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Old 07-22-2003, 08:13 PM   #1
DoodieHead
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Default The Block Seized Up!!!

Hey all,
A few months ago I bought a block (race ready, low compression) from a guy named Kaos22b from the boards. I just this past week got it installed, because I am going turbo in a week. Installed the block and there was a loud ticking noise coming from the passengerside of the block (he claimed it was the pistons because they were JE, I guess they are suppose to be loud). Well, I paid $997.73 for the installation and 27 miles into having it installed, the motor siezed up. I talked to him before I installed it and he claimed that there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT. WRONG!! Not only did I have to pay to get my other motor re-installed, but now I have to pay to get the block fixed. My Subaru Master Tech disassembled the block and the rod bearings went out. I took it to a machine shop yesterday and they informed me the bearings had much wear on them and there was no way this kind of damage could have been done driving 27 miles, which means that he knew about the block being bad before he sold it to me. What my question to you all is, what do I need to do about this situation. I figured that I would request money for the second install (had to reinstall my stock motor) and also money for the parts that I have to get machined. I am very upset with this whole situation. Someone please help me out. Below is a link to pictures of the block and the internals.

Pictures

Thanks everyone,
M|key
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Last edited by DoodieHead; 07-22-2003 at 08:38 PM.
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Old 07-22-2003, 09:33 PM   #2
STi-Nismo Dood
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Default

uh o, your best best is to look for kaos and tell him he was frauding you. He seems to be a knowlegable guy on this board... sorry, not like you could of done much to prevent this without opening up the block. After all, he did say that it was the JE piston slap making the noise... he should be responsible for everything for moral reasons.
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Old 07-22-2003, 11:28 PM   #3
tulit
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I think its gonna be hard for you to prove.

If you have no or low oil pressure for whatever reason, you could have easily toasted the bearings in way less than 27 miles. Do you have an oil pressure gauge? Any idea what it was reading?

Good luck.
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Old 07-23-2003, 03:42 AM   #4
HndaTch627
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Default

before you go and flame kian i know for a fact that block was in good operating condition when it was sold to you. secondy kian is not the kind of person to screw anyone. third i have seen a motor spin bearings in 5 miles because it had absolutely no oil pressure due to an error during the oil pump installation.
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Old 07-23-2003, 04:19 AM   #5
hotrod
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Default Number 1

You might want to find out why you failed #1 bearing, it looks like its the worst from the pics if so it was the cause of the failure. When it went away all the crap probably filled the oil pump and filter with metal shavings.

Hard to tell on the pics but if all the rod bearings have the same amount of damage then I suspect a clearance issue on their install, especially if the main bearings are essentially okay.


You could have had too tight clearance on the rod bearings, the bearing shells installed incorrectly, or something plugged up the supply to the rod journals.

It looks like all the bearings are badly worn on the parting lines that makes it look like you may have had too much crush on the bearing and the ends pinched in on the journal. The same thing can happen under detonation, so the failure is not necessarily due to an install problem it could be a tuning or user error.

By the way your "expert mechanic" is a fool if he thinks that much damage can't happen it 27 miles. It can happen in the time it takes you to back out of a garage if you lose oil supply or have very tight bearing clearences.

Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 07-23-2003 at 04:30 AM.
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Old 07-23-2003, 12:05 PM   #6
BOY
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Default Re: Number 1

Quote:
Originally posted by hotrod
You might want to find out why you failed #1 bearing, it looks like its the worst from the pics if so it was the cause of the failure. When it went away all the crap probably filled the oil pump and filter with metal shavings.

Hard to tell on the pics but if all the rod bearings have the same amount of damage then I suspect a clearance issue on their install, especially if the main bearings are essentially okay.


You could have had too tight clearance on the rod bearings, the bearing shells installed incorrectly, or something plugged up the supply to the rod journals.

It looks like all the bearings are badly worn on the parting lines that makes it look like you may have had too much crush on the bearing and the ends pinched in on the journal. The same thing can happen under detonation, so the failure is not necessarily due to an install problem it could be a tuning or user error.

