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Old 08-27-2003, 08:49 AM   #351
Protecnica
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Hi guys,
You may or may not be interested in what I have to say but it may make some sense to you.
We have had quite alot to do with the STi computer in the *** spec 2.0lt. We have mapped it and logged all the timing for the cam control and ignition advance. I can't say for sure how the US spec works but an guessing it to be similar in operation.
Here we go.

The computer in the car gathers a lot of information from various source's ie: air temp before turbo, Air speed and volume, engine temp, manifold air pressure, throttle position, cam positon, Oxygen sensor and from what i can see on the motor we have just got our hands on Exhaust temp. All of this is feed into the computer at speeds that can be above 200 hertz ( 200 times a second). Our computer has a base timeing table of lets say 16 degrees of ignition at 5000 rpm with 4 degress of advance cam timing and 50 percent of fuel injector pulse. The computer will take into account air temp, boost,engine temp and even battery volts and if all is within parameters, will start to increase timing and fuel. From the base timing our ignition curve can go from 16 degress at 5000rpm to 32 degress at 5000rpm. If you had told me this 1 year ago I would have laughed and said see you tomorrow for that new engine rebuild. We can't copy these figures with Motec as the engine would destroy its self in the first 10 minutes of running, but the Sti computer does because it changes so quick from map to map compensating constantly.

This is why some of you experience a slight loss of power sometimes,and possible Detanation as the computer trys to get to its max timming . It dose have a limit and will sit most the time with no problems, if you can notice the next time it happens you can probably pick why it has. You may have just loaded the engine up a small hill or even had a sudden rise in air temp. The biggest reason could be that tank of fuel you just put in the car. We run 98 octain pump fuel here and they just love it.

I hope this makes some sense I didn't want to get to involved in your thread just thought it might take some heat of Porter.

Dan
Protecnica Racing
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Old 08-27-2003, 10:07 AM   #352
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Good info, thanks Dan!
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Old 08-27-2003, 12:46 PM   #353
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All Turbo ... do a Search for (114 octane) Toluene to find out about this relatively inexpensive octane booster ... which is already a major component of pump gas (and over priced Octane Boosters)

here is one Link:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...Octane+Booster
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Old 08-28-2003, 12:59 AM   #354
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i am running this tank out
then it's pure 100 ocatne time!!

i just wanna see if this baby will whine w/ the 100 octane!

currently she s pinging on 93


but damn.. it s gonna cost me 75 $ for that tank.
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Old 08-28-2003, 02:24 AM   #355
all-trubo [STi]
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Default Re: Irvine Subaru is Mod friendly

Quote:
Originally posted by Bimmerod



You will not have any issues with Irvine Subaru. They are very kewl about mods. My 02 had intake, exhaust, IC hoses when it got repaired for the clutch shudder prob. Just talk to Albert, he'll take care of ya.

Bimmerod
yeah thas who i talked too....but i went ahead and took the intake off anyway. i should be gettin back my car tomorrow..so im waiting to see how it runs after.
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Old 08-28-2003, 04:39 AM   #356
Protecnica
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Just one more note about octane boosters.......

Be very carefull what you use as we have found it lowers octane levels in the fuel we run ( Shell Optimax ). It would pay to do some research. Even speak to a chemist with the oil company. It might sound like to much work but it will pay off in the long run. This is the data sheet link below of the fuel we run. I am not sure of you emissions over there and what is available. But it may give you some idea. Your motors have been mapped for the usdm so they should run well on your major brand oil companies high octane fuel.

http://www.shellau.com/oneshell/au/o...ptimax_pds.pdf

Dan
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Old 08-28-2003, 09:56 AM   #357
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Default reflash

Hey guys. Just got my car back yesterday after a reflash. Well, at first I didn't hear any thing, so I was happy. But then about 20 minutes later, it did it again. Not as loud as it used to, but it pinged. Any one else with reflash that still pings? I don't know how long it take for the computer to re-learn, but I'll give it a go for next few days to see what's gona happen. I'm running 91 in CA. I hate the sound of that ping and like to keep my car stock, but may be there is some mod out there that will fix this. Any suggestions?

