Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Thursday April 17, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-09-2001, 11:10 AM   #1
IMPREZIV
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 862
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: NY
Question Ice on intercooler

I am finally gonna race my whip tw. and I was planning on icing the intercooler. Is it recomended to put a grill over the actual intercooler, or is it ok just to dump the ice on there? Also, how many bottles of octane boosters should I put in?
Thanks,
Peter
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
IMPREZIV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2001, 11:34 AM   #2
illmatic
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 3536
Join Date: Jan 2001
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: SD, OC
Vehicle:
2013 SWP BRZ Limited
2002/2003 AW/PSM WRX

Post

I was wondering too. Crushed or cubes?hehe
illmatic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2001, 11:56 AM   #3
Frank_M
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 5174
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Los Angeles, CA USA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Wagon
WR Blue

Post

oops

[ June 09, 2001: Message edited by: Frank_M ]
Frank_M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2001, 11:58 AM   #4
Frank_M
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 5174
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Los Angeles, CA USA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Wagon
WR Blue

Post

ice is ice just try not to overfill the "basin", of your IC

also Octane booster is BS...I Can't believe people actually use that crap

it's has horrible ingredients for your engine's Combustion Chambers's, valves and Cats and raises Octane like 0.2 points


better off using Sunoco 100 Octane unleaded race gas if you live on the east coast

and UnoCal 76 100 Oct. un-leaded RG out west
Frank_M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2001, 03:18 PM   #5
burr101
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 907
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Harrisville, RI
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Sedan
Silver

Post

ice on the intercooler:
i used it when i went dragging. it seemed to help alot... when i was waiting in line for my second run i kept putting fresh ice on the IC. when i finnally got up i felt the IC and it was nice and frosty (and all the ice had melted off) just before i put down the hood. i had my best run of 14.8 @ 91 mph bone stock. i used cube but i think crushed would be good because the cubes dented some of my fins.

shaun
burr101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2001, 04:28 PM   #6
Necromancer
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 477
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Vancouver
Vehicle:
GC4 -> GGA -> GM6
Yeah, that's about right.

Post

Dry ice is colder...

Liquid nitrogen is even colder...

I also recommend running a mix of pure 50/50 octane booster and Techron.
Necromancer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2001, 04:36 PM   #7
Yellow Rex
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 6725
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Vehicle:
2002 IMPREZA WRX
BLAZE YELLOW

Post

I like the idea of icing the IC, but I don't want to bend the fins. I guess I'll look into it when I take my car to the dragstrip. Oh yeah, what will higher octane get you? Unless the boost is raised somehow or the timing advanced, I don't see how higher octane would help. Of course, if one really needs higher octane, there is usually 102 octane unleaded at the track pumps.
Yellow Rex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2001, 11:33 PM   #8
Frank_M
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 5174
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Los Angeles, CA USA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Wagon
WR Blue

Post

HEAT increases detonnation

that's why you ICE the intercooler

anything the IC can't help with is

made up for with High octane

you do NOT want, the ECU to pull timing back at the strip


BTW here is a link that shows how worthless

"off the shelf" octane boosters are

Gasoline FAQ


get your self some real 100 octane if you want a "bragging rights" time slip
Frank_M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2001, 11:57 PM   #9
Adrian128
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 3346
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Sydney,Australia
Vehicle:
2001 WRX Wagon
Silver

Smile

Actually..if you're careful when you put the ice on the IC, you won't bend the fins. Just lay the ice on top.. you don't have to throw it there, and don't try to move them around, cause for some reason they tend to stick to the metal. I just used some ice from our ice maker at home, and they were quite large pieces, and they cooled the IC down real well.
Adrian128 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2001, 12:20 AM   #10
subywan-kenobi
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4268
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: San Jose, CA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Wagon
WR Blue Pearl

Post

Actually octane booster does work, it just doesn't give the gains that they claim. If you are already using high octane like 93 or 94, you can only expect a 1 to 2 octane boost, but if you are dumb and using 87, then you will get a gain of about 4 to 6.

Mike S.
subywan-kenobi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2001, 01:07 AM   #11
Danny5
The Emperor Protects
Moderator
 
Member#: 13
Join Date: Jun 1999
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Glendale, AZ
Vehicle:
2014 Chevy Cruze
Diesel

Post

Buy those big ziplock bags and a 8lb bag of ice. Fill the ziplock bag with ice, and gently lay this on your intercooler. Between runs, use a small ice chest to keep the remaining ice and the ice in the ziplock bag as cold as possible.

Worked very well for Kastle and Aaron here when the weather was 104F!

If you need more pictures, go to http://www.azscooby.com/multimedia/speedworld/index.php and download Smoke & Trash or Kastle Time.

