Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Monday July 28, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Factory 2.5L Turbo Powertrain

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-05-2003, 03:05 PM   #176
JT-KGY
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 7852
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Alhambra, CA
Vehicle:
03 White Lan EVO 8
97 Techno-Violet BMW M3/2

Default

So I guess just drop off the ECM to the dealer is not
acceptable...

Quote:
Originally posted by Porter
We've now had 2 vehicles flashed and back on the road. The first one was a 4 business day turnaround, the second was a 2 business day turnaround. The customer (dlowman) dropped the vehicle off on Thursday and we had him back up and running on Monday.

I'll defer to the owners for reports on performance and presence of ping.

The key to all of this is that the cars were already listed in Subaru's system because we had filed the paperwork properly with Subaru in order to start the process. This is not going to be a situation where you go into the dealer for the first time and they flash it and give it back to you. Here are the steps:

1) If you have ping, make an appointment when you can spend about an hour at the dealership.
2) You must get a Subaru Certified technician to ride along with you and they *must* be able to hear the ping. Therefore, your problem *has* to be reproducible.
3) Once the ping is 100% verified, then the service department can take action, typically by filing a QMR so you have a case number that is actionable. The service department will probably have to have input and approval from their regional rep before they can proceed.
4) Assuming everything else has been done and Subaru has approved the reflash, you will need to make an appointment to drop your vehicle off with the dealer while the ECM is sent for reflash. It's highly unlikely that this will happen the same day as the ping verification, so don't expect an immediate fix.
5) Drop your vehicle off, get your loaner, and come back when the dealer notifies you that everything has been completed and the vehicle checks out OK.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
JT-KGY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2003, 03:41 PM   #177
dlowman
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 22998
Join Date: Aug 2002
Vehicle:
2004 WRX STi
GT35R 572 whp 93/meth

Default

Porter was a great help in resolving my ping issues. I brought the STi in about a month ago now. He recorded the problem then sent in a ticket to subaru. Once a resolution was given I brought my car in and got a loaner. It was a very painless experience for me, except for being with out my car. More dealers need to be like Gwinnett. They are doing things right up there right now.

Dan

Last edited by dlowman; 08-05-2003 at 10:25 PM.
dlowman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2003, 05:33 PM   #178
wolverine
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 36571
Join Date: May 2003
Location: NorCal
Vehicle:
2004 WRX STi
Black & gold

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by dlowman
Porter was a great help in resolving my ping issues.
Dan
So, are your ping issues gone yet?
wolverine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2003, 10:17 PM   #179
dlowman
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 22998
Join Date: Aug 2002
Vehicle:
2004 WRX STi
GT35R 572 whp 93/meth

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by wolverine


So, are your ping issues gone yet?
absolutely
dlowman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2003, 10:20 PM   #180
R Diamond
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 58
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Alexandria, VA
Vehicle:
04 STi (blue/gold)
98 2.5RS Turbo (sold)

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Porter
2) You must get a Subaru Certified technician to ride along with you and they *must* be able to hear the ping. Therefore, your problem *has* to be reproducible.
3) Once the ping is 100% verified, then the service department can take action, typically by filing a QMR so you have a case number that is actionable. The service department will probably have to have input and approval from their regional rep before they can proceed.
Has anyone been denied the ECU reflash? If so, I'd recommend you send a letter in writing to the dealer & SOA and have them say "no ecu for you" back in writing. Good to keep something like that on file if you have problems down the road.

I'm glad I have no ping, because I don't think I'd be putting up with SOA's attitude on the reflash. "Sorry, you need to keep the Firestone tires on your SUV until you can prove they're about to explode."
R Diamond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2003, 11:40 PM   #181
RichQY
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 31948
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: SoCal
Vehicle:
2004 STi
Aspen White

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by R Diamond


. "Sorry, you need to keep the Firestone tires on your SUV until you can prove they're about to explode."
exactly!!!!!!
RichQY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2003, 09:27 AM   #182
Obsidian
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 5627
Join Date: Apr 2001
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Charlotte, NC
Vehicle:
06 WRX STi
Black

Default

Well, I know of at least one case where they couldn't reflash the ECU b/c they couldn't get it to ping on cue. However, with my STI I have come to see that my STI pings like crazy on 93 octane. Yesterday was extreamly bad, but I just got the car a week ago last Monday and it's really difficult to be without my car for a few days. Then again I know at least in my case the det really needs to get fixed... it seems to be that bad in my car...
Obsidian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2003, 11:17 AM   #183
ANZAC_1915
Moderator
 
Member#: 456
Join Date: Oct 1999
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Redmond, WA, USA
Vehicle:
2008 Forester XT
Steel Gray Metallic

Default

My dealer agreed to do it without hearing it, but then the shop guys know me and know I wouldn't bother them with something unless it really was an issue.

