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Old 07-21-2003, 12:54 PM   #26
HFTuRbo
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Thumbs up Thanks Porter for the info...

This is great news for everyone. I doubt there is any difference in the ECU's from build dates up until this point. It would be a good guess to say that Japan may already have this information and begin installing "corrected" ECU's for the US STi's.
I don't know if I need a "fix" or not being just over 700 miles and no WOT just yet. The recommended fuel is available in this area, but for those in 91 octane parts of the country this is excellent news for them and their pistons!
Hopefully someone will compare the fix to the non-fix ECU on a dyno so *we* know what's affected.
Thanks again!
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Old 07-21-2003, 01:03 PM   #27
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My Subie has light pinging at WOT so I look forward to someone doing a comparison of an STi before and after the re-flashed ECU. I will hold off, unless the pinging gets worse, and see what has been affected.

It's good news to hear that Subaru is responding to people's concerns so quickly. For a limited production vehicle to have a fix in about a month of it's release is pretty damn good.
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Old 07-21-2003, 01:04 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by davidm_sh
I think we will get a drop in torque to around 280ft lbs or so.
What're you basing your 280trq guesstimate on?

You can actually make more power right below the point of detonation. There's no reason at all for this reflash to cause of loss of torque.

Thanks for sharing the info Porter! Were you directed to make this post by someone? Were you authorized to make this post?
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Old 07-21-2003, 01:17 PM   #29
ToddStratton
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I just checked the techinfo site and didn't see anything posted. (BTW, anyone can browse the site to the point of downloading items, then you can see the title of the document).

This is great news for folks with the problem.

TRS
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Old 07-21-2003, 01:27 PM   #30
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I was instructed by my regional rep to go ahead and make appointments for our customers who are experiencing det. I asked if it was open for me to let people know about it, and he replied that "this was the fix". I'll call him right now and verify.
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Old 07-21-2003, 01:37 PM   #31
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Ya know, some of you guys are absolutely impossible to satisfy.

Some complained that the car didn't have a radio, then everyone was up in arms about the det issue, demanding an immediate fix, so SOA rushed to get it done, and now we still have people complaining about the "way" they are going about fixing it.
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Old 07-21-2003, 01:47 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by deadbolt
Ya know, some of you guys are absolutely impossible to satisfy.

Some complained that the car didn't have a radio, then everyone was up in arms about the det issue, demanding an immediate fix, so SOA rushed to get it done, and now we still have people complaining about the "way" they are going about fixing it.
I figured you would have learned that dealing with humans, and the American human in particular is frought with frustraion...people always need something to complain about...you sell cars right? I am sure you know what it is like to deal with people...I have learned to sit back and enjoy the show.
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Old 07-21-2003, 05:55 PM   #33
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Hey, if I keep the car as is and melt a piston, can I still claim under the lemon law? (j/k)

PS I have my car booked in for 8/11 (first date avail with loaner car), my dealer just heard 10 mins ago (presumably via nasioc ) about the reflash.

Last edited by ANZAC_1915; 07-21-2003 at 06:09 PM.
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Old 07-21-2003, 07:03 PM   #34
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I think its understandable some people are upset about having to leave their new car in the dealers for a week whilst a part of it is shipped to jersey to be rectified. The car should never have been relased with this problem in the first place. Put yourself in the position of a new owner of what is their pride and joy and you should be able to empathise with that.

Lets hope they dont lose any ECU's in the post or you will have dead STi's in the dealers for weeks.

In the UK, when people buy a PPP upgrade, Prodrive ship a new ECU to the dealers in advance, the original ECU is then shipped back to Prodrive for a reflash. Fitting the full PPP which includes a performance cat, backbox and some minor pipe changes takes less than 1 day. The dealer is fined if they take longer than agreed to ship the original ECU back. (that means they never do fail to ship them!)
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Old 07-21-2003, 07:12 PM   #35
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I'm glad the problem has been acknowledged.

