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Old 07-27-2003, 05:08 PM   #1
Patrick Olsen
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Default Aftermarket ECU options for us N/A types

I did a brief search over in the Engine Management & Tuning forum and it seems to be almost entirely WRX stuff. For those of us who are N/A and modded enough to benefit from some ECU tuning what options are available? I really don't want to go to the trouble of a full aftermarket stand-alone ECU - it just isn't worth the time and money for me.

It appears that Cobb's AccessECU is only for WRX ECU's at this point. Does anyone know if they intend to expand their ECU remapping services?

I've heard that you can get a UniChip tuned for basically any ECU, but then others I've talked to didn't think that was true. Anyone know what the scoop is there?

dcoty, I'm too lazy to search right now - what option are you using for your N/A monster?

Pat Olsen
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Old 07-27-2003, 06:48 PM   #2
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Patrick Olsen - the Unichip w/ a rev module will work. However the map on the Unichip is not as high res. as the LINK PLUS, TEC3, Autotronic etc.
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Old 07-27-2003, 06:51 PM   #3
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http://www.subaruplanet.com/electron...roecmpowerchip

They have 2 ecu's there. Both say they're for Impreza and Legacy non-turbo from 93-03. The torque chip even claims a 12lb/ft gain in stock cars. The pro-chip claims 4hp/7lbft on a stock car but it is also fully adjustable. I don't know too much about chips, but that seems to be a pretty good deals for $250.
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Old 07-27-2003, 07:19 PM   #4
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Cobb has been saying that they will have a 2.5 n/a AccessECU reflash available, but they've also been talking about the new equal length headers that have been on the drawing board. Notice that no one has either one.

I'm too lazy to find the thread on their forums, but they don't seem real optimistic that a reflash will help a n/a car as much as it does a turbo. However, they don't really address issues with highly tuned n/a engines. I'm guessing dcoty will help you out.
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Old 07-27-2003, 07:44 PM   #5
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Well,

I used the unichip for a while when i had heads and cams springs and retainers, and it worked very well for that application. But after the full rebuild we found the car was difficult to tune. Also it runs lean up high (we were not able to add more fuel) and rich down low...definitly not perfect, and it will never get there with the Uni. But for mild N/A mods like heads cams etc, it is really great in my opinion. But it depends how far you go...a piggy back only goes so far. Unichip was surprised we even got the car to run reliably with the Uni with the motor i have, they reccomended I switched to stand alone.

But my LINK did arrive last week and we plan on tuning the car after next week. We figure the link will benefit the car very very much considering its far from perfect right now and we plan on seeing mid to high 13 second passes (fingers tightly crossed!).

I hope this helped a bit. Good Luck.

Dan
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Old 07-27-2003, 09:10 PM   #6
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I don't think pat is looking for add-ons like the T2 or proecm. After running the T2 for a while, I'm not too impressed. That may be just because the age of my car and the fact I have an auto. I don't know. It was running way too rich.

A Tec III or Link would be a good option if you got the cash
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Old 07-27-2003, 10:13 PM   #7
Patrick Olsen
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Quote:
Originally posted by dcoty
Well,

I used the unichip for a while when i had heads and cams springs and retainers, and it worked very well for that application. But after the full rebuild we found the car was difficult to tune. Also it runs lean up high (we were not able to add more fuel) and rich down low...definitly not perfect, and it will never get there with the Uni. But for mild N/A mods like heads cams etc, it is really great in my opinion. But it depends how far you go...a piggy back only goes so far.
Dan,

Just to be sure I understand what you're saying, with the heads/cams/intake the Unichip offered enough tuning capability, is that correct? I was just confused a bit when you said it ran lean up high - I wasn't sure if you meant that was the case just with the "super motor" or with the "normal motor".

Pat
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Old 07-27-2003, 11:20 PM   #8
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Sorry!

Ok, with the heads, cams, valves, retainers and all the bolt ons, the car was well tuned with the Unichip. If these are the mods you plan on eventually doing, I would reccomend the Unichip as an option for sure.

The built motor is in desperate need of stand alone, the Unichip was not able to tune it well. This is the motor which was lean up high etc. I hope I cleared it up for you!

Dan
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Old 07-28-2003, 10:42 AM   #9
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Thumbs down No Cobb for us...

