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Old 06-09-2003, 01:23 PM   #1
turboICE
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Default Draining all water/antifreeze mix, getting a higher temp thermostat?

Besides the radiator drain plug - is there any other drain plugs or techniques to eliminate as much of the coolant in the system as possible?

I am not looking to flush the system I am looking to remove the maximum amount of coolant/water mix before I refill with a substitute coolant.

Also any information on higher temp thermostat and fan control would be helpful.
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Old 06-09-2003, 04:20 PM   #2
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Your "substitute" coolant had better be ethylene-glycol-based, or you will forfeit your engine's warranty.
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Old 06-09-2003, 04:39 PM   #3
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It is propylene glycol based and unlike ethylene-glycol-based/water mixes will not harm the engine components. No warranty service will be successfully refused from use of this coolant.

Back to the question how to get the maximum water out of the system.
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Old 06-09-2003, 06:17 PM   #4
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there's usually a drain plug on the block as well, but i'm not as familar w/subaru's, so i'm not 100% sure where, if there is one
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Old 06-09-2003, 06:35 PM   #5
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Yeah that is what I have been looking for but there doesn't seem to be one explicitly. Looking at the general description of the block in the 2003 Mechanical Section, I am guessing the oil cooler might be the lowest point of the cooling section on the block. I could either disconnect it from the block at the cooler (27) "plug" or alternatively disconnect the cooler from (16) "waster (sic - assume they mean water) by-pass pipe" which goes to the water pump. These were my previous best guess as to the lowest points but wanted to check to see if someone had better experience with another location.
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Old 06-10-2003, 08:03 PM   #6
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Quote:
It is propylene glycol based and unlike ethylene-glycol-based/water mixes will not harm the engine components.
No difference on harming engine components between propylene glycol and ethylene glycol.
Quote:
No warranty service will be successfully refused from use of this coolant.
As long as it's silicate-free, has good anti-corrosion additives, and you use a proper ratio of coolant:water, that's true. Remember, though, that propylene glycol has less antifreeze/antiboil protection than an equal volume of ethylene glycol, so you must use a higher coolant:water ratio with propylene glycol to get the same antifreeze/antiboil protection. Remember, too, that it's the water part of the mix that carries the bulk of the heat, so don't increase the coolant:water ratio TOO high.

Just curious, why are you interested in a higher-temp thermostat?
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Old 06-10-2003, 08:31 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by armand1

No difference on harming engine components between propylene glycol and ethylene glycol.
I would generally agree - but once you add water I wouldn't. Water is the prime reason that damage occurs at all. Anti-freeze solutions have to put a anti-corrosion additives in to prevent the water from corroding the system and those additives have limited lives.

Quote:
As long as it's silicate-free, has good anti-corrosion additives, and you use a proper ratio of coolant:water, that's true. Remember, though, that propylene glycol has less antifreeze/antiboil protection than an equal volume of ethylene glycol, so you must use a higher coolant:water ratio with propylene glycol to get the same antifreeze/antiboil protection.
It is silicate free and has no anti-corrosion additives since it is water free. Those additives have limited lives, if you have no water and don't need those additives - your coolant will last a very long time. The coolant I am switching to has as good an antifreeze protection and better boil protection (-40F to 325F). And that boil protection is with no pressure - so I don't have to spend $50 on a radiator cap and I won't need a $800 radiator to prevent boiling, hot spots, etc.

Quote:
Remember, too, that it's the water part of the mix that carries the bulk of the heat, so don't increase the coolant:water ratio TOO high.
True water has a high latent heat - provided it is liquid once it vaporizes game over. Frequently near the cylinder jacket it vaporizes - generating hot spots. While this coolant does not have the same heat contant - it will not vaporize meaning it will transfer more heat at the same point that water would be vapor.

Quote:
Just curious, why are you interested in a higher-temp thermostat?
This is not as important to me - just wondering really - it is unlikely they exist since everyone wants a cooler one. Since the coolant will not boil/vaporize around the cylinders until a higher temperature - I don't need to transfer as much average heat from the cylinders. Heat is good for the cylinders - hot spots aren't. If I can run a higher average heat say 230 (coolant temp at gauge) at the cylinders rather than 210 but don't get hot spots (spikes over 255 coolant temps around the cylinders that you never see at the guage and there for effectively no heat transfer) the likelihood of knock is reduced - can run leaner and more advanced timing.