I live in California, limited to 91 octane, and I want to buy an STI shortly.
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Old 07-21-2003, 07:27 PM   #36
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Smile OT:

Quote:
Originally posted by Porter
I was instructed by my regional rep to go ahead and make appointments for our customers who are experiencing det. I asked if it was open for me to let people know about it, and he replied that "this was the fix". I'll call him right now and verify.
Hehehehe.....
These are stuff we're not supposed to say to a customer
We were taught to say "this is the improvement", instead of "this is the fix" (implying that there is a problem)
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Old 07-21-2003, 08:13 PM   #37
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I have about 2400 miles on my car and have run nothing but 94 octane. I have never heard it ping, but I have felt significant changes in power from one minute to the next. I'm not sure if their is slight detonation and the ecu is pulling timing then a few minutes later goes back to normal. I've also noticed if you shut the car off for a second then turn it back on it feels normal again. Has anyone noticed this, especially people experiencing audible pinging?

Either way this is great news, i'm definitely going to get this reflash. I just can't tie up my car for 6 days so i'll have to wait. I'm not complaining.
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Old 07-21-2003, 08:18 PM   #38
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I still think SoA should invite us tri-staters down to HQ so we can get our cars fixed and test drive the 22B!
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Old 07-21-2003, 08:49 PM   #39
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I'm not going to try and start a flame war here.. But with the way NASIOC has been lately I'm sure someone will come down on me hard for simply stating some common sense of tuning.

Guys.. The easiest way to fix knock is to take some timing out... Hopefully 1-2 degrees will get it done. Or... you can try adding fuel.. but I doubt they'd go that route. To compensate for any loss of power you could try adding some boost, but I don't see that happening. Either way.. it's not going to be a HUGE difference and I doubt you'd notice it without having dyno'd before and after. The last thing Subaru wants to do is hurt the performance in a big way... but it will have to take a minor hit. (By minor.. I'm guessing 3-7 whp based on dyno runs with the car knocking and not knocking)

I know it's been posted 1,000 times by Nathan and some other tuners... but I'll say it again.... The STi ECU is VERY agressive in advancing the timing on it's own. You'll generally find that the first 2-3 runs on a dyno will be knock free.. then the 4-5th will knock audibly.. but the 6th will be knock free again. Between the 1st and 2nd run with an STi I observed on a dyno in GA there was a 20 WHP difference.. That's a huge amount of correction on the ECU's part. Unfortunately the logging utilities we had at the time wouldn't log the ignition timing for some reason so I don't have exact details.

Afraid you might lose a little bit of horsepower? Don't reflash your ECU if you don't HAVE to. The difference is not in the ECU's on the car... EVERY car is different. With the standard WRX's dyno's have shown around 10whp difference in cars from the same year. That's just how it goes. If you only get slight knocking while romping on the car, consider using a higher octane fuel. A mix of 90% 93 octane and 10% toluene (sherwin williams or any other paint store has it) will give you a nice 95ish octane that is safe to run on a daily basis. That should actually help you power wise in theory since the ECU is so agressive in bringing that timing up... Will it know where to stop with the higher octane fuel? I haven't a clue, but I'd love to test it out.

I think it's great that SOA is taking the time to address the issue. As I said in the previous paragraph... If you're afraid of losing horsepower... Do what you should have been doing from the start... compensate for the aggressive timing with a higher octane. That's what those of us with tunable computers do when we want to start cranking up the timing and horsepower.
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Old 07-21-2003, 10:10 PM   #40
Porter
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Good post Tim.


As I said before, there is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE that this ECM change will affect horsepower or drivability. It all remains to be seen.

Speculation tells us nothing, it only clouds the issue. Wait and see.
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Old 07-21-2003, 10:55 PM   #41
ken reich
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Thumbs up ecm reflash

you guys in california must be blessed with fuel that is not good enough for the sti, the cdn version has a sticker on the inside of the fuel door, 93 octaine required, i use 92 no pinging, we are also at 2200 feet elevation , witch kills a little boost, 94 octaine fuel will be available in 2004, from husky energy, this will make life a little easier on the engine,
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Old 07-21-2003, 10:56 PM   #42
Jon [in CT]
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Quote:
Originally posted by Porter
As I said before, there is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE that this ECM change will affect horsepower or drivability. It all remains to be seen.
Thanks for clearing that up.
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Old 07-21-2003, 11:07 PM   #43
davidm_sh
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Quote:
Originally posted by Austin
What're you basing your 280trq guesstimate on?