Pat,

I have been thinking of/wanting the Cobb reflash for some time too. But here is there response:

Chad,

We have no ETA to release on the 2.5L ECU projects. However, what I can say
is that the 1999-newer ECUs are quite different from the 1998-older ECUs.
Due to this, we will have a two-tier release for the 2.5L ECU. One being
for the 1999-newer versions and then another for the 1998-older.

Simply put, the 2.5L ECU project is really two separate things. One for the
modern ECU version which we are currently testing and then another one for
the older ECU which we have not yet begun working on.

Let me know if you have any other questions, or feel free to search and/or
post on our Forum.
www.wrxforum.com

Thanks,
Trey
COBB Tuning

so really it will be a LONG time (if ever) that the older ecu's like ours will get a reflash.

I think a good, true, tune would gain me a lot of power at my current level of mods - and you would gain even more I think Pat. A stand alone is just not in the cards for my N/A mini-beast as it will not see heads/cams (not planned anyhow...) current mods are 3" CAI, MRT header/cat, brullen 2.25" catback, LW pulleys. next up would be a LW flywhel & maybe some LW 16" wheels...

Dan? my knowledge of unichips is nill (always thought of them as wrx tuning tools) what version did you have? how was it conected to your ecu? plug and play or hard wired? also, what kind of cost would I be looking at? It can adjust fuel and timing correct?

- Chad

N/A unite!
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Old 07-28-2003, 01:49 PM   #10
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2 words:

GReddy Emanage
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Old 07-29-2003, 10:01 AM   #11
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dcoty - any insight into the N/A unichip installation and tuning


we're falling off the page...
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Old 07-29-2003, 01:08 PM   #12
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There's plenty of info on the Yoshio (Japan Automotive in Toronto)
tuning for N/A 2.5s. I've had mine done, and so have a number of
others. I am pretty pleased, and there are no piggybacks or wiring
harnesses to worry about.

Stu
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Old 07-29-2003, 05:33 PM   #13
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Thanks Stu,

But I think Yoshio has the same problems tuning the pre MAP based ECU's (like Pat and Myself have - DOHC 2.5 legacy's) as Cobb has writen me about.
If I had a newer car I would just wait for Cobb, but I'll have a different car by the time he gets it done for my '98

I'll shoot JA an email and see about this, but I'm pretty sure he can't tune my ECU.
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Old 07-29-2003, 06:27 PM   #14
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Hey guys, sorry I dissappeared!

The Unichip was sort of difficult to install, we had a few problems along the way, but Ill attribute it to bad luck. I did it with Ben at Lachute and he walked me through it. There were wire charts we had to follow to make sure we were connecting the right wires with the right terminals, and there was a bit of soldering on the mother board for the rev module.

It sure isnt a plug and play, neither is the link for my car, there is a very small amount of wiring to do, nothing like the Uni though from what I was told.

Like I said, with my mild mods, tuning was a breeze, after the new motor was put in it became very very difficult.

Dan

PS: Look into Greddy Emanage, i personally dont know anything about it but maybe its a good option
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Old 07-30-2003, 08:16 AM   #15
Kevin Thomas
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Default Well

I know the aftermarket ECUs are used for more flexibility and the reflashes are pretty much plug and play but all these options are few if any right now.

Is there any reason why not just go with a fuel controller (Ex: Apexi SAFC) and an ignition controller (Apexi ITC)? I mean, all you want to control basically is the fuel and timing right? It's not as flexible as an aftermarekt ECU but those are high $$$ and difficult to install. The plug-n-play reflashes are few if any (besides Yoshio) and there are still a lot of doubts about the Torque chip and ProECM.

Need more fuel, add some with the SAFC. Need timing pulled due to nitrous or added for use with higher octane, adjust with the ITC. And so forth!
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Old 07-30-2003, 10:43 AM   #16
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Smile

Thanks for the input Dcoty & Kevin.

Yeah, I have though that the S-AFC + ITC would do what I want. I am concerned that the ITC will throw constant CE lights though. We have emissions here (every 2 years) and a stored CE code would be bad - not to mention that I don't want to have a light looking at me all the time. Although, the ITC may not throw CE's???? I don't know

cost: a used S-AFC = $200, and a used ITC = $200, then I will need to tune it - preferably on a dyno (or find someone with the equipment to road tune it by looking at what the ecu is doing??)
the unichip would cost less - $200 used, but would still need dyno time (and install might be out of my abilities... scared to solder on the motherboard anyway)

I don't know.... I just want that extra ~10+hp and a smoother curve.

the PROECM still might be an option too - cheap! and most out here (CO.) are pleased with it. Even some good head ot head comparo's. The stock ecu seems to pull timing in 3rd gear and up (more load, less timing), and the chip keeps this from happening (I think , that's why it taps the speed sensor wire) all hypothesis there.....


