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Old 08-17-2003, 08:24 PM   #301
ForceFed4
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Quote:
Originally posted by davidm_sh
All I can say to this method of thinking is wrong, wrong, WRONG. In engineering you ALWAYS .. I repeat ALWAYS design for the 'lowest common denominator' when it comes to whatever you are designing things for. In the computer industry even giants like Microsoft kept backwards compatibility with 16-bit applications for almost 10 years after people started developing for 32-bit applications. I could sight many other engineering examples where they have to design to the 'lowest common denominator'. Don't you think bridge designers design bridges to that VERY UNLIKELY situation in which the bridge will be full of semi-trucks and cars? Or do you think the engineering company just says 'Eh ... we don't need to worry about that less than 1% chance scenerio happening' .
I'm not saying it isn't common practice, I'm saying that to produce the best performing "mini-supercar" Subaru should not tune to 91 octane gas and leave it at that. Since 93 or 94 octane gas is available in a significant area of the country (okay, 95% is probably a gross exaggeration, I admit), there's no reason Subaru shouldn't design the car to use that when it can to make more power.

Your example of MS is poor; how many problems/compromises were there with Win 9X simply because they tried to maintain that huge backwards compatibility? I really don't think that's a great example of how things are "supposed" to work. The bridge thing is a completely different situation, not applicable, as tuning for 93+ octane does not imply not tuning for 91 octane with today's multi-map ECUs. Complaining that the car does better/makes more power with 93 octane is like complaining that $15/lb filet tastes better than $2/lb chuck roast...

Now should Subaru have advertised the STi with HP humbers from octane 91 gas; maybe, maybe not. I still say it's fine for them to advertise 305 HP w/ 93 octane as long as they're upfront that it may make less on crappier gas. I guess they didn't do that, but I hardly think it's worth a lawsuit, considering everything else about the STi that is exactly what all us Subaru fans had hoped for (and more). We didn't get a watered-down "kiddie" version of the STi, we got the most powerful version in the world; squabbling over a handful of horsepower seems a little pale in comparison to that. Even on 91 it bet it makes more HP than the overseas versions.

Hell, I would kill for the very car a significant people are on here bitching and moaning about, but I can't justify the debt when I have a perfectly good WRX, so maybe that's coloring how I see all the guys complaining, but still...

And STiBro: It looks like we probably have a fairly similar outlook on the situation. I understand that by being in CA, you're personally affected by the gas issue, and I guess I'd be upset about it too if it were my car.
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Old 08-17-2003, 09:02 PM   #302
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Quote:
Originally posted by ForceFed4
Unless I'm mistaken, the pinging issue and the "cars run on 91 make less HP" issues are separate entities.

issue is will reflash cause a major HP loss.
not likely.. but if so.. we need to know.

if it's too dramatic.. it need to be dealt with


this is my concern. not sure about anything else

290 on 91 is fine by me. not hyundaiish 220--->170
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Old 08-17-2003, 09:33 PM   #303
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If I may add, most turbo car's hp figures are advertised on what they make on 93 octane - the Evo also is advertised that way. It's 271hp figures are on 93, and it makes less on 91 too. I'm sure all of the premium-gas-only vehicles in the U.S. are that way. And given that different gas station's gas is better or worse, even if the rating is the same, there's no way to totally guarantee any hp figure, no matter the area. Manufacturers do what they can.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
www.apexjapan.com
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Old 08-18-2003, 01:59 AM   #304
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Post What's the Word ?

After reading through 11 pages of thread, I can't help but still feel confused.

Some people experience no det at all.
Some people experience no det with 93 octane
Some people experience det with 93 octane
Some people experience det with 91 octane

I don't recall if anyone has NO det with 91 ???

For those of you that are mixing toulene/race fuel----are any of you guys still getting any det issues ???

Since I'm only at 450 miles, I haven't really gotten a chance to get on it that much. But the few times I did approach 4k.....not what I wanted to hear

I guess it could suck to live here in CA, but then when I read that people are experiencing the same thing on 93 octane.....I just think it's nice to live 30min from the beach and 30min from the mountains.

