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Old 07-25-2003, 03:21 PM   #1
Shizz-nida
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Default Twin engine '91 Talon

A friend of mine (and former Suby owner) has been working on this project for quite some time. Its nice to see it finally running on its own power. I give you the Twin Talon!


http://kaizen.eaglecars.com/twintalon.wmv

Shizz
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Old 07-25-2003, 03:29 PM   #2
gongzero
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you know, i've been thinking how cool that would be ever since i read the book A Scanner Darkly by Philip K Dick -- it's set in the near future and there's a highway scene that mentions "one of those new twin-engined Porsches".

so i'm guessing that the front engine powers the front wheels and the rear engine powers the rear? the logistics of throttle control must be a nightmare.
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Old 07-25-2003, 03:31 PM   #3
Shizz-nida
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Quote:
Originally posted by gongzero
you know, i've been thinking how cool that would be ever since i read the book A Scanner Darkly by Philip K Dick -- it's set in the near future and there's a highway scene that mentions "one of those new twin-engined Porsches".

so i'm guessing that the front engine powers the front wheels and the rear engine powers the rear? the logistics of throttle control must be a nightmare.
Indeed... Lowtech solution has been to simply link them. We were running two gas pedals, but that proved to be a bit, um, confusing!

Shizz
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Old 07-25-2003, 03:34 PM   #4
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ROFLMAO...I love the "No thanks to Miko" part...

even though it's probably a very heavy car now, I would think that weight distribution would be fairly good.
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Old 07-25-2003, 03:44 PM   #5
gongzero
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shizz-nida


Indeed... Lowtech solution has been to simply link them. We were running two gas pedals, but that proved to be a bit, um, confusing!

Shizz


very cool. i'd love to see how you've got the power going to the wheels... two transmissions? that sounds like shifting gears would be confusing too...
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Old 07-25-2003, 03:54 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by gongzero




very cool. i'd love to see how you've got the power going to the wheels... two transmissions? that sounds like shifting gears would be confusing too...
Two built auto trannies. They're slaved off of one TCU. Both have Quaiffe ATB LSD's. Right now the back tranny isn't electronically connected so its in its default of third gear. Once the rear has the ability to shift gears, it should be beastly. And that's with no fine tuning, just setting the timing and letting the wastegate spring control boost (about 7psi per motor). Vinny will probably be posting soon so you can get the info straight from the Mad Scientist himself.

Shizz
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Old 07-25-2003, 03:57 PM   #7
jasona
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i have a friend whos been wanting to do the same thing to his talon
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Old 07-25-2003, 04:31 PM   #8
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All I got was a bunch of code when I clicked that link.
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Old 07-25-2003, 04:50 PM   #9
Vineet Singh
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Thumbs up

Haven't posted here for a while, hi everyone!

Thanks for the positive comments, the car should have been done a year ago, but we ran into engine problems after running it around for 10-20 minutes, which caused financial problems, and you know how that goes

The transmission shifter is a single stock shifting assembly, with an identical reversed stock cable (extended about 6") to a custom arm and mount on the front of the A/T. It snicks into each gear well enough, that you don't know you are shifting 2 transaxles.

Yes, the dual throttle pedals had too much play in the rear to be useful, 1/16" of play on the pedal shaft turned into almost 3/4" at the end of the arm, and the movement is only like 2" total. No need to do dual anyway, since the tranny's are linked mechanically and electrically.

Once we just welded an offset arm for the 2nd throttle, the response was within a percent or two according to the TPS sensors, and it works and sounds great.

The firewall, which was missing last year, makes a huge difference in comfort and safety. It's easily removable.

If you have any questions about the car, just post! I'm sure we will get it running better and better in the next few weeks. Right now I/we gotta take a break, had been working non-stop 12hour days for the last 5-6 weeks to get it running.

Here is what is in it,

7psi, no boost control utilized yet
No real tuning (except for timing and idle speed)
450cc injectors (please, someone send us 8 660's or 720's, thanks
18g FP turbos
Level 10 FWD A/T's with Protorque TC's
Quaife ATB's (RRE)
2.3 4g63t x2, Ross Pistons, SS valves, etc etc.
M/T cams
MAFT's from Ramchargers
Dual SMIC's for front, A/W for rear (Dejon front, Dolphies-welding rear)
Fluidyne Rad's and SS hose from Roadrace
DSS Coilovers (2 front sets)
Lexus wheels, SP9000 runflats
EVO manifolds and O2 housings (FP)
Completely sealed custom rear firewall with plexiglass top portion
3" Custom dual mandrel exhaust
Stealth RT/TT Cat (front engine only)
3000gt SL front brakes, single piston dsm front brakes in rear
2 8gal custom fuel cells
Single throttle pedal with custom ultralight aircraft cable supply house
Lots of metal shavings, welding, nuts, and tools hidden throughout
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Old 07-25-2003, 04:58 PM   #10
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yeah, Car and Driver did a Twin engine CRX almost 18 years ago.
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Old 07-25-2003, 05:00 PM   #11
JewPac42
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And Vector did a twin northstar Eldorado. Doesnt make it any less cool.
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Old 07-25-2003, 05:28 PM   #12
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Hmmmm, front engine in drive, rear in reverse...... imagine the burnouts
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Old 07-25-2003, 05:39 PM   #13
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But what we all want to know...