-Dan
Danny5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2001, 08:30 AM   #12
zaidallas
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4106
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Expected whp/torque at 25 psi : 450
Post

like mentioned earlier I also put ice on the IC between runs and the big ice chunks actually stuck to hte fins when melting and didn't slide off and it made the IC very cold.
zaidoun
zaidallas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2001, 11:14 AM   #13
Yellow Rex
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 6725
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Vehicle:
2002 IMPREZA WRX
BLAZE YELLOW

Post

Hi Frank_M,

You are saying then that the computer in the WRX will pull back the timing when it sees detonation? If that is the case, all those peeps considering the J&S unit should just keep their money for more effective mods!

I thought that the WRX had the fuel and timing maps already programmed conservatively so the car would not detonate on or off boost as long as the factory settings are not changed. In that case, higher octane gas would do nothing. I used to burn racing fuel in my GSR at the strip but I also advanced the timing and ran a Jackson Racing supercharger (by the way, those Georgia summer days are really hot!).
If I make mods to my car that raise the boost or otherwise increase the ppossiblity of detonation, I'll use high ocytane gas for sure. Same goes if the car is actually pulling back the timing at any point because of detonation.
Oh yeah, I'll try the ice for sure!
Yellow Rex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2001, 11:57 AM   #14
yebokmj
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 2213
Join Date: Aug 2000
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Raymond, NH USA
Vehicle:
1995 Impreza w/EJ257
Brilliant Red

Post

The ECU deffinately knows what kind of gas it's running. That is why it is able to use 87 in an emergency. It will lower the boost levels and adjust the timing to compinsate for the low ocatane. This is direct from SOA at a training session.
Joshua
Subaru Salesman
yebokmj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2001, 02:03 PM   #15
cdigerlando
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 6070
Join Date: Apr 2001
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Longwood, FL
Vehicle:
9202 SVX, WRX
92 Sil/Blk, 02 Sil

Post

And how does it know? It does have timing retard and detonation sensors, but it does not increase timing to achieve max timing advance based on fuel quality. Just retardation from factory settings if 87 is used.
cdigerlando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2001, 02:38 PM   #16
Yellow Rex
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 6725
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Vehicle:
2002 IMPREZA WRX
BLAZE YELLOW

Question

OK, does the computer advance the timing as much as possible all the time? If it works like that, then high octane gas will definitely help performance If not, it is just a waste of $$. Racing fuel is not cheap, I can't remember how much I paid but it seems that it was a lot, maybe around $5 or more per gallon.

Also, if the computer will retard the timing enough to run 87 octane gas, why not use it all the time? It's hella cheaper for everyday driving. I don't think for one minute that the computer can actually accomodate for the octane rating of fuel. If I ever get 87 octane gas in my car, I'm going to correct that problem ASAP.

Oh yeah, about those J&S (or similar) devices, they have some serious drawbacks. I had one in my turbo charged Miata as did some of my friends. We found that when the J&S detected detonation it retarded the timing so much that it really hurt performance. Sure it protected the engine but at a very high cost (performance wise). Also, we found that the J&S would often pull timing back even when there was no detonation. The problem is that if the sensitivityy is not set high enough, it will not detect detonation and it will be worthless, if the sensitivity was set high enough, it seemed to be too sensitive. They might have made improvements since then, but we all ended up taking those off the cars and just running more conservative timing sttings.

The reason I post all this is because this discussion about fuel octane assumes that the will adjust timing (and perhaps fuel) curves to suit the octane of the fuel. I do not think that this is done at this time. I think that if the timing is adjusted to suit, higher octane fuels are advantageous, if not, either you are endangering your engine or suffering from poor performance.

Manuel
Yellow Rex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2001, 02:46 PM   #17
roninscar
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 2306
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Orlando, FL, USA
Vehicle:
2000 RS Sedan
Blue Ridge Pearl

Post

Has anyone ever tried just spraying on one of those cans of compressed air? They are pretty frosty coming out, or the cold spray they use for athletic injuries, don't think that would harm the IC.

Just musing, but no bent fins

cheers,
scotto
roninscar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2001, 03:10 PM   #18
Inferno
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4016
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Somewhere in Suffolk
Vehicle:
1995 SQC #036
Forest Green Impreza L

Post

I tried spraying that compressed air stuff but I think putting the ice on top works just a little bit better than the compressed air.
Inferno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2001, 05:38 PM   #19
McKenzie
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 5188
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Casper, Wyoming USA
Vehicle:
2002 Black WRX Sedan
13.91@95.25mph <--4929ft

Wink

I ran 14.85 @ 95.9mph in stock condition. I live and race at 5,800 ft elevation. Using Dry Ice on the intercooler I dropped .20 tenths and gained 3mph, running a 14.64 @ 98.7mph.
McKenzie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2001, 05:44 PM   #20
McKenzie
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 5188
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Casper, Wyoming USA
Vehicle:
2002 Black WRX Sedan
13.91@95.25mph <--4929ft