By the way your "expert mechanic" is a fool if he thinks that much damage can't happen it 27 miles. It can happen in the time it takes you to back out of a garage if you lose oil supply or have very tight bearing clearences.

Larry
Right on, Kaos22B has never led any of us to believe he's anything but a stand up kind of guy. Call him and talk to him but you bought a modified motor, used... was there any implied warantee? I'd bet not. JE pistons make noise, maybe the bearing was failing and its symptoms were masked by the JE pistons (those suckers can be VERY loud)... either way you should've done a full tear down of the block and inspected everything prior to installation. If you bought the block in pieces I'd bet it was installer error, sorry but these things happen and your mechanic isn't going to stand up and say, "Yup, I screwed up... here's the money for a new block". Talk to Kaos, see if you can work things out.
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Old 07-23-2003, 09:17 PM   #7
DoodieHead
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Default

Hey guys,
Thanks for you opinions/advice. I really have not talked to anyone about this whole ordeal, besides Kian. I was just trying to get some opinions about what to do in this kind of situation.

Yes, there was oil pressure in the system (have an oil pressure gauge on my pillar mount). The oil pump itself is the same one that is on my block that i re-installed, so I know for a fact that it was functional. As far as my mechanic, he advised me not to drive the vehicle, but after speaking with Kian, I was convinced that the block should be making that noise.

Yes, I am aware that Kian is reputable on the boards (that is the reason I bought the block), but the facts are in the pictures. I guess he is out of town for a while, so I will catch up with him when he gets back.

Got the crank and the rods back from the machine shop today. Luckily it was only $77.50 to get them redone. They look brand new. Now getting the new bearings, that is going to be the expensive part. From what I hear, they are about 70 for the main bearings and 50 for the rod bearings. If anything, I would just request the cost of the re-machining, cost of the bearings and some of the installation charges.

Thanks all,
M|key
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Old 07-24-2003, 03:32 AM   #8
HndaTch627
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Default

here's my question, how are you going to prove that it was actually kian's fault, just based on what your mechanic has said i am wondering if he knows what he's doing at all.

the problem here is JE pistons DO make noise, in fact they are allowed .006" for piston/wall clearance. Kian said you were saying the pistons move in the bore and your mechanic said that was not supposed to happen, well on forged pistons it does and IS supposed to happen. anyone can tell the difference between a rod knock(which you more then likely had) and piston slap.

I am trying to be impartial but remember you did buy a used engine as is. it's going to be very hard to prove that this was 100% kian's fault. I would say try to work something out as far as the machining costs and the bearing costs(bearings will more then likely run $500) but as for the $1k in labor to install i think you might be SOL.

GOod luck
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Old 07-24-2003, 11:41 AM   #9
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Default

Was the motor primed prior to starting? How did the installer prime the motor?

Starting up an unprimed or dry motor can easily scuff a bearing right off the get-go. Apply some load and now you have a failure.

..and no.. just because the motor "had oil in it" upon startup does not mean the bearings had oil on them upon startup.

Best of luck,
Fitz
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Old 07-24-2003, 01:20 PM   #10
SubaFastR
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Default

I KNOW THAT BLOCK WAS FINE. The only reason Kian let that block go was because he wrecked his car on my favorite road. No, the front was not hit at all. He basicly backed it into a tree.... uh, very fast. That block never had any issues other than the annoying forged piston slap upon warm up. Kian would have to be really good at guessing when a motor was going to go to have done what you are accusing him of. Sounds like you didn't prime it with oil. Please edit your accusing posts, Kian is a stand up guy that didn't screw anyone over.
Kevin
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Old 08-02-2003, 06:25 AM   #11
kaos200
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Default

Hey all, wow, I leave for a few weeks and everything goes haywire (spelling?)
Where to start?...

