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Old 07-26-2003, 04:13 AM   #1
ChicksDigWagons
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New Turbo Project...

Default Turbo Kit Install Progress/Observations

Day One:

Okay, so it was hardly a productive day due to a rainout. I did get some things accomplished, and made some discoveries. To get you started here is a basic run-down on the setup I'm working on.

Stock WRX intercooler/turbo mounted with stock intercooler piping.
Homebuilt upipe and twin-dump downpipe
Complete homebuilt 2.5" exhaust
Walbro 255lph fuel pump
Apexi S-AFC
Legacy Turbo injectors



The first thing I tried today was fitting the intercooler. Suprisingly, the intercooler itself fits just fine between the TB and the firewall without any of the plumbing attached to the bottom. With the Y-pipe fully installed, it starts to hit things. Primarily the seam running under the brake-lines and the big bump for the pitch-stop mount. I 'clearanced' the general area with a hammer and got it to fit, but a major problem turned out to be the AC line (the silver one):


It wasn't a huge difficulty to get it to fit if I moved the AC line down a bit, the fit was tight but manageable. The real issue was with the turbo itself. With the AC line as low as possible, besides it being in the pitch-stops way, it brings it closer to the turbos way than I liked. I cut off the mounting bracket on the AC line, and tucked it in between the IC and the Y-pipe. That produced the most likeable results thus far, and will probably be the way I keep it for now. Regardless, after playing with some downpipe configurations I realized that the angle on the downpipe was going to be my limiting factor before the AC line was so now I'm not too worried on AC line-Turbo clearance.

Short Term Solution: Either run the AC line between the IC and Y-pipe, or cram it in there under the Y-pipes.
Long Term: Run braided stainless in place of the rigid pipe.

I do wish the IC fit a little more loosely. Its an interference fit right now. I'm going to try shaving down the IC outlet a bit, that should free up some valuble space between the IC and firewall.

After that it started pouring. I tried to wait it out but it wouldn't let up. I ended up reinstalling my intake in the rain, and driving my car home with open headers Needless to say it was really loud. I eventually got a chance to put the rest of my exhaust on, but I didn't bother with any gaskets so it still loud Tomorrow I am hoping the rain will subside so I can get more accomplished. Otherwise I'll have to wait until monday when my garage will finally get its power turned on. Wish me luck.

-Brad
http://www.subaruwagon.com
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Old 07-26-2003, 04:43 AM   #2
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Good luck!
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Old 07-26-2003, 06:34 AM   #3
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Way cool. Keep the good info coming, bro.
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Old 07-26-2003, 06:55 AM   #4
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I am just about to start this project myself. I have all the parts sitting here at my feet. Keep the info and the pic's coming as they are very very helpful
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Old 07-26-2003, 10:06 AM   #5
PHATsuby
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nice write up and pics so far, keep it up!

Ben
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Old 07-26-2003, 11:07 PM   #6
Kevin Thomas
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Keep up the good work Brad. This looks like a really interesting project. A lot of us can learn something from this.
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Old 07-27-2003, 05:10 AM   #7
ChicksDigWagons
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Thanks alot for the words of encouragment everybody. I especially appreciate it comming from you Kevin, since I give you much of the credit for inspiring me to undertake a project like this. Hard to imagine that it was close to two years ago that I decided I was going to do this. Its even funnier to think about the fact that our cars are twins.

Nick: I managed to fix my water feed fitting dillema, I'll try to remember to throw up a pic. You'll be impressed with my ingenuity (read: desparation)

I'm putting much faith in myself, my welder, and the weather to complete this project in the next two days. Should be very interesting. I promise to keep up with the updates and the pictures. (though it proves difficult to remember to snap pictures in the middle of a project)

Thanks everyone.
-Brad Weingartner

Last edited by ChicksDigWagons; 07-27-2003 at 06:37 AM.
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Old 07-27-2003, 06:29 AM   #8
ChicksDigWagons
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Doh! It's 6:30am, what can I say?



-Brad

Last edited by ChicksDigWagons; 07-27-2003 at 06:36 AM.
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Old 07-28-2003, 08:01 AM   #9
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Keep at it Brad, keep at it.
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Old 07-28-2003, 08:55 AM   #10
Graham
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Lookin good. There's nothing like the satisfaction of having a turbocharged car for a cheap price. WRX turbo kits are the way to go.