-Chad
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Old 07-30-2003, 11:35 AM   #17
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Kevin and Chad, the ITC/AFC combo is approx the same price as an E-Manage. I'm running one on my RS-T and love it and I haven't even scratched the surface of its capablities yet. The E-Manage main unit alone is a basic AFC w/ knobs to control RPM dependant fuel enrichment/leaning. Add the software (windows based) and now you start getting some powerful tuning options in the form of add-on wiring harnesses. All maps are 16x16 resolution I'll list them below:

Air Flow Correction: MAF/MAP correction just like an S-AFC but with 256 data points! RPM-vs-TPS based map
Additional Injection: Direct control of injector duty cycle, +20% available correct not raw IDC. Can't go over 100% DC. RPM -vs-MAF/MAP voltage OR optional "boost sensor"
Sub-Injector Map: Allows control of 2 sub-injectors, can control pulsewidth or IDC!
Ignition Timing Control: +/- 20 deg timing adjustment. Doesn't set base timing, only alters OE timing. RPM vs MAF/MAP voltage OR optional "boost sensor"

Also has some trick features like "boost cut limiter" which is a voltage clamp for your MAF/MAP and the "anti-engine stall" feature which is like a voltage clamp for idle. Also allows automatic correction for injector upgrades (from experience, trying to correct 420cc injectors was too much for the stock ECU to handle, closed loop takes care of them fine). See, lots of features and not that expensive... especially if you can find one used like I did. PM me or search for E-Manage and my name for more info.
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Old 07-30-2003, 12:30 PM   #18
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Farfrumwork - there are several versions of the Unichip. The WRX one can't be used on the EJ25.

The only reason why the stock ECU board needs to be tinkered with is the rev module. If you're not increasing redline, then you don't need to touch anything but the stock wiring harness.
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Old 07-30-2003, 02:02 PM   #19
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Patrick has Cobb heads and cams. I have a feeling he's itching to increase that rev limiter.
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Old 07-30-2003, 05:34 PM   #20
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Well, I only have the Street/Stage 1 heads and cams, so I don't know how much there would be to gain by bumping the rev limiter up. I guess I hadn't mentioned my mods earlier - in addition to the Cobb Stage 1 heads and Street cams, I have an Injen CAI, a Fidanza aluminum flywheel, a full MRT exhaust (header, cat, cat-back), and an S-AFC.

As for the S-AFC and ITC combo, I guess that's a possiblity, but I'm not sure it will do what I want it to do. There has been discussion on this board about the ECU "learning around" the S-AFC, and based on my experience I think that is true. After getting all of the above (with the exception of the Injen CAI) installed, I bought the S-AFC and took the car to a dyno to tune it. Even with the Cobb stuff on the car, it was running quite rich, and we were able to pick up horsepower across the RPM band (particularly up high in the band) by leaning it out. In the end the S-AFC was set to gradually pull out more and more fuel from about 3500rpm on up, with the top of the range set to something like -24%, and AFR was right around 13.0:1 across the entire RPM band.

Fast forward a month or two and I got the Injen CAI and installed it. Back to the dyno again to see how that affected things. The first disappointment was that the car wasn't making any more power - as a matter of fact, it was a couple HP down on power. Then we looked at the AFR and saw why - with the same S-AFC settings my AFR was now up around 14.5:1, with it peaking as high as 15:1! Needless to say we added fuel back in, and the end result was a 12hp increase.

In all cases I performed ECU resets pretty much immediately before putting the car on the dyno, so I really can't explain how the AFR was that far off. Maybe I'm wrong, but I find it hard to believe a cold air intake would have that big an effect on AFR.

Anyway, long story short, all that makes me wonder just how the S-AFC and ECU are interacting. I really wish I had more time to play with the dyno just to experiment, but at the time I didn't and now I'm out here in Hawaii with no AWD dyno to play on.

Pat
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Old 07-30-2003, 06:59 PM   #21
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Default Yah!

Quote:
Originally posted by Patrick Olsen
Anyway, long story short, all that makes me wonder just how the S-AFC and ECU are interacting. I really wish I had more time to play with the dyno just to experiment, but at the time I didn't and now I'm out here in Hawaii with no AWD dyno to play on.

