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Old 08-08-2003, 12:48 PM   #26
Patrick Olsen
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BOY, I need to look into it some more, but the E-Manage does sound pretty promising, and the cost isn't all that bad. Is it something that can be installed pretty unobtrusively - in other words, is it reversible? I've installed an S-AFC myself, which wasn't very hard at all. Only one wire actually gets cut, which I could re-splice together if need be - I like that I can un-install the S-AFC without too much trouble. Is the E-Manage similar in that respect?

Possibly a stupid question... When you talk about a 16x16 fuel map, I'm assuming that's something like load vs RPM? With the proper add-on sensors/harnesses that allow timing control, is that also 16x16? And for both timing and fuel control this is piggybacked onto the stock ECU, so I wouldn't be developing an entirely new map, I would just be adding or subtracting correction factors to the stock map, correct?

I think before I get into something like this I need to get a good O2 sensor. I need to look into a do-it-yourself WB O2 for my Mustang, perhaps I could do one for the Subie, too.

Pat
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Old 08-08-2003, 01:36 PM   #27
BOY
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Pat, you have a pretty good grasp of what the 16x16 maps are... They are 16x16 resolution tables w/ load and RPM axis. All the tuning maps are 16x16 and the clamp "maps" are clamp value (single cell) by RPM. Unfortunately there is no E-Manage to ECU harness (unless you have a JDM Honda). The connections are cut and splice but I can tell you that posi-locks are your friend!! All my E-Manage connections are posi-locked, not soldered, and it takes me less than an hour, at night with a flashlight in my mouth to pull the E-Manage (I swear I didn't make any mistakes when I first installed it ). If you take your time it shouldn't take long at all to install the harnesses and if you screw up the main unit has built in error codes. As for an O2 sensor, if you use your head a narrowband sensor and A/F meter can be fairly useful when used in conjunction with a good EGT gauge. Obviously a wideband is more desireable but not "required".
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Old 08-08-2003, 07:59 PM   #28
dpjef
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Anyone ever heard/used a HKS F-con S ? Probably very expensive, but hey it's HKS !
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Old 08-09-2003, 04:58 AM   #29
Andrew Bacon
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pat L.I.
at what point of modding does some form of tuning control become useful? i have the majority of basic bolt ons ..ie cobb intake, borla headers, 2.25 custom unresonated midpipe, scoobysport axleback, gfb pulleys, exedy lw flywheel and sport clutch.

i am not sure if i will ever do cams or heads, and i am pretty doubtfull that i will ever turbo "This" car. would some form of management to control the car at wot be useful? or a waste of time and money. based on what i have been searching for, the products in my price range are greddy emanage or s-afc with itc..

my af gauge will read rich when im driving relatively hard, although it is not a wideband it still gives a basic general idea of what the car is doing, and i do understand that this is a characteristic of subarus, im just not sure if tuning would be right for my situation. any input would be appreciated.
thanks
Pat
Pat- does your car show rich at WOT? In each gear?
What about at other throttle positions?

I have similar mods as you on my MAP'd '00, but no A/F gauge yet. I have a rich problem as evidenced by soot in the primaries of my Borla. (though plugs look good) I'm considering getting somthing for fuel correction, but buying a controller that only corrects at WOT seems useless to me.

Watching this discussion with great interest! -Andy
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Old 08-13-2003, 01:05 AM   #30
OKRS25
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Listen to Boy about the E-manage I love mine so far. But a few words of advice, the support tool is what I consider the vital tool, no way in hell would I personally try to tune with just the rotary sw/ on the front. Another is more of an observation that I made when I installed mine, I was sent the injector harness and had really ordered a ignition harness, but I used the extra wires to build my own injector harness (What I am getting to is that if you found the connectors at radio shack you could probably make both of them, but in doing this I accidentally didn't get one of my ignition wires hooked up wrong, effectivly firing only 3 cylinders for a few seconds). I orginally bought this for my Turbo project, but haven't got around to finishing it, but have enjoyed tuning my N/A engine with it and have been able to smooth out idle acceleration with it. Its a very useful unit, specially if you turbo and get into the boost sensor variables. (P.S. the boost sensor is the same one that the greddy elec. boost gauge uses, so if you have one of those there is some way to tap into the wires to use its signal.) I miss anything Bill?
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Old 08-21-2003, 07:41 PM   #31
AzNStiImpreza
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hey, i have injen cold air intake, apex n1 cat back exhaust, rallispec cams, uo pulleys, and borla header. my car also runs rich as hell. i have the a/f gauge, and every time i put the car to WOT ( at any rpm) the car went rich. normal driving my car stayed at stoich. i too am thinking about getting an safc to lean out the car at WOT, to me, that is all that matters.
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Old 09-02-2003, 10:18 AM   #32
BOY
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OKRS is right on about the E-Manage's capabilities. AzN, the E-Manage would not only give you the fuel control but also allow you to adjust timing to make the most of what you've got.
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Old 09-02-2003, 11:23 AM   #33
Andrew Bacon
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Quote:
Originally posted by Patrick Olsen
I think before I get into something like this I need to get a good O2 sensor. I need to look into a do-it-yourself WB O2 for my Mustang, perhaps I could do one for the Subie, too.