Graham
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Old 07-30-2003, 06:28 AM   #11
ChicksDigWagons
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I've been awake for 37 hours as of now, so I'll keep this brief for now. Got a chance to put some long hours in the garage and am getting mighty close to having something finished. I took quite a few pictures as well. If I wasn't on the verge of unconciousness I'd post the relative ones Instead I'll throw a few random ones up, safe the details on my trials and tributations for a more wakeful moment...









-Brad (tired)
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Old 08-01-2003, 06:30 AM   #12
ChicksDigWagons
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Another short post.

- Even 4psi is stupid fast compared to stock.

- Enough masking tape CAN make a sufficient elbow on an intake.

- And open downpipe isn't tooo loud.

More later.

-Brad
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Old 08-01-2003, 10:15 AM   #13
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Pictures! Its good to see ya finnaly got it running.
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Old 08-01-2003, 08:21 PM   #14
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Looks good! It's funny how long you can go with out sleep when you are doing something that you really want to do
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Old 08-02-2003, 11:34 PM   #15
ChicksDigWagons
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Default About time

The car is finally getting there. Its fully driveable now, I even let my 17 year old brother borrow it for a ~300 trip and it survived with no catastrophy. Good news. There are a few things I still need to work out however:

Exhaust after the downpipe needs to be completed. Got pulled over yesterday for loud exhaust, I explained that I needed a gasket that was on order and everything was fine. Didn't mention the turbo though

The intake is sealed with tape. Not exactly perfect, just one of those things you overlook I guess. I meant to order the right peices, but it just never happened. For now, it works fine however, thats the important thing.

Debating whether the legacy turbo injectors are worth my trouble right now or not, and whether I should bother sending them to RC for a checkup. At 4-5psi I'm having no problems at all keeping the fuel supply up with the Walbro and S-AFC.

I would like to modify the S-AFC to use a MAP instead of a TPS. Just a matter of money on this one really. Money is tight, no fun.

Some slight tweaks to the up and downpipe are in order, but otherwise they are very close to ideal and I'm very happy with them. I also would like to play around with a twin-dump design as well. I need to get some flanges made up first though.


For anybody who has been considering using a stock WRX turbo and intercooler, there are a few things I wish I would have known:

Make sure to get all the fittings on the turbo for the oil drain and coolant lines. The oil feed is a peice of cake on the turbo side though. I ended up having to make my own oil drain and coolant fittings. They do in fact work, and in fact the coolant lines I made work better than the stock ones for my setup even.


My oil drain fitting I made in a pinch. Works fine, but its too big. I have to use 5/8" hose and adapt it to 1/2" hose for the oil pan.

Make sure you get everything you need for the intercooler too! I bought mine without the Y-pipe, and it took me a while to get one. For the BOV, I ended up making my own flange for that too. Its not perfect, but again it gets the job done.

Give yourself more than one day, no matter how many times you've ran through it. It took me two days, and granted I had to completely custom build my up and downpipes, it still would have taken that long just because there were little parts that I forgot and couldn't get at 3am.

The oil pan was the biggest pain of the whole project, even bigger than the oil feed line on the block. Maybe it was because it was getting late and I had been up for so long, but it was mighty frustrating!

Probably the best way to attack it is to just unbolt the engine mounts from the crossmember, remove the pitch stop mount and jack up the engine. A funny thing happened when I did this though. Coolant leaked out of my thermostat housing. I'm assuming things flexed just enough to let it seep out and drip a little bit. After lowering it and running it I have zero leakage and no coolant loss. Just a quirk I guess, maybe because its a 120,000 mile engine.

Speaking of difficult, the oil feed was a pain as well. I ended up removing the IAC unit, and that was enough. Its certainly a tight fit. My original plans was to T off and put my oil-pressure sending unit under there as well, but that didn't work out. No room unless I ran a stainless line from the fitting elsewhere. Since I didn't have anything I could use I just didn't install the sending unit for now. I may install it using the front oil plug under the alternator later.


