher octane.

I do exactly that, I mix Sunoco GT Plus 109 Unleaded, 3 Gallons with the rest 91. ON track days I mix 5 Gallons of 109 with the rest 91.

Your dealer needs to contact SOA, or you can, and give them the name of your dealers, and let SOA do the rest.

Good luck!

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Old 08-17-2003, 08:37 PM   #299
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I'm sure the reason that they don't commit a pump to 100 octane is because there's such a small market for it. Those pump needs to pump gas that a lot of people are going to use. But I'm speaking about 100 fuel. I'm trying to understand why the CA government has an objection to gas companies selling higher octane fuels.
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Old 08-17-2003, 08:55 PM   #300
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Here's an interesting article on the story behind the 91 octane. Also describes what pinging is pretty well:

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/ed..._technobabble/
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