The dealer I go to doesn't like mods. They got print outs all over that say any mod even K&N will void your warranty. Which is total crap, it wont void it unless it was the cause. So any way, any help will be appreciated

As for power loss after reflash, I don't think it lost any. It feels same as before.

Last edited by drdray; 08-28-2003 at 06:56 PM.
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Old 08-28-2003, 10:54 AM   #358
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Protecnica ... thanks for that info ...

Can you tell us approx. how much toluene (%) is used in typical high octane pump gasoline ...

Your 98 octane is equal to about 94 octane U.S. ... correct?
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Old 08-28-2003, 02:59 PM   #359
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Default dealers in illinois know about this?

I thought to ask this...

has anyone talked to dealers in illinois that know about the pinging problem, and more importantly know about the ECM reflash?

I've been having a hard time convincing them that such a thing exists and even to call Porter about it...*sigh*

Ever pinging,
josh.
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Old 08-28-2003, 08:42 PM   #360
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Default Re-flashed ECU

I had my reflash about a week ago. The power feels the same, but after filling the tank at Costco, I noticed very slight pinging. I don't know if it's just coincidence that I'd just filled the tank when it started or not. Anyway, on my invoice from the reflash it states that the car is designed to run on 93 octane, and since Washington state has only 92, the ECU must learn to use the lower octane. It said that pinging may not cease for up to 4000 miles. I noticed the pinging about three or four times, but have not heard it in the last few days at all. I called the dealer and asked if I should mix the 92 octane gas with 101 trick gas that a few stations have locally ($5.49/gallon), but they said that this would not be a good idea since the ECU will learn to use the better fuel, and will ping again if I went back to straight 92.

Just wanted to share my experience.
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Old 08-29-2003, 01:50 AM   #361
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i was strongly advised not to use Costco gas.
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Old 08-29-2003, 03:37 AM   #362
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Hi makofoto,

We have had a lot of publisity over toluene here. Some companies here use 10%, but what we use has 0 % content of toluene. I am not sure about our 98 being the same as your 94 will have to do some research into that one. Can you get any data sheets off your oil companies? That should tell you the content. If not you can get the fuel you use tested. It only cost us about $40 Au to get ours tested here.

Dan
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Old 08-29-2003, 04:37 AM   #363
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Default Why?

Porter, help me out here because I must be missing something. My car will ping hard on our Cali 91 kerosene and water mix know as gasoline. So I mix 100 octane race fuel 50/50 when driving on the track.

That works good, but now the smart alec ECU thinks it will get that $$$ fuel all the time, so it pings with a vengence for a couple of tanks when only the 91 is used. I prefer a non-pinging street car. Therefore I have been waiting for some others experience with the so called reflash to see what happens. Hoping to flash in the future. Metaphorically speaking.

So now some have reflashed, and it looks like 93 is still required and after awhile, the ECU reads aggressive driving (I confess) habits and notches up the timing. Ping Ping. A replay from the original pre-flash ECU.

So what is our point here? I don't think we are going to see 93 octane in California unless it is home made. Please correct me if I have it wrong and there is a ping cure. Thanks.

Mike McBride
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Old 08-29-2003, 01:32 PM   #364
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man, this is ridiculous, 15+ pages and only about 1 page that talks about feedback from the actual reflash. This is NOT an issue about what if I run higher octane fuel, will the ping go away. This is a production car meant for daily usage. Subaru's engineer made a mistake and they will have to fix it. Sure i may just be a slight ping but none the less it will eventually worry experienced buyers and SOA will have to take care of them. Why do I say that Subaru made a mistake.... check out Vishnu's post in the Factory Force Indution section, besides getting rid of the pinging completely on 91 octane, he gained power and TORQUE on that specific are, not to mention more power overall. That just goes to show that SOA re-flash should be able to fix the ping without diminishing power. Assuming they did it correctly.

On another note, when a manufacturer states that the car will ping ocasionally they actually mean for when u get a bad tank of gas or under considerably high temp. but not everytime you go through the 4k-5k rpm range. That's just plain wrong.
In brief, if ur car pings on 91 just reflash it with SOA's fix. I mean.. come on... is a street car, there should be no need for 100+ octane for daily driving stuff unless the ocassion demands it.