Pat
*Lean air/fuel ratio with intake* Patrick, don't forget the problems Sport Compact Car had with adding the JC Sports intake to their project 2.5RS. It ran incredibly lean, so much so they lost around 50hp at the top of the rpm range. They had to get an Apexi SAFC to richen the fuel mixture and gained 15hp from the pre-intake install hp.

As far as the SAFC and the ECU learning around it, I remembered reading a lot about that. All it did was make me more confused. What I gathered is that during part throttle, around town driving, the ECU would learn around the SAFC settings but at WOT, it didn't. There's no learning at WOT, just set ECU maps.

I haven't had experience using the SAFC (except on my XT6 but that was horrible and another story in itself....configuration and setup problems galore) but using the Hyper SAFC on my Outback Sport was excellent. Remember, I was using stock fuel injectors, stock pump, basically stock everything engine wise while running the turbo and nitrous. I never had to take the fuel settings over +4 at the top of the rpm range or the engine would bog down and die. Yes, that is wierd and isn't supposed to happen but it was what it was. The stock injectors provided too much fuel according to the Jumptronix gauge. Never had to play with timing, only fuel. ????? Take it for what it's worth but your car is the same year as mine.

The Emanage sounds like something I'd like to go with but I'm ignorant of setting up aftermarket ECUs. I don't know of anyone that knows what they are doing with an Emanage unit so I'd be to chicken to try it. If you know someone that KNOWS what they are doing with this unit whether it be installing it or controlling it, I'd go with it. Otherwise, it would be chancy (<--hey a new word). And this is with any aftermarket ECU. I'd like to learn about them and I have no problem learning but it's just hard finding someone that KNOWS what they are doing. Lots of people talk the talk. BOY, that statement is of no reference to you.
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Old 07-30-2003, 07:39 PM   #22
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IIRC someone has a kit from Vishnu in their RS that cost ~1300. I took a ride, torquey(pinned me to the seat in 2,3,4 gears) but he was tuning it himself.

I think it's cRayzee(?); I'll check.
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Old 07-31-2003, 09:31 AM   #23
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KT, I make no claims to be an expert... I just had the cahones to try it out . Seriously though, as to the ECUs learning around piggybacks what I've learned over the years is this:

Pre 00: Closed loop takes some correction from AFCs, open loop doesn't care.
Post 00: ECU fights piggybacks in closed loop rendering them almost useless, open loop doesn't care. I suspect the 5V O2 (A/f) sensor is allowing much more control over the A/F maps by the factory ECU

I can say that closed loop on my MY99 RS-T is so damn adaptive its actually running my 420cc injectors on its own at idle-3% throttle! I tried to correct with the E-Manage (like I thought I would have to) but the OE ECU runs them fine. Granted, over 3% throttle I'm running HUGE negative correction to keep it from bogging off boost. The S-AFC/ITC combo will work, if you get an S-AFC II you will also get knock correction but your price will be at least as much as an E-Manage and you will be very limited in your resolution. On the flip side, KT is right; there are no tuners who know the E-Manage and GReddy is useless. The software is VERY intuitive though and I have no doubt that any semi-competent tuner w/ a dyno (or a brave soul road-tuning) could get a decent tune with it.

OT, the VTEC setting on the E-Manage looks like it might be very promising for AVCS control(especially if we get it in N/A form)
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Old 08-04-2003, 05:34 PM   #24
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at what point of modding does some form of tuning control become useful? i have the majority of basic bolt ons ..ie cobb intake, borla headers, 2.25 custom unresonated midpipe, scoobysport axleback, gfb pulleys, exedy lw flywheel and sport clutch.

i am not sure if i will ever do cams or heads, and i am pretty doubtfull that i will ever turbo "This" car. would some form of management to control the car at wot be useful? or a waste of time and money. based on what i have been searching for, the products in my price range are greddy emanage or s-afc with itc..

my af gauge will read rich when im driving relatively hard, although it is not a wideband it still gives a basic general idea of what the car is doing, and i do understand that this is a characteristic of subarus, im just not sure if tuning would be right for my situation. any input would be appreciated.
thanks
Pat
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Old 08-05-2003, 09:05 AM   #25
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Proper tuning is what "separates the men from the boys". Anyone can bolt on a bunch of parts, its tuning where you make real performance gains. Even a bone stock car will see the most gain from a proper tune... it might not translate to peak hp/tq numbers but the powerband will be smoother and wider, guaranteed.
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