I really didn't want to get into all this because it is new and different to the board and now I am going to be accused of spreading vudoo and told how I am so wrong on each count by people who have never tried it. I just wanted to get as much water as possible out of the system. I think I found it with the oil cooler to drain the block, then draining the radiator and heater core I hope to get at least 7 quarts of water/antifreeze mix out.

Here is the coolant and more info:
http://www.evanscooling.com/html/npgPls.htm

I live for anti-knock and dumping fuel is an expensive, inefficient and I would consider uncreative solution. This combined with water injection my intent is to be able to run no richer than 12.5:1 AFR at all rpm/load points with timing pushed to the point of diminishing returns.
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Old 06-10-2003, 08:41 PM   #8
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Rifts is using Evans NPG+ coolant, might want to talk to him. There are two coolant drain plugs on the block, you need 14mm allen key for the driver's side. There's a picture of them somewhere under the GC8 section in scoobymods. Where the water-to-oil heat exchanger is, you'll see a very short hose, don't know what size that is but you'll either need a crows foot or deep socket once you pull the hose off. I'm not sure if doing all that is good enough to get all of the old stuff out, I was actually thinking of doing the same switch too but don't know how to get all the old stuff out. probably a really good drain, then fill with NPG+, then drain again after like a week or two and refill? If you do it that way you'll have to buy 4 gallons, so $90 vs 2 gallons at $50. But buying the extra will give a better flush.

Last edited by tdxflex; 06-10-2003 at 08:48 PM.
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Old 06-10-2003, 08:46 PM   #9
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Yes pretty much - but don't use the $25 per gallon npg+, use their prep fluid. It has the same water absorption as npg+ so it will pull water out as well when you use it to get it out and only have to run it through for half an hour instead of a week. It is $15 per gallon.

I will look up the GC8 one. I think one flush with the prep fluid for each quart of original mix I can't get out should get the water percentage below 5% which is considered a successful conversion by evans cooling. They agree.

So I am targetting 7 quarts drained and one flush with the prep fluid.

I bought three gallons of each so I will have extra around - since you can't fill off with water or other anti-freezes if you ever need to.

Last edited by turboICE; 06-10-2003 at 08:52 PM.
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Old 06-10-2003, 09:45 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by tdxflex
There are two coolant drain plugs on the block, you need 14mm allen key for the driver's side. There's a picture of them somewhere under the GC8 section in scoobymods. Where the water-to-oil heat exchanger is, you'll see a very short hose, don't know what size that is but you'll either need a crows foot or deep socket once you pull the hose off.
Here is the mod:
http://www.scoobymods.com/forums/sho...ighlight=drain

Actually since the oil cooler is lower than the access point as I suspected I can just disconnect the oil cooler from the water pump to drain the passenger side at least (and will have a hose already to direct the draining fluid) - we shouldn't need to remove the nipple (part 27 "plug" in the ME(H4DOTC)-11 2003 manual) that the mod installs. There is not a similar plug on the driver side but pulling the thermostat with the rear raised slightly should drain the blodk.
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Old 06-11-2003, 01:50 AM   #11
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Keep us posted on how the stuff works, sounds very interesting. I like the idea of not having to worry about changing the coolant ever again!

I wonder why more people aren't using the stuff, it seems that the only drawback to it is cost...

-Dave
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Old 06-11-2003, 02:58 AM   #12
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Interesting site and technology! Definitely keep us updated on your experience with it.

The concerns I would have on a stock Subaru would be:
1) Since NPG+ is about 3x as viscous as normal 50:50 coolant mix, will this cause the water pump to wear out faster? (when the car is cold, if you live in a 50F climate, it looks like startup viscosity is 10x or more than for normal 50:50 coolant mix)
2) NPG+ has only about 80% of the specific heat (= heat carrying capacity) of normal 50:50 coolant mix. Would this be expected to cause problems in an otherwise stock Subaru? E.g. is the total capacity of the coolant to move heat from the engine to the radiator ever maxed out under normal conditions, and would having only 80% of that capacity then cause problems?

Thanks again for sharing the info!
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Old 06-26-2003, 11:08 AM   #13
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Keep us posted. I'd like to switch to Evans NPG+ in my WRX, too.

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Old 06-26-2003, 12:21 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by GoodFinder
Keep us posted. I'd like to switch to Evans NPG+ in my WRX, too.

GoodFinder
Ditto - I've been thinking about it for a while...