Does it pass emissions?!
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Old 07-25-2003, 06:39 PM   #14
Vineet Singh
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Back in 1966, George Hurst built a twin engine oldsmobile 442 "Hairy Hurst Olds", and numerous tractors and dragsters with dual and even tripple engines. I wanted to own one, be streetable, and have something to do for the past 2 years Damn CORONA beers

The front engine will pass emissions with a Stealth TT cat, but not with both engines running. This is sniffer only, if it's visually inspected, probably not.

Can't do the reverse/forward, since there is only one TCU for safety and ease of use. The car can only be treated as FWD for short distances, or AWD, never RWD

We CAN adjust the rear steering rack (welded through), to give the rear wheels some tilt, and drive around @ WOT in tight circles... hmm, more interesting movie ideas
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Old 07-25-2003, 06:55 PM   #15
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wow, that was impressive. i don't even think it will be as heavy as something like that would seem to be. What does a stock talon weigh anyway?
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Old 07-25-2003, 07:23 PM   #16
Vineet Singh
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It's right around 3600lbs, with driver, lighter than my stock 91 Stealth RT/TT. Stock 1g's (FWD) weighed in around < 2850lbs, and 3200lbs for AWD with average sized driver and no other excess loads.

We deleted the drive shaft, the tcase, , A/C system, Radio, speakers, popup lights and mechanisims, stock fuel tank (large and pretty heavy), rear diff, ebrakes, and seats/hatch floor/spare. The new exhaust is also lighter than stock. We then added in around 600lbs of stuff.

+160 for transmission, +330 for engine/head/turbo, + ~100 for all extra fluids and containers/coolers and reinforcement.

I'm under 200lbs, and so is Tyler.

GVWR for the AWD (the chassis it's mostly based off of), is 3990lbs. We are well below that max.

Thanks for the comments!
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Old 07-25-2003, 07:39 PM   #17
sperry
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Very impressive! Make sure to post some more footage once you get the gearing and boost control worked out! That thing's a BEAST!!
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Old 07-25-2003, 07:44 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by SenorFartman
Hmmmm, front engine in drive, rear in reverse...... imagine the burnouts
It's been done in an old Tiburon (sp?) the pictures were way cool. Apparently it would just slowly rotate while spewing smoke.
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Old 07-25-2003, 10:44 PM   #19
wako29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vineet Singh
Back in 1966, George Hurst built a twin engine oldsmobile 442 "Hairy Hurst Olds"
Hot Rod Magazine did a thing of this a little while back (note: everything following is IIRC)
it was a 442 with both motors being blown, and highly built, 455. they had a picture of it just roasting the tires when they first built it, but then they got smart and tubbed both ends with M/T tread. They showed a pic of the launch but lets just leave this ---> as to what is was like. 60 foot time was something like 1.5 seconds.
anyways, looks really good, and just keep us updated
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Old 07-25-2003, 10:50 PM   #20
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what about those twin engine suzuki hill climb monsters in GT2?

those things are the sickness.
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Old 07-25-2003, 10:53 PM   #21
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cuz those are built on a budget that says "$ is no object"

plus, IIRC, they work together kinda like the AWD Sube system. When it senses no traction in one area, it transfers power, etc.

but, they do make ungodly amount of power, plus weigh next to nothing, so yes, they are the sickness
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Old 07-26-2003, 12:10 PM   #22
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Some magazine had an article about a twin-engine Hundai at some point. Two automatic transmissions, not connected to each other, just left stock with the exception of the shifter. Full driveability.


From http://scc.primediaautomotive.com/ar...e01_0302.shtml





Quote:
It also produced the most impressive burnout ever put rubber on tarmac. Michael McIntyre's twin-engine Hyundai put 627 hp to the ground in our dyno competition. It did the same thing here--in a completely different way. McIntyre's car uses two independently controlled automatic transmissions, giving him the ability to operate them in drive and reverse at the same time--which is exactly what he did. The resulting automotive tug of war was enough to send any chassis engineer into convulsions.

With the front tranny in reverse and the rear in drive, McIntyre laid into the go pedal and didn't lift until he'd made enough tire smoke to put California's Air Resources Board on high alert. The car began to slowly rotate on its axis as all four drive wheels fought each other for dynamic control. In about 10 seconds, the entire car was engulfed. When it was over, the ground was covered with smoldering piles of rubber and the most confused burnout marks ever made. He won. No one else even came close.


Enjoy.
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Old 07-26-2003, 03:46 PM   #23
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Awesome.....
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