Pat
WB Lambda systems and kits here...Not too shaby!

www.techedge.com.au
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Old 09-02-2003, 11:31 AM   #34
Andrew Bacon
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Quote:
Originally posted by BOY
OKRS is right on about the E-Manage's capabilities. AzN, the E-Manage would not only give you the fuel control but also allow you to adjust timing to make the most of what you've got.
Hey Bill-

I'm dynoing ~180 CHP with Borla, Random Tech, 2.25" catback to an A'pexi N1 can and DIY CAI/K&N, Pro ECM, Magnecor + Torquemaster plugs.

Any guesses what I might see with e-manage's fuel and timing tweaks? Just a guess? Thanks
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Old 09-03-2003, 01:12 PM   #35
BOY
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Andrew, I know that cobb saw about 10 awhp w/ a unichip on a stock RS. I'd expect with aggressive tuning you should get similar results from the E-Manage and perhaps more due to your mods.
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Old 09-03-2003, 02:05 PM   #36
scoobiejosh
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Just to expand the database a little more. The different ECUís that have been used in Subarus are almost completely different. For most intents they might as well come from two different makes. Here is a simplistic bit of a breakdown of the 2.5 non-turbos, 2.0L turbos, and the 2.5L turbos.

95-98 2.5L N/A ECUís Ė We have not delved too deep, but there are quite a few differences from one to the next

99-up 2.5L N/A ECUís Ė We have gone a bit deeper with these. They are very different from the 98 and older ECUís.

02-03 WRX ECU Ė More advanced than the 2.5L non-turbo cars.

04 WRX ECU Ė Same complexity and technology level, but very different from the 02-03 WRX ECU.

04 2.5L Turbo ECU Ė Might as well be from a different car. It is even more advanced than the standard WRX ECU.

I have used the Unichip on my 01 RS. The gains were around 7-10 h.p./ft/lbs peak, but that is on the MAP based cars. The 99 and older MAF based cars actually have an advantage in that they are able to better compensate for the improvements in efficiency. The MAP based cars are not able to do that since they do not detect the actual amount of air going into the motor like the MAF based cars do. We tested ECU upgrades on a 99 RS and they were much less. I think that it was worth about 2-3 h.p./ft/lbs on that car. And that car even had cams in addition to all the bolt-ons. The older MAF based cars just keep a much better A/F ratio, even when you have done things like heads and cams. The major advantage will be with an aftermarket turbo or to raise the redline. Although with the stock valvetrain on the DOHC heads cannot support much more than stock, especially if the valve springs are old and getting soft.

Cheers,
Josh
COBB Whipping Boy
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Old 09-03-2003, 02:15 PM   #37
BOY
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Josh, long time no talk to... how's the Mormon state treating you? Josh, have you (or any of the other Cobb boys) messed with an E-Manage yet? Currently there are no, that's NO scooby tuners messing with them and you guys of all people should at least dabble with it.
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Old 09-04-2003, 11:28 AM   #38
Revolutions Motorsports
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I have heard good things and bad things about the Venom 400 performance control module. But I will put it to the test at the end of the month on the dyno. I'll post result, because I know everyone will be interested.

Jay
Revs
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Old 09-04-2003, 05:44 PM   #39
scoobiejosh
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SLC is awesome. The dry heat, snowboarding, and a mountain view are great.

None of us here have used the E-Manage. Since we are working on re-programming the factory ECU it is a bit redundant. Piggy-backs are not the most consistent method and take a lot of work to get right. For even simple combinations they also have to be individually tuned with the proper equipment. I had a Unichip on my car at one time and just getting the timing dead on required a Subaru Select monitor to see what the factory ECU was doing, as well as the dyno. The fuel required an A/F ratio meter. It was a fight. Just making the ECU run the timing we want will be much more consistent and not as much of a struggle trying to figure out what it wanted to do. I would finally be able to get the A/F ratios I wanted as well. With the limited amount of change I could do with the Unichip I was never able to reach the A/F ratios I wanted to, mostly on the top end. I do not know how much you can alter the signals on the E-Manage.

I only used the wideband as it is harder with a narrow band unit. They tend to be pretty lights more than anything. I have seen some that were just plain way off and too inconsistent to use for tuning. Narrow bands are only really good to help