If you plan to upgrade you STi, like me, just wait until ECUtek comes out and when doing the tuning the ping will go away with it. Remember that a professional tuner such as Shiv will never put your engine at risk. I completely trust him with my car.

My 3 cents.
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Old 08-29-2003, 04:43 PM   #365
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Quote:
Originally posted by zacek
man, this is ridiculous, 15+ pages and only about 1 page that talks about feedback from the actual reflash. This is NOT an issue about what if I run higher octane fuel, will the ping go away. This is a production car meant for daily usage. Subaru's engineer made a mistake and they will have to fix it. Sure i may just be a slight ping but none the less it will eventually worry experienced buyers and SOA will have to take care of them. Why do I say that Subaru made a mistake.... check out Vishnu's post in the Factory Force Indution section, besides getting rid of the pinging completely on 91 octane, he gained power and TORQUE on that specific are, not to mention more power overall. That just goes to show that SOA re-flash should be able to fix the ping without diminishing power. Assuming they did it correctly.

On another note, when a manufacturer states that the car will ping ocasionally they actually mean for when u get a bad tank of gas or under considerably high temp. but not everytime you go through the 4k-5k rpm range. That's just plain wrong.
In brief, if ur car pings on 91 just reflash it with SOA's fix. I mean.. come on... is a street car, there should be no need for 100+ octane for daily driving stuff unless the ocassion demands it.

If you plan to upgrade you STi, like me, just wait until ECUtek comes out and when doing the tuning the ping will go away with it. Remember that a professional tuner such as Shiv will never put your engine at risk. I completely trust him with my car.

My 3 cents.
VERY well put.
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Old 08-29-2003, 07:50 PM   #366
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All I can tell you is that all of the folks who have had their STi reflashed here seem satisfied with the results.

I can't really give you any good information about what's proper for a California car. Obviously there is a huge difference between 91 and 94 octane, and though the reflash fixes the problem for the rest of the country, there's no guarantee that it will cure your issue 100% if you live in California. Certainly it would improve the situation.

It seems like a no-brainer to me, I'm not sure why so many people continue to have anxiety attacks over this. The reflash doesn't affect power in any way that I or my customers have been able to determine from the driver's seat, and it improves the margin of safety even on 91 octane.


[subject change]
Personally, I think it's great that at least one manufacturer is stepping up and tuning for the gas that the majority of Americans are using, instead of detuning their vehicle severely nationwide to comply with the whims of the freaks who run CARB and the State of California. As far as I can tell, the bureaucrats at CARB are on a mission to eliminate performance vehicles from the roads of California (and the nation, or so they think) by continually reducing the availability of decent gasoline. The argument about percentages of gasoline and overall demand for premium reducing the octane available seems like a load of hogwash to me. If that were the case, the available octane would be lower in all major metropolitan areas in the country, and that's simply not the case. The STATE of California is different, and I may be completely ignorant of the realities of the situation, but I'm not aware of any rational reason why gasoline companies would change their formulation except as a result of regulation. Think about it... two gas stations a mile apart, one's in California and the other is in a neighboring state, and the fuel octane available is dramatically different. It's a regulatory problem, and the conservatives in California are as much to blame as liberals. Big oil makes big money from selling low octane fuel as "premium", and they can all hold hands with Greenpeace while they stuff millions in their retirement accounts.

That's all I got. My bitch session is over...
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Old 08-29-2003, 08:18 PM   #367
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Hey Porter,

I have a quick question for you man. I'm picking up a 06/03 STi tomorrow and they inform me that they are aware of the reflash, but this car did not need it. Does that sound legit? Any idea what manuf date started shipping with the updated code?

Thanks for all the information, this thread has really erased my concerns over this issue!

-st
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Old 08-29-2003, 08:25 PM   #368
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Quote:
Originally posted by singletrack
Hey Porter,

I have a quick question for you man. I'm picking up a 06/03 STi tomorrow and they inform me that they are aware of the reflash, but this car did not need it. Does that sound legit? Any idea what manuf date started shipping with the updated code?

Thanks for all the information, this thread has really erased my concerns over this issue!