It's hard for me to imagine that there may be some STi's out there that do not experience anything at all. This issue seems VERY widespread regardless of what gas you have access to.

I guess we will all wait and see the dyno plot from "Porter" and see what's doing.

Bimmerod


P.S.- Porter < Try not to fudge the numbers on those dyno plots...hehe
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Old 08-18-2003, 03:21 AM   #305
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ok heres my boring grunts again..

just took the car out.

was 11 PM pacific time 70 degrees outside.. feels really breezy.

took the car to a road that just got paved ..

it was so smooth and quiet i can hear my bypass vavle dumping noise.. i got so excited cuz i thought i d never hear it w/o taking off the resonator. as i did more of that..

55-60 mph 5 th gear? i heard some tapping noise.. same volume as the Psh psh which was kinda hard to pick up unless you pay good deal of attention. very distinct.. i was so sure it wasn't road noise cuz that road was so damn smooth...

i replicated the tapping noise countless times... they all happened around 3000 rpm.. As soon as i let off throttle, they disappeared..


so....

no more <3500 rpm break ins.. i am bringing it in ASAP for Reflash.

Running Chevron 91 btw. paid god damn 2.05 per gallon for it..

Last edited by RichQY; 08-18-2003 at 03:31 AM.
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Old 08-18-2003, 07:20 AM   #306
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Rich is about to be converted... he's going to the "reflash dark side"...

I think you'll like the results Rich.
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Old 08-18-2003, 08:13 AM   #307
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Quote:
Originally posted by davidm_sh


All I can say to this method of thinking is wrong, wrong, WRONG. In engineering you ALWAYS .. I repeat ALWAYS design for the 'lowest common denominator' when it comes to whatever you are designing things for. In the computer industry even giants like Microsoft kept backwards compatibility with 16-bit applications for almost 10 years after people started developing for 32-bit applications. I could sight many other engineering examples where they have to design to the 'lowest common denominator'. Don't you think bridge designers design bridges to that VERY UNLIKELY situation in which the bridge will be full of semi-trucks and cars? Or do you think the engineering company just says 'Eh ... we don't need to worry about that less than 1% chance scenerio happening' .
The car still runs on 91...it just doesn't provide maximum horsepower and pings a little, which hasn't even been proven to be damaging. And, "in engineering" you don't always design for the "lowest common denominator." You do a risk/cost analysis that tells you when to stop OVERengineering your product. If Subaru doesn't think that this pinging is damaging the motors enough that they will need to replace a significant number under warranty, they're not going to advertise this thing as a recall, because the cost of fixing the problem is more than the cost of letting the problem happen.

I agree that it would be much better for the car not to ping at all all the way down to 87 octane. Hopefully the new ECU map will take care of this. I haven't had the problem yet (2000 miles), but I would reflash my ECU today, if I didn't have to demonstrate the problem to the dealer first.

In the meantime...an unpopular suggestion. I'd love to see car makers go back to selling CA cars and US cars. That way, US cars can get the full performance, and CA gets to deal with their own problems, rather than bring the entire country down to their level. Is there a good reason why 93+ isn't available in CA?
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Old 08-18-2003, 09:27 AM   #308
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Quote:
Originally posted by ForceFed4
I still say it's fine for them to advertise 305 HP w/ 93 octane as long as they're upfront that it may make less on crappier gas. I guess they didn't do that, but I hardly think it's worth a lawsuit, considering everything else about the STi that is exactly what all us Subaru fans had hoped for (and more). We didn't get a watered-down "kiddie" version of the STi, we got the most powerful version in the world; squabbling over a handful of horsepower seems a little pale in comparison to that. Even on 91 it bet it makes more HP than the overseas versions.
I COMPLETELY agree. I wouldn't mind one bit if the car made 320hp on 93/94 octane... BUT I think it should make the advertised 300hp/300tq on 91 octane as a baseline number, but you are correct in that we should be happy we finally got a STi that is more powerful than what the rest of the world gets.
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Old 08-18-2003, 09:39 AM   #309
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Quote:
Originally posted by davidm_sh


I COMPLETELY agree. I wouldn't mind one bit if the car made 320hp on 93/94 octane... BUT I think it should make the advertised 300hp/300tq on 91 octane as a baseline number, but you are correct in that we should be happy we finally got a STi that is more powerful than what the rest of the world gets.
why stop at 91? I'm sure there are some gas stations out there that only have 87. or 86. you get the point, I'm sure.