OTOH if they wanted to hear it, that wouldn't be much effort. My last tank of gas was super crappy even for 92 and we've had hot temps so I have trouble driving the car without it pinging.

What I don't understand is why this isn't a full-on recall. For the people in the states without 93/94, a newbie owner who doesn't know what det is is eventually going to have some kind of engine failure which will cost Subaru money. Perhaps they're betting the number of those incidents will cost less than reflashing every ECU..... weird.

FWIW I know of someone who runs 94 and got the reflash and noticed no power loss.

Glenn
ANZAC_1915 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2003, 12:49 PM   #184
Oldnslow
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4572
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Seattle,Washington,USA
Vehicle:
2015 WRX
WRB

Default

Glenn. Who says an engine failure based on detonation will cost Subaru money. The way they operate, they probably will just find some excuse to deny the warranty claim, probably forcing the owner to sue. You're right, it should have been a recall. You can bet all new STI's will have the reprogrammed ECU. And yes, I do think you likely get "special treatment" from Subaru. The treatment you get should in fact be the way every customer gets treated, whether or not they are knowledgeable like you are. The reflash of the ECU to fix this problem is so simple, and there are so relatively few STIs out there, Subaru should simply have sent out a letter to every owner giving them the option for the reflash, telling them that without the reflash it is their risk if their motor fails due to detonation. Of course, this would be a written acknowledgment of the problem, which this company seems loath to do.
Oldnslow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2003, 04:50 PM   #185
ANZAC_1915
Moderator
 
Member#: 456
Join Date: Oct 1999
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Redmond, WA, USA
Vehicle:
2008 Forester XT
Steel Gray Metallic

Default

I don't disagree with you.
ANZAC_1915 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2003, 07:16 PM   #186
Porter
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 486
Join Date: Nov 1999
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Roanoke, VA
Vehicle:
2004 Forester XT
bug spattered

Default

Wow, guys. Calm down a little bit.

I've been in a unique position to observe a number of different vehicles both in a state where they ping, and also a number of otherwise identical vehicles that don't ping at all, or at least not "on command". I just rode along again today with the particular customer Obsidian is referring to, and the customer and I both agreed the car wasn't pinging when I was in the car, but it seems that it WAS pinging when the customer was out of town the other week in the mountains.

What's different between being here in Atlanta and driving around, and being out of town and driving around? Altitude maybe? I'm beginning to think it's different gasoline. The customer in question has been using QuikTrip gas here in Atlanta with very rare ping... in NC last week apparently all that was available was Texaco. I'm just speculating of course, there's no way of knowing without doing back-to-back tanks of gas. I'll know more after the customer experiments with some other brands of gas.

Subaru is OBVIOUSLY doing their own investigations on the ping issue, trying to determine if there's a pattern to the puzzle. As I said before, not every STi is pinging... it may be related to gasoline, it may not. It may truly be a software glitch, it may not. It *appears* on this forum that so many STis are pinging because those who are having a problem are the most vocal. The issue is that there are still MANY possibilities for a root cause... just because the ECM reflash fixes the ping doesn't mean it caused the ping to begin with. So, Subaru is playing it safe and eliminating all the other options (physical and electronic) before taking larger action. I think that's a pretty intelligent way to do it. Remember, measure twice (or four times), cut once.

People seem to forget the ECM reflash RECALL on the 2001+ Impreza RS to fix the o2 sensor range tolerance. Subaru has a precedent for stepping up and doing a global reflash campaign when it becomes appropriate to do so based on their test data.