You can actually make more power right below the point of detonation. There's no reason at all for this reflash to cause of loss of torque.

Thanks for sharing the info Porter! Were you directed to make this post by someone? Were you authorized to make this post?
I am sorry to 'speculate' and add fuel to the rumor mill fire, but logic dictates that if the car is knocking from an aggressive tune that getting rid of the detonation IS going to come at a certain amount power loss... PRESUMABLY... sorry there I go again .

I honestly think the loss in power that will occur will be for people running 91 octane fuel and be hardly noticable. I mean when you look at TXS dyno plots the timing hump is almost identical between their 'good' and 'bad' runs. They are trying to run 23-24 degrees at 4000-4400rpm which is pretty insane but timing does make power and taking it away will possibly take away some power. Personally I would GLADLY take a almost neglagable amount of power out of the begining of the power band to avoid detonation.

I am sorry though for stirring up the pot and I will make no further speculations .
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Old 07-21-2003, 11:09 PM   #44
krzyss
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Smile Nobody noticed it but

Shall the new, improved ECU cause change the name of the car ?
Subaru Imreza WRX STi ver. 2.0 or maybe 1.1 :-)
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Old 07-21-2003, 11:41 PM   #45
ANZAC_1915
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There are new updates for your STi.

Install them now? [Yes] [No]
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Old 07-21-2003, 11:44 PM   #46
ldivinag
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Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn Wallace
There are new updates for your STi.

Install them now? [Yes] [No]
hee, hee glenn...

dont forget that they make you reboot after the updates are donwloaded and installed...

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Old 07-21-2003, 11:52 PM   #47
shirokuma
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Quote:
Originally posted by davidm_sh
They are trying to run 23-24 degrees at 4000-4400rpm which is pretty insane but timing does make power and taking it away will possibly take away some power.
That's actually quite normal for an STi, according to a tuner that's been doing them for many many years. It seems insane because people have yet to get used to the STi motors - you have to simply give up thinking in WRX turbo terms.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
www.apexjapan.com
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Old 07-22-2003, 12:47 AM   #48
hyperion
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I posted this before, but the thread evaporated when this one came back today...

I am hoping the Subaru techs out there (Porter? Sparks?) can answer this question. I have an STi enroute which should hit the shores at the end of the month. I am supposed to take possesion in Colorado around the second week of August.

Here's the question: is the ECU in this car already re-flashed? (rev.2) or is it the same as the cars delivered in June and July? I want to know if I should be prepared to give up my car for 4-6 days just after I pick it up...

Thanks!

-ch
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Old 07-22-2003, 01:01 AM   #49
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So I submit again...is there any possibility that the timing spike was put in intensionally to challenge detonation? If you look at the graph (at least as I remember), it really is a spike. Which to me doesn't make sense. Why would they have it rise AND DROP so quickly right at 4K rpms? I would think the curve would be much more smooth if their direct intent was just to have as much timing as possible for power. But if they wanted to give a quick "touch" of very high timing (like quickly finger tapping a stove to see if it's hot or just how hot) to reveal to the learning mode of the ECM where det. will occur, that seems to make more sense.

I can't remember where I saw the timing graph, but if I recall correctly, the timing advance at ~ 6K rpms was about the same as it was at the spike. Maybe the ECU looks for det. during the spike, and then advances the timing later in the curve just below the point it saw det. at 4K rpms?

If that's true, then "max" power might be affected if they reduce the agressiveness of the learning tactic.

But really, my bet is that SOA will be smart enough to have a reflash that keeps the advertised performance stats...it has to or else they're in deep, deep poop (in the legal department).

Terry
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Old 07-22-2003, 02:02 AM   #50
Cndchronic
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I've got roughly 2400 kms on my car now and heard quite a bit of pre det. Especialy under heavy boost ( 3rd, 4th gear and 60kph) the best I have up here is 92octane. Since I changed my intake the pre det seem to have disappered all together. Could be a combination of things but that intake is sure restricting. What a difference. Who Knows?
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