-st
Sorry, I have no clue which build dates have a changeover, or even if there is a changeover. Time will tell.
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Old 08-30-2003, 12:56 AM   #369
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It's only a WRX ... but basically I have a Vishnu Stg. 1 tune with a 94 Octane high boost (17 PSI, stock turbo) EcuTek Shiv Dyno remap (289 crank hp) ... I can run 91 octane without any problem ... have never heard a knock ... it just gets better with 94 octane ...

Shiv is definitely the MAN!
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Old 08-30-2003, 06:42 PM   #370
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there will be some dyno plots posted here i believe. they are from this morning's dyno sessions - compares a stock sti to a SOA reflashed sti - there _is_ a significant change.

no pinging on the reflash yet (after switching to 93/94 oct - thanks again porter). i've ran 3 tanks of gas through it.

a major motivator in getting the reflash was my unfounded belief that i could run readily avaialble pump gas from here in AZ.

based on the dyno runs from this morning and the fact that i need to run 93/94+ octane anyway... i would not have done the reflash. rather, wait for an aftermarket product that maintains sti advertised HP/TQ #s without pinging consistently. seems bass ackwards to me, going to the aftermarket to maintain a manufacturers advertised HP/TQ without grenading your motor.

is it impossible to map this stock motor to ~245WHP on 91 octane? i would gladly pay for that - even if it voided my factory warranty.

mixing race gas adds up to $$ very quickly - in my case like $100 a month - aftermarket reflash will prolly cost ~$500?

so my sti has less testicular fortitude now. nuetered?

it is still way better than my old s2000 for mechanical soundness, and i thoroughly enjoy the car.

but to be a fair and balanced (sic) consumer - i know that 3 strikes for the same valid complaint within the warranty period and you are out.

strictly _my_ opinion about _my_ car based on how _i_ drive and where _i_ live - _your_ mileage may vary.

'dios,

-mike
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Old 08-31-2003, 02:40 AM   #371
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Quote:
Originally posted by Porter
All I can tell you is that all of the folks who have had their STi reflashed here seem satisfied with the results.

I can't really give you any good information about what's proper for a California car. Obviously there is a huge difference between 91 and 94 octane, and though the reflash fixes the problem for the rest of the country, there's no guarantee that it will cure your issue 100% if you live in California. Certainly it would improve the situation.

It seems like a no-brainer to me, I'm not sure why so many people continue to have anxiety attacks over this. The reflash doesn't affect power in any way that I or my customers have been able to determine from the driver's seat, and it improves the margin of safety even on 91 octane.
OK - Here are the results from today's Dyno runs!

Below you will see a stock STi before and after the Subaru Ping Re-flash. The chart shows it all - looks like a 20 AWHP loss with the Subaru reflash, and you still have to run 93 octane!

Please note - today was very hot and humid = terrible conditions for racing or measuring HP + we are about 1200ft in elevation.

The data that was gathered was from 2 different STi's on 2 different days with different weather conditions with mixed 93-94 octane.

Because of this, this data is anything but conclusive or complete - So please take the results with a grain of salt.


Last edited by horshack; 08-31-2003 at 02:30 PM.
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Old 08-31-2003, 02:46 AM   #372
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I also did a comparison on the old debate of CAI vs Drop in filters.

Please note the Drop-in also has the Silencer Delete option.

It seems that the CAI is good for 3-4 AWHP over the Drop-in.

This was acheived by leaning the A/F mixture a bit, thus creating a few more ponies!


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Old 08-31-2003, 03:53 AM   #373
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Did you plot the a/f to see if the cai affected maf readings? (If you can tell from that...)
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Old 08-31-2003, 11:13 AM   #374
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I'd like to know more about what you actually measured and how.

Was it the same car and you swapped ECMs same day?
Same car on two different days/ECMs?
Two different cars same day one with reflash and one without?

Have you measured it on 91/92? I am not feeling any power loss, in fact the car feels slightly faster and much more "solid" in terms of power delivery (on 92).
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Old 08-31-2003, 11:20 AM   #375
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Look at the Mazda RX-8 lower power=buyback or other perks. Subaru kept the horespower the same, but lost massive torque and gave up both in the lower rpm's. I am in process of having mine reflashed, but now am tempted to go get my car back and live with the ping untill another inexpensive option is ready to go. Or get the reflash and then have them buy my newly depowered STi back and wait again for the new Legacy turbo.
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