Keep your heads together, be patient, and Subaru will respond in an official capacity when they get all of their ducks in a row and quacking in unison.
Porter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2003, 07:22 PM   #187
pbuckley
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 39187
Join Date: Jul 2003
Vehicle:
2004 Impreza
Blue

Default

ARG!!!.... sorry... I... will... not... rant...

Anyways I finally got a subaru tech to go for a ride with me so I could reproduce the ping. He gave me 5 minutes to do it in during rush hour traffic on a main road. (Yeh lots of opportunity's to accelerate). I finally get a little bit of room and reproduce it and I ask if he heard it. Him: "I think I heard something." So I am like, would you classify that as ping/det? Him: "What?"... Me: Ok maybe knock... Him: "Maybe although I doubt something like that would happen on a car this new" Me: o.o Him: ?.? Then I ask him about any possible ecu updates, he says he hasnt heard anything but the regional rep is supposed to be in town next week so I should talk to him two weeks from now...

So I wasn't expecting a fix TODAY, but I was at least expecting them to acknowledge the problem. He wasn't even willing to document it until he talked to the representative.

Ok.. So that was a rant.. might as well finish it up.. it's just been everything that I have done with this dealer from purchasing it to getting a faulty side air bag sensor replaced to an oil change to this has been an incredibly unpleasant experience. </rant>
pbuckley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2003, 07:26 PM   #188
pbuckley
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 39187
Join Date: Jul 2003
Vehicle:
2004 Impreza
Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Porter
Wow, guys. Calm down a little bit.

I've been in a unique position to observe a number of different vehicles both in a state where they ping, and also a number of otherwise identical vehicles that don't ping at all, or at least not "on command". I just rode along again today with the particular customer Obsidian is referring to, and the customer and I both agreed the car wasn't pinging when I was in the car, but it seems that it WAS pinging when the customer was out of town the other week in the mountains.

What's different between being here in Atlanta and driving around, and being out of town and driving around? Altitude maybe? I'm beginning to think it's different gasoline. The customer in question has been using QuikTrip gas here in Atlanta with very rare ping... in NC last week apparently all that was available was Texaco. I'm just speculating of course, there's no way of knowing without doing back-to-back tanks of gas. I'll know more after the customer experiments with some other brands of gas.

Subaru is OBVIOUSLY doing their own investigations on the ping issue, trying to determine if there's a pattern to the puzzle. As I said before, not every STi is pinging... it may be related to gasoline, it may not. It may truly be a software glitch, it may not. It *appears* on this forum that so many STis are pinging because those who are having a problem are the most vocal. The issue is that there are still MANY possibilities for a root cause... just because the ECM reflash fixes the ping doesn't mean it caused the ping to begin with. So, Subaru is playing it safe and eliminating all the other options (physical and electronic) before taking larger action. I think that's a pretty intelligent way to do it. Remember, measure twice (or four times), cut once.

People seem to forget the ECM reflash RECALL on the 2001+ Impreza RS to fix the o2 sensor range tolerance. Subaru has a precedent for stepping up and doing a global reflash campaign when it becomes appropriate to do so based on their test data.

Keep your heads together, be patient, and Subaru will respond in an official capacity when they get all of their ducks in a row and quacking in unison.
Texaco.. interesting..

I use Chevron Gasoline in my car which pings...

Chevron and Texaco == Same Company as far as I know.
pbuckley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2003, 09:17 PM   #189
borikua
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 41331
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Caguas, Puerto Rico
Default

Here is an explanation for you guys wondering how detonation (ping, knock) happens.

The reason detonation happens is because the temperature inside the cylinder during the compression stroke reaches the ignition temperature of the fuel. The result is power loss because the piston is going through the compression stroke, the fuel ignites increasing the pressure inside the cylinder which acts as a counter acting force. There are several reasons why this happens.

a) The pressure of the A/F mixture inside the cylinder at the time the intake valve closes is higher than it should be. This results in higher pressures during compression which result in higher temperature of the A/F mixture reaching ignition temperature before reaching top dead center when it is supposed to be ignited by the spark plug. The only way this can happen is if the turbo boost is too high at the rpm the problem happens or the valves stay open too long allowing too much A/F mixture into the cylinder for the given rpm. To solve the problem you have to decrease turbo boost or change timing and lift (if engine has variable valve lift).

b) The engine is running lean at the given rpm. The fuel introduced into the air is also used to cool the air going into the cylinder, if the temperature of the mixture is just a few degrees higher than required by the combustion process of the engine, the temperature can reach ignition temperature before the piston reaches top dead center(during compression stroke). Another reason why running lean can cause detonation is that lean combustion temperature is higher than the temperature of balanced combustion which causes the engine to run hotter. One degree is enough to cause the problem. The solution is to increase the amount of fuel at the given rpm or increase the cooling efficiency of the cooling system.