Just in case, the point is: the car makes 300hp if you provide the proper fuel. it makes less on lesser fuel. This is just like every other car on the planet.

The only issue here is whether or not the car is being damaged on the lower octane fuel.
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Old 08-18-2003, 12:36 PM   #310
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Quote:
Originally posted by davidm_sh


I COMPLETELY agree. I wouldn't mind one bit if the car made 320hp on 93/94 octane... BUT I think it should make the advertised 300hp/300tq on 91 octane as a baseline number, but you are correct in that we should be happy we finally got a STi that is more powerful than what the rest of the world gets.
Well it would be great if the car did make 320hp on 94 octane because that's the only gas i've filled my car up with. But there's a slight problem, it's confirmed (from a reputable tuner, dealership will be next!) that my STi pings from 2500-4000rpm on Sunoco Ultra 94 octane gasoline. I was so sure and kind of in denial that my STi wasn't/wouldn't ping with 94 but lo and behold, it does. People from Long Island or East Coast that can fill up with 94, don't be so confident that it will not ping. I was and it took me to long to realize that it really does. ECU reflash, here i come.

Oh, and the det happens anywhere between 50-100% throttle application applied. Not to thrilled to say the least. I just threw a TXS stealthback exhaust on too
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Old 08-18-2003, 01:22 PM   #311
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Quote:
Originally posted by Porter
Rich is about to be converted... he's going to the "reflash dark side"...

I think you'll like the results Rich.
i was destined for the reflash.. never thought i needed it this early.
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Old 08-18-2003, 01:30 PM   #312
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Quote:
Originally posted by STiBro


Dude, how lame are you? What a stupid comment. No flames intended. Are you in sales? If so, you sound like a crook.

Yeah your right, next time I go to buy a car, I'm going to take and dyno it during the test drive, thereby trashing an unbroken-in motor.
heh, i'd actually make a poor salesman b/c i'm TOO honest.

So I sound like i'm in sales and a crook... it's funny that you put those together b/c we all have impressions that most salesmen lie to us, or at least don't tell us the whole truth. And isn't that the point of "caveat emptor?" Let's face it big companies and salesmen make mistakes and sometimes just plain lie to us. I don't think it's right and I don't support it, but unfortunately, that's how it is, and we, the consumer have to deal with it.

Yes, I believe SOA should have been more straight forward to consumers (especially in CA) about the STi requiring 93 octane, or better yet, they should have engineered the car to only require 91. But they didn't. We can blame them all we want, but in the end, we're the ones who bought it. So the question is this, if you knew everything you knew today, would you have still bought the car? Unfortunately, sometimes being the first to have the latest and greatest comes with it's own problems... Luckily we have a forum like this where we can do our research and decide whether we want to give our money to subaru or not.
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Old 08-18-2003, 01:40 PM   #313
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So, why hasn't anyone posted the dyno results yet? Or any official explanation of the flash from SoA? Or at least an official word about if the det is hazzardous to our engines?

I love the STi, best car I EVER owned since 1974. And I am not complaining about SoA, nor interested in any lawsuit. For if THIS is how USA folks react, THINK ON THIS GUYS! You think Sube, Mitsu, or Nissan (for those wishing for the Skyline to ever come here!!!) will ever want to take a chance again to give us the better car? DUH! HECK NO! So lighten up, or we WILL loose out later. All I say though, is that it would be better that they inform us of what the changes are so we can make the decision to flash or not. But I am not about top put the hand that fed me (the best car ever) into the fire.
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Old 08-18-2003, 06:39 PM   #314
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Porter, can I take my car to any Subaru dealership, or do I need to take it to the dealership where I purchased my car to get the reflash done? Thanks.
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Old 08-18-2003, 07:36 PM   #315
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Quote:
Originally posted by imminence
Porter, can I take my car to any Subaru dealership, or do I need to take it to the dealership where I purchased my car to get the reflash done? Thanks.
Any dealership can process your vehicle for the reflash, but not all dealers are up to speed on the process required to submit the claim and the ECM to Subaru. If your dealer isn't clear on what's involved, have them contact their Subaru rep for more information, or they're welcome to call me here at the dealer. My direct line is 678-584-7252. Good luck!
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Old 08-18-2003, 08:05 PM   #316
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Quote:
Originally posted by Porter