Mikey, We've spoken over emails, although being where i am Ive had limited access to an english typing computer, if any at all.
Im just going to give the basic rundown of how I feel right now, I crashed my car, and had to sell all my parts that I had taken a long time to get so that I could even afford a " new" car. This is history, Id tried many times to keep atleast the motor, but that wasnt possible. Finally after getting my car replaced, I even offered to buy it back! But you said you were already getting it closed decked somewhere, and that you wanted to keep it. Thats fine, a sale is a sale, I cant make you sell it back.
Another thing, this engine ran strong for 15,000 miles. Thats not a fluke, a bad motor wouldn't have lasted 1/10,000th of that. Especially not under boost.

Your subaru tech friend was SURE that the piston to cylinder wall clearance was out of wack. That the machinist screwed up majorly. If this was true, then how would it be that the bearings were destroyed? It just doesnt seem to me that he knows performance engines. I had JE, Cobb (sourced the pistons), the local maching company, and a very skilled Subaru Master Technician in on the assembly of this motor. I took my time and made sure everything was right, Like I do on everything on my car.

I understand you're upset, but you are straight out saying, that I
Quote:
knew about the block being bad before he sold it to me.
which means you are calling me out as a crook, a liar, and a deceiving person. Thats what I have a problem with. How can you accuse me of these things, when all you have are opinions. Granted you may say the only thing that all the people that put the motor together have, are their opinions. But then how did it run for soooo long? Why did I want it back?

Why is it only possible that I made a mistake, or that the assembly of the motor was the mistake? What about the reassembly of all the parts over when you had it installed? The heads? pumps? Belts?
You were concerned earlier about the cam profile of your new cams hitting the pistons? Did that have an affect?
Like some have said, an oil problem could very well have been a culprit.
Was the oil pickup installed correctly? The pump?


Quote:
I took it to a machine shop yesterday and they informed me the bearings had much wear on them and there was no way this kind of damage could have been done driving 27 miles,
How could this type of damage not happen in 27 miles? If there was no oil, it could have happened in 2 seconds of running dry. These again leads me to believe your master tech, isn't being totally honest, or isnt very experienced or well taught in motors, let alone performance motors.

Im sure you will keep us updated on anything that occurs. But your irrate attitude in the emails you first sent me dont make me feel you are going to be very understanding. I do appreciate your last email to me however, that was quite nice of you to understand my situation and let me deal with that first.

Kian
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Old 08-03-2003, 04:47 AM   #12
spiralsmurf
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your screenname suits you well....Doodiehead.
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Old 08-03-2003, 05:55 AM   #13
kaos200
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Default

Quote:
Originally posted by spiralsmurf
your screenname suits you well....Doodiehead.
hey now lets not get this thread locked
kplzthx
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Old 08-03-2003, 12:27 PM   #14
spiralsmurf
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ok ok. its just funny when people really jump the gun assume they could never be at fault.
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Old 08-03-2003, 01:42 PM   #15
Aphex
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Default

well keep in mind it was a very expensive purchase, so I'm sure plenty of emotions were involved, and he started this thread I think probably just after he found out it seems. You can see a calming trend in the posts, and also Kian noted his last email was very nice. it's nice to see two adults work something out, at this point this is just for these two to sort out. shouldn't be much activity here until something is resolved.
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Old 08-03-2003, 01:52 PM   #16
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i can't identify with the emotional thing after a blown engine...
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Old 08-24-2003, 11:47 PM   #17
DoodieHead
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Default

Hi all,
Have not been around for a while due to my turbo installation. Everything is installed (excluding the block) and working great. Wish the block would have worked out so I could be pushing more than 8lbs of boost. As far as the turbo goes it is working excellent. My setup is a VF22 w/ Hyperflow FMIC kit, 565cc STI injectors, Brullen catless exhaust, Autronic ECU, and a few other goodies.

I was just wondering if anyone knew where to get some .50mm undersized rod bearings. That is all I need to get the block up and running again (bought new piston rings and re-machined the crank and rods).

Thanks,
M|key
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