Lightbulb

An idea for those who would like to try Dry Ice without bending fins... buy some 1/8" hobby screen, cutt it to the size of the intercooler core. Pop the screen inside the core frame... Vola! instant bug screen A.K.A. a "Go" for using Dry Ice.
McKenzie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2001, 07:26 PM   #21
XT6Wagon
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 524
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: WA
Vehicle:
04 STi
White

Post

Just use a smaller bag of ice. I think they sell 2lb bags at most stores.
XT6Wagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2001, 08:52 PM   #22
rbehny
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 1908
Join Date: Jul 2000
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: HR
Post

just a question...what do you think of CO2 on a intercooler? It's a quick frost. I've done it with the paintball tanks but i don't know how a intercooler would stand up to it. Would it even be good for the engine?
rbehny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2001, 08:53 AM   #23
WoRX4Me
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 4593
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Sedan
Raichu Yellow

Post

Basic law of physics: For internal combustion engines, heat is bad. Any way you can remove heat, without damaging the components, is going to increase power. Back in the 80's, the big "trick" was injecting water into the intake. This adds mass to the charge and thus removes more heat. Turbos respond very well to this if injected after compression. Air/water intercoolers (like the new Jackson Racing one, unlike the stock Air/Air in the WRX) are far more efficient at removing heat from the intake. That's why the JR unit is only coffee-can sized. Any water added to the Air/Air will remove heat. If used in solid form, it will remove even more heat. The biggest problem is keeping water on the IC until it has removed as much heat as it can (called saturation). Racers have used (food) coolers modified will heat exchangers to cool themselves, oil, intakes, differentials, etc. for many years. My philosophy is to do whatever helps with the least amount of effort. Pesticide sprayers filled with water a very popular with the VW/Audi crowd. Just keep it wet until it stays wet. Bottom-line, evaporation is a cooling process and will help the cause.
WoRX4Me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2001, 10:21 PM   #24
Edward Jay
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 6247
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Redmond, WA
Post

The most likely answer to the spark advance question is that the ECU probably has a spark map for 93 octane, one for 90 octane, and one for 87 octane (or similar octane numbers). If the motor doesn't ping on the 87 octane curve, then the ECU will move towards the 90 octane setting over time. If it still doesn't ping, it'll move towards the 93 octane setting. (Alternatively, it may assume 93 octane to begin with and go down from there.) But it stops at 93 octane. The manufacturer wouldn't bother to generate spark advance curves beyond 93-94 octane. These curves must go through extensive validation work, especially since they affect emissions. 99% of customers don't even know that you can get unleaded higher than 94 octane. So it's just not worth the extra engineering expense.

But there's still a good reason to run high octane if you are racing. The added heat under racing conditions will increase the chances of detonation. 93 octane may not be enough to avoid ping. When the ECU hears ping, it usually reacts *downward* very quickly (like within a couple of pings). It'll pull out spark very quickly, and boost as well. Going back up takes a much longer time. So you want to do everything possible to prevent ping, because you'll suddenly find yourself down on power.

For racing, I think the best way to go is to disconnect the knock sensor, run 100 octane, and use your ears to detect knock. This will make the car more consistent, causing it to run at the 93 octane spark advance and maximum boost tables all the time. Hopefully 100 octane is enough to avoid detonation. This technique has worked for me.

I don't have firsthand knowledge of Subaru ECU programming, so I could be wrong. But it's what I've seen for other ECUs.

As far as ice on the intercooler goes, I think the dry ice would be especially effective if you crushed it into chunks that still allowed decent airflow through the ice and into the intercooler. Use just enough for a run. I imagine you'd knock down the intake temps considerably more than with water ice. Plus, you don't have to worry about getting the track wet. I may just have to build me an electronically controlled dry ice crusher/ conveyor/ dispenser instead of a spray bar.

A CO2 can won't produce nearly enough cooling. It's too puny.

I suppose the "cool" thing about having an intercooler on the top of the motor is that it's especially easy to ice down. On the downside, it seems to get rather warm when you're not moving. A fan might help.
Edward Jay is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Dry Ice on the Intercooler? Would this really work? stevenj2025 General Community 93 08-12-2009 04:33 PM
Leave ice on intercooler at strip? karl750 Motorsports 46 05-29-2007 10:58 PM
dry ice on intercooler. dan95gst Impreza Forum 12 06-30-2004 08:10 PM
AutoX and Ice on the intercooler RS_4U2NV Motorsports 14 03-27-2004 02:45 PM
Ice on intercooler? Work? 03mbpREX Proven Power Bragging 5 07-12-2003 01:54 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.