Any dealership can process your vehicle for the reflash, but not all dealers are up to speed on the process required to submit the claim and the ECM to Subaru. If your dealer isn't clear on what's involved, have them contact their Subaru rep for more information, or they're welcome to call me here at the dealer. My direct line is 678-584-7252. Good luck!
Porter, you're "da man!" I wish every dealership were like yours!
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Old 08-18-2003, 09:01 PM   #317
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Does the ECU record detonation events, and if so can the dealer access this data with their equipment? I haven't heard any detonation yet, but that doesnt mean it's not occuring.
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Old 08-18-2003, 09:29 PM   #318
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Let me take a guess here. Most of us are going to get the reflash whether or not we want it. There is probably 110 % chance that the reflash is already installed on all allocations since it became available and all future deliveries. Maybe somebody, somewhere can take an early car and a late car and make some sort of comparison. I do know this, all the early cars i know appear to be going slower with time. Also some threads are showing that det is appearing after some miles are put on after an inital period of det free peformance. Include me in this group. In the end only a few hundred cars out of the thousands that will be built will have the original flash. As for me i feel that i have no choice but to get with the program. Gas
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Old 08-18-2003, 09:56 PM   #319
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Quote:
Originally posted by gasguzzler259
I do know this, all the early cars i know appear to be going slower with time. Also some threads are showing that det is appearing after some miles are put on after an inital period of det free peformance. Include me in this group.
Sorry to hear that about your car! I've been reading the posts "filtered" through my experience, and it sounds to me like a number of people have been sharing my experience - that there is some detonation, along with a temporary power drop after the ECU compensates, if we run under 93 octane.

Now, take this FWIW, YMMV, etc., etc., since this is my first turbo car and I've luckily managed to avoid detonation in my years of working with Chevy V-8s. Thus, detonation could give me the wedgie of my life and I wouldn't necessarily recognize it. Based on what I think I've experienced, though, I think my car is fine as long as I run 93+ octane.

BTW, my car was in the second (AFAIK) allocation, manufactured in May.

Zen
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Old 08-18-2003, 10:21 PM   #320
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Quote:
Originally posted by Porter

Any dealership can process your vehicle for the reflash, but not all dealers are up to speed on the process required to submit the claim and the ECM to Subaru. If your dealer isn't clear on what's involved, have them contact their Subaru rep for more information, or they're welcome to call me here at the dealer. My direct line is 678-584-7252. Good luck!
Porter, you are definitely the man.
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Old 08-19-2003, 09:11 AM   #321
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Quote:
Originally posted by ZenBoy

BTW, my car was in the second (AFAIK) allocation, manufactured in May.

Zen
How does one determine which allocation it is?
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Old 08-19-2003, 03:03 PM   #322
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Does this reflash help drivers/cars in california?

Or do the people in california require a more agressive solution.
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Old 08-19-2003, 09:11 PM   #323
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Quote:
Originally posted by STiBro


How does one determine which allocation it is?
Just ballparking it - the first shipments started arriving locally around the third week of May, and AFAIK the second shipments were arriving around July 4th. Maybe there was one more in there ... who knows?

Zen
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Old 08-19-2003, 09:14 PM   #324
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so how do i go about getting my dealer the info on the reflash??i wanna get this done as soon as possible because i wanna be able to drive how i want without hearing the "bb's in the can." any info would be greatly appreciated! thanks, mark
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Old 08-19-2003, 10:14 PM   #325
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Well, Irvine Subaru just sent my ECU in to New Jersey. No hassles, nothing. So hope to get my car back by Thursday. But I ALSO hope that there is no loss in power
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