Heres a shot of the oil plug at the back of the block. The gasket you see at the top of the picture is from the IAC. Three bolts, one plug and two coolant lines connect to this unit. The coolant lines are a pain, and the bottom bolt can be a pain as well. The round plug with an allen fitting at the top is the plug itself.


Picture of the IAC itself. Little bugger!


This is the first way I tried putting the oil feed on. Just used a plug that fits in the subaru block and has a 1/4" NPT on it, into a 1/4" NPT -> -3AN adaptor -> 19" -3AN stainless line -> -3AN 10mm banjo -> 10mm x 1.5 banjo bolt. It didn't fit. So I put a 90* 1/4" NPT fitting between the plug and the adaptor so it looks more like this:


That fit like a glove.


Thats all for now, I'm missing alot of points and lots of pictures, but I'm working on putting together an extensive and specific guide to installing a turbo like I did. I hope this at least helps some people get a start.

-Brad Weingartner
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Old 08-02-2003, 11:42 PM   #16
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Well it looks like you beat me in getting your kit installed Congrats! So how does it feel? pulling hard? again, congrats.
-Neal
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Old 08-03-2003, 03:16 AM   #17
8Complex

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Default Re: About time

Quote:
Originally posted by ChicksDigWagons
Debating whether the legacy turbo injectors are worth my trouble right now or not, and whether I should bother sending them to RC for a checkup. At 4-5psi I'm having no problems at all keeping the fuel supply up with the Walbro and S-AFC.

I would like to modify the S-AFC to use a MAP instead of a TPS. Just a matter of money on this one really. Money is tight, no fun.
Injectors would do you well, though if you're sure you're getting enough fuel, more power to you. Do you have any means of timing control?

The TPS and MAP both use 0-5v signals, you should be able to just swap wires for that (as I believe it's a load reference that the S-AFC uses to switch over it's own maps) and compensate in your head for which is which. On a 1 bar sensor, 4.8v (maybe 4.85v) is atmospheric... so that'd be 97%. *shrug*
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Old 08-03-2003, 08:54 AM   #18
ChicksDigWagons
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Default Re: Re: About time

Quote:
Originally posted by 8Complex


Injectors would do you well, though if you're sure you're getting enough fuel, more power to you. Do you have any means of timing control?

The TPS and MAP both use 0-5v signals, you should be able to just swap wires for that (as I believe it's a load reference that the S-AFC uses to switch over it's own maps) and compensate in your head for which is which. On a 1 bar sensor, 4.8v (maybe 4.85v) is atmospheric... so that'd be 97%. *shrug*
Yeah, I would definately like to install the injectors, but it takes time I don't have. Plus I would like the peace of mind of knowing they all work properly by sending them out to RC first since I bought them used in unknown condition. I guess it depends on how long I can stay happy at 4-5psi. Probably not long

Yeah, using a MAP sensor is a peice of cake to do, but again, thats $50 I don't have to throw around. Its never fun to be rolling pennies for gas broke in the middle of a turbo install project. But I've been collecting parts for almost a year now so I decided it was now or never. So far so good though!

Neal: Yeah I did beat you! As hard as it is to believe... lol. You'll get it together soon though bro, have faith!

-Brad Weingartner
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Old 08-03-2003, 12:29 PM   #19
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does your car have a MAF originally? Can you just change it to a MAP that easily? the ECU won't get confused?
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Old 08-03-2003, 01:19 PM   #20
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He's not changing MAF to MAP, he using the load reference on the S-AFC as TPS now and wants to switch it to MAP.

You know, you could just go to the junkyard and nab a 1bar with the pigtail of wiring for $5... thats what I did for my Haltech setup. 2 bar out of a Chrysler turbo car worked perfectly... I'm sure the range of a 1 bar will be the same, just get a big name one, Denso or something, and stick to Hondas or American cars snice they'll more then likely have standard type sensors.
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Old 08-12-2003, 03:04 AM   #21
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More fun...

A few days ago I finished my exhuast sorta, ended up using a really old muffler that has been on my last three cars at one point or another, but it sounds nice and is MUCH quieter than an open downpipe. The delightful after effect of putting in header gaskets and fixing a few other pre-turbo leaks is that I gained an extra PSI of boost at peak. So I was up to ~6psi

And I put another 500 or so miles on my car without incident.