Another characteristic of detonation is that it does not happen at high rmp because the piston is moving at a speed that does not allow enough time for detonation to occur. What the ECU reprogramming will probably do is to decrease the amount of torque at the rpm range when the problem occurs and increase it at a higher rpm by adjusting turbo boost, timing and/or lift. This can also result in higher horsepower since power is a function of work (torque) and rpm. So you can expect 300ft-lbs at more than 4000rpm and 300hp or more at 6000rpm or higher.
borikua is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2003, 10:14 PM   #190
martiandl
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 31697
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Snohomish, WA
Vehicle:
2004 STi
Silver

Default

Talked to my dealer today, 3000 mile checkup due. They said they knew about the fix and I did not have to show proof, I did offer it though. Goes in on the 28th and will get it back after the weekend.
martiandl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2003, 02:17 AM   #191
ZenBoy
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 12524
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesnowta
Vehicle:
2004 STi
WRB/Gold

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Porter
Wow, guys. Calm down a little bit.

What's different between being here in Atlanta and driving around, and being out of town and driving around? Altitude maybe? I'm beginning to think it's different gasoline. The customer in question has been using QuikTrip gas here in Atlanta with very rare ping... in NC last week apparently all that was available was Texaco. I'm just speculating of course, there's no way of knowing without doing back-to-back tanks of gas. I'll know more after the customer experiments with some other brands of gas.
Excellent post, Porter. Thanks for that.

I can speak from personal experience and attest to the "gasoline theory".

I'm one of those folks that doesn't tend to read manuals unless necessary, so guess what the first thing I did was when I brought my STi home? That's right. I didn't read the manual.

As a result, I had no idea that the car wanted 93+ octane until I did happen to poke through a section of the manual. This was JUST after I'd broken in the motor (with the Cobb Tuning-style 500-mile break-in), but I did have a couple of tanks of gas where I needed to fill up and had trouble finding 93 octane.

On those tanks of gas, I did notice some ping (not audible with the HVAC blower going on high, but noticeable in terms of feel). Since then, I've been filling up exclusively on Holiday - I should buy stock in them - since that's the only place locally I've found that has 93+ octane, save for racing fuel. And, since I've been usng the Holiday 93 octane gas, I haven't heard the ping at all, even in hot weather with the A/C on.

I hear that Holiday gas is high in sulfur content, so I doubt the elimination of ping has been because of great gas quality...!

I haven't tested it, for obvious reasons, but I'd be willing to bet money that if I went back to an Amoco, or Shell (they bought out Texaco stations here). I'd get the ping back around 4000 RPMs.

Just my $.02 ... or maybe $.04....

Zen
ZenBoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2003, 10:01 AM   #192
Chin
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 632
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Savage, MN
Vehicle:
'14 Audi RS5
'00 RS Track Car

Default

Hey "Zenboy", I guess I could support your theory... As you may know, I use Holiday exclusively, as well, and never have experienced knock on it. One thing to note however, Holiday is by far the best gas to buy in the Cities. It is actually low in sulfur, which is why it was used exclusively in my RS (as long as I was in town). I wish I would have been able to do the test on my roadtrip to FL in early July, but I didn't know about it then. I have used lesser gas on my trip up to the border for a fishing trip, but I never tried to push it hard enough. Maybe this weekend I will try when I am up on the North Shore. I will let everyone know if I ping on Amoco this weekend.

Christian
Chin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2003, 10:33 AM   #193
KoneKiller
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 39191
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Houston
Vehicle:
2004 WRX STi WRB
Red 1990 Spec Miata

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by borikua
Here is an explanation for you guys wondering how detonation (ping, knock) happens.