Why would you run a hotter thermostat, though?

I could understand if your main goal was fuel efficiency, but as your main goal is knock/det avoidance, I'd think sticking with the oem temp of 180F would be preferable.
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Old 06-28-2003, 04:00 AM   #15
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[Since the coolant will not boil/vaporize around the cylinders until a higher temperature - I don't need to transfer as much average heat from the cylinders. Heat is good for the cylinders - hot spots aren't. If I can run a higher average heat say 230 (coolant temp at gauge) at the cylinders rather than 210 but don't get hot spots (spikes over 255 coolant temps around the cylinders that you never see at the guage and there for effectively no heat transfer) the likelihood of knock is reduced - can run leaner and more advanced timing.]

Please post your results when you are done. But I do not think it will work. At best, the coolant that you want to use is better in heat transfer and that would help the WRX cooling system and improve performance. But raising coolant temperature, especially on a turbo charged car???!!!

Performance minded BMW equip their car running a due temp stats which goes into cooler temp mode to improve performance when engine is in heavy load. The reason most today's car is running higher temp is for emission and fuel economy purposes (nothing wrong with that) Higher engine temp also heats up the engine oil and heats up incoming air; higher engine temp provide enviroment for pre-ignition and knock, and there is no coolant that will prevent that.

Also if you are running a thicker liquid, doesn't it will takes more, quite a bit more power for the engine to turn the water pump?
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Old 07-06-2003, 11:47 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by WRXBob
Please post your results when you are done. But I do not think it will work. At best, the coolant that you want to use is better in heat transfer and that would help the WRX cooling system and improve performance. But raising coolant temperature, especially on a turbo charged car???!!!
Keep in mind I am talking about higher coolant temps at the temperature gauge which is quite far from where the work of the coolant is being done. Heat is good in an I.C.E. - but hot spots on the cylinder wall are not.

Purely as an example (and hopefully those who are not thermodynamically challenged will come to confirm/save/correct/castrate me as appropriate): Suppose that with water/af mixture the temperature outside the cylinder wall averages around 250*. At 255* the water/af mixture vaporizes - the mixture has a high specific heat - but only when it is a liquid once it is vapor it can no longer effectively absorb heat from the cylinder wall. The location where the vaporization has occured will be your hot spot - it will also be the source of your preignition. This hot spot is significantly hotter than the rest of the cylinder. With NPG+ the temperature around the cylinder can be 300* with no vaporization or hot spots - while on average the cylinder is warmer there is no spot hot enough to cause preignition. Again keep in mind this is my layman explanation of something I accept and understand much better than I can explain. So maybe my water temperature gauge reads 220* instead of 195* in this situation.

See next post for post road trip feedback.
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Old 07-07-2003, 12:13 AM   #17
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OK this will be the most stressed feedback I can give.

I went out to Colorado Springs for the Pikes Peak International Hill Climb and just got back. I now have 4,400 miles on NPG+ during the hottest, driest weather since I owned my rex. It was very hot and dry while I was in Colorado.

On the way out I drove 800 miles, 700 miles and 250 miles on consective days and 250, 700 and 800 on the way back. My average speed each day was around 70-75 mph calculated from the time leaving one hotel and arriving at the next and the miles travelled. So gas, MD and pit stops are included in the time. I spent long stretches at 85 mph in cruise control going up and down hills across the high plains. With my setup on my stock turbo this means I was under 3-8 psi boost almost constantly along with some passing acceleration pressures of 18 psi thrown in for good measure. Oh and about 800 lbs. of stuff on and in the car besides myself, gf and dogs. I found a new way to add to the drop on my Eibachs (I don't recommend repeating what I did on sedan springs - I gotta get a set of wagons now). And to add to the load the GF requires max A/C if it is over 85.

First I believe this is more stress than the coolant will ever face in drag or autox - these are sustained heat generating runs of 100 miles and more. I only notice that NPG+ runs warmer from my oil gauge. The stock coolant gauge seems to still be in its sweet range. My oil temps are around 10-15* warmer than I had previously seen. I contribute half of this to driving in the wamest weather I have been able to since buying the car and half I contribute to the higher coolant temperatures at the oil cooler. The highest oil temperature I experienced was 235* after some drawn out passing on some especially long passing climbs up hills (again loaded car with max AC on).