Today however, I installed some Legacy Turbo injectors I had laying around. The install left me a bit suprised though. They didn't fit my stock rails! I haven't heard anything about this before, everybody just says they drop right in. Well they didn't on my engine.

It wasn't a major deal, I had the legacy turbo fuel rails too, but I don't like suprises like that. Swapping the rails was just as easy as swapping the injectors anyway so I went ahead and did that. Checked for leaks, zeroed out the S-AFC and took it for a spin. It ran, but richer than Billy himself.

I haven't played a whole lot with the settings, but I'm down 25-35% accross the hi and lo ranges.

I tightened down the wastegate arm back down to normal so the wastegate stays completely closed instead of always being a few degrees open. Raised my peak boost another PSI or so putting me up to ~7psi. Even running too rich I'm definately pulling harder. I haven't checked how much my peak airflow has increased though.

Really the only negative effect the larger injectors and or increased boost has had is a slight stumbling at idle after making boost. Such as when I pull away from a stoplight and have to stop at the next one, I don't really make a whole lot of boost, get up to ~4k RPM, but as I coast to stop at the light, when the engine winds down to idle, it hiccups. Doesn't stall, just hiccups. I think I may need to add another washer to my 100% Atmos. BOV. And/Or play with the Decel-Air on the S-AFC.

So far so good, no pictures of any of the installs though Hard to remember such things.
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Old 08-12-2003, 10:14 AM   #22
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Default cool!

I am about to start a rebuild for a friend of mine. We are using the 1991 legacy turbo motor I have, rebuilding it and dropping it into her 98 OBS. We are going to use the WRX turbo and intercooler, OEM manifold and uppipe from a WRX, and such. What have you found so far about the ECM learning boost, and how it compensates? is the AFC-R all you need? are you using a manual boost controller, or an AVC-R? I figure we need a better pump than the OEM OBS pump. Since I wont have all the tap issues for oil and water, what other issues have you found so far?

Mike
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Old 08-12-2003, 04:38 PM   #23
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If you are using a MAF, then it sounds like your issue is the BOV venting to atmosphere. When driving WRXs with the same problem, I just make sure I come off boost with the car in gear. This keeps the car from freaking out. I think what is actually happening is it is kinda push starting it past the stumble.

Good to see some turboed OBSs out there. Once my two door is finished, I'll shopping for a used OBS to make a comfortable performance vehicle. Love the wagons....
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Old 08-12-2003, 04:48 PM   #24
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At low boost (~5psi), on stock injectors, the ECU compensated and handled it just fine. It there was boost, didn't throw a CEL because of it, but since the turbo was pulling more air through the MAF, it compensated. I added 15% accross the boards in HI throttle on the S-AFC just as a precaution, and it ran strong, pulled hard, and I saw no reason to believe I wasn't getting enough fuel. That was with the Walbro 255lph fuel pump.

As for boost control I have none. No AFC-R, or manual control. Just a vaccum hose straight from the wastegate to the compressor outlet. I manipulated boost first by fixing all the gaskets in the manifold and uppipe which gave me a couple extra PSI, and by manipulating the actuator arm on the turbo.

Right now, with the wastegate fully closed, I peak at about 8psi. I think that was going to be too much for my stock injectors, so I tossed in the Legacy Turbo injectors. Mixed feelings about that. The ECU is having a harder time dealing with the 60% larger injectors, I've been constantly leaning out the settings on the S-AFC, but its still running rich and I'm not confident enough to pull all the fuel because the ECU tries to compensate in closed loop mode, and that makes it hard to get any sort of predictable results from changes to the AFC without doing high-full throttle runs to put the ECM into open loop mode. And even then I'm relying on sound and a highly inaccurate O2 sensor to tell me when I've gone too far.

I'm also not crazy about using the AFC with load sensing based on TPS. I think I'll have a better time rationalizing proper map crossover points with a MAP sensor instead. Knowing I can easily have full boost at partial throttle, or little boost at full throttle depending makes me skeptical at the ability of the AFC to really properly manage the fueling.

And I haven't had much time to play. Still working on that.

-Brad
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Old 08-12-2003, 05:40 PM   #25
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Looks awesome Brad, Good Job. BTW do you happen to have any pic of your up and down pipe?
Thanks Jon
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