You left out about 50 factors... spark plug heat range, valve temperatures, casting irregularities in pistons/head.... and on and on and on...

Ping and knock are two very complicated issues in automotive engineering. It's not just about octane.
KoneKiller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2003, 10:35 AM   #194
KoneKiller
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 39191
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Houston
Vehicle:
2004 WRX STi WRB
Red 1990 Spec Miata

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by pbuckley


Texaco.. interesting..

I use Chevron Gasoline in my car which pings...

Chevron and Texaco == Same Company as far as I know.
Wanna know a dirty little secret? You never know who refined your brand name gasoline.... Shell could have made your Texaco gas.

The only thing you can be sure of is the additive package: Chevron puts their patented bucket of secret additives in what they sell and Shell puts their patented bucket of secret additives in what they sell.
KoneKiller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2003, 10:47 AM   #195
Chin
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 632
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Savage, MN
Vehicle:
'14 Audi RS5
'00 RS Track Car

Default

Quote:
Wanna know a dirty little secret? You never know who refined your brand name gasoline.... Shell could have made your Texaco gas.
KoneKiller, is it not true that most gas comes from a local refinery, indepedant of the station? I thought that our local refinery supplied most of the stations, with each one adding their "special ingredients". Maybe I was misled...

Christian
Chin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2003, 11:00 AM   #196
wolverine
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 36571
Join Date: May 2003
Location: NorCal
Vehicle:
2004 WRX STi
Black & gold

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by martiandl
Talked to my dealer today, 3000 mile checkup due. They said they knew about the fix and I did not have to show proof, I did offer it though. Goes in on the 28th and will get it back after the weekend.
That's great! Who's your dealer?
wolverine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2003, 11:09 AM   #197
martiandl
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 31697
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Snohomish, WA
Vehicle:
2004 STi
Silver

Default

wolverine it is Skagit Subaru.
martiandl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2003, 02:34 PM   #198
KoneKiller
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 39191
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Houston
Vehicle:
2004 WRX STi WRB
Red 1990 Spec Miata

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Chin


KoneKiller, is it not true that most gas comes from a local refinery, indepedant of the station? I thought that our local refinery supplied most of the stations, with each one adding their "special ingredients". Maybe I was misled...

Christian
Christian... yes, that's what I'm saying. And it can vary by month to month or even day to day....
KoneKiller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2003, 06:15 PM   #199
Obsidian
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 5627
Join Date: Apr 2001
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Charlotte, NC
Vehicle:
06 WRX STi
Black

Default

FWIW I normally fill up on Texaco/Shell or with BP/Amaco, and have gotten guite a bit on knock with the Texaco/Shell. I get some w/ the BP as well. I'm going to try a few others and even some 100 octane unleaded and see how it fairs...

--Matt
Obsidian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2003, 08:45 PM   #200
borikua
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 41331
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Caguas, Puerto Rico
Default

You are right there are many factor that can cause detonation, but going to technical on the subjetc will take too long to explain. Those factors you mention easily fall inside the 2 ways I mentioned might be causing the problem. Bad casting can = higher compression ratio = higher temperatures during the compression stroke, and so on. Just trying to help the people that does not know whay it happens have an idea.

By the way, the STi I tested at the dealer did not showed any detonation problems when I went WOT in third gear and fourth gear. I have to go ask them about the problem to see what they say to me. And when you are the only subaru dealer in the area and already sold over 40 STi's you better tell the truth.
borikua is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
AccessPort v2.0 Update Released mike91401 South West Impreza Club Forum -- SWIC 10 02-08-2007 04:30 PM
04 STi ECU reflash confirmed (ping fix)??? stealitall Engine Management & Tuning 10 12-12-2006 05:04 PM
WTB 02-03 STi I/C splitter and STi Aspen white hood scoop.Also need 04 STi ecm Hondaslayer Private 'Wanted' Classifieds 8 07-30-2005 09:58 PM
Anyone local have an STi ecm lying around? Hondaslayer Mid West Subaru Owners Club Forum -- MWSOC 3 04-01-2005 09:14 PM
Question for USDM STI ECM experts NMLegacy Subaru Conversions 3 11-16-2004 07:57 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:06 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.