I have done nothing other than to swap coolants. I didn't change any other aspect of the cooling system. After this I am very satisfied that the coolant is meeting my engine cooling needs. I no longer will seek to increase the temperature anymore than the NPG+ itself will naturally be vs. water/af as long as I am dependent on the stock oil cooler. I will try a higher temp thermostat if I ever install a real oil cooler. This is the only weakness I can readily identify if you are at oil temperature thresholds the stock oil cooler will not perform as well since the NPG+ will absorb less heat from the oil than the water/af mixtures would. (Oh another side note - I measure oil temps at the rear oil galley location [where the oil travels from one head to the other across the top of the block] I believe this is a more accurate location than the pan and have found in my own and others use that under heavy use it will read anywhere from 5-10* warmer than a pan or sandwich sender location)

OK now for the change - it is a pain to get all the water out. I recommend flushing at least 4 gallons of their prep fluid through and then drain every bit of fluid you can before adding the NPG+. I did 3 gallons of prep fluid and was borderline successful conversion and the water is now sitting in the top of my overflow resevior. I am going to drain the resevoir and 1 gallon of coolant add a fresh gallon of npg+ and I should be fully converted.

I can't speak at all as to how much the thicker coolant will impact the parasitic effects of the water pump. At operating temperatures I really expect it is minimal and is more than made up for by preventing preignition and the tuning opportunities that provides.

I hope this feedback has been helpful.
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Old 07-08-2003, 10:31 PM   #18
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You have an interesting hypothesis about raising the cooling system temperature. Do you know of anyone who has succesfully done this before?

Also, is your new coolant going to be the extent of your changes or are you still thinking about modifying the fan switch point and getting a hotter thermostat? I am really quite curious about your idea and am eager to hear how it works out in the real world.
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Old 07-08-2003, 11:35 PM   #19
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Evans talks on their site about having done this on deisel and NA engines.

For the time being I am abandoning the idea of increasing the coolant temp as long as the oil cooler is reliant on the the coolant to oil cooler. If I ever put in an air to oil cooler I will consider testing it out then. I don't want to encourage the oil to run any warmer than it is now.
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Old 07-09-2003, 07:43 AM   #20
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Ahhh... ok. I can understand why you're not eager to do it right now.
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Old 07-28-2003, 10:56 PM   #21
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OK this is why experiments belong in controlled labs.

Anyway last week I my piggyback had some bugs and I sent it to be swapped out. Immediately my temps were averaging 10* lower on even hot days. I just so happened I dyno tuned just before swapping the coolant - so I didn't really notice the higher temps from the tune - and assumed it was the coolant. That is 7 days of much cooler oil temps running stock vs. piggyback and it makes sense since I am almost constantly under some level of boost (given my cruising speeds) and I am running leaner and higher EGTs than stock - so higher oil temps.

Then today I got to 7,000 miles since the last oil change. I really, really, really intended to do it at 6k after my trip to CO but have not had a second free. So I go to change my oil - and check and am half a quart low. When I last changed it, I noticed it was a little low but didn't seem like much. I know bad owner. Anyway when I change it this time I put in 5 1/2 quarts and it is only slightly over. Now without ECU piggyback and proper oil levels my oil temperatures are exactly back to their stock levels before I changed the coolant - 195*-200* when cruising. This coolant appears to be working exactly as well as the stock anti-freeze/water mix and it is on average 20* warmer than when I swapped coolants.

Now to semi-test this out, when I put my piggyback on this weekend again - if myoil temps only go up by 10* - I will know for certain that the entire increase in my oil temps were from the piggyback and low oil levels - not the coolant switch.

They have a ton of test reports on their site - someone needs to do a proper report on the effect of their coolant on turbo-charged water-to-oil sandwich cooled cars.
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Old 07-28-2003, 11:21 PM   #22
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Thanks for the report, I find it very interesting. I guess the real test would be whether or not the new coolant provides a measurable amount of detonation resistance by reducing the temperature of hot-spots and allowing for a higher state of tune than normal coolant.

It's too bad there's no easy way to compare at this point except to compare your car to others which can be difficult and prone to error.

I'm surprised that tuners have not jumped all over this coolant if it is as good as they say... It would be interesting to point TXS, Vishnu, Cobb and/or Team SMR, etc, to this coolant as they would have the resources to test the performance benefits of the coolant properly.

I could see it being a valuable service to provide to customers looking for the higher levels of tune or simply more reliability under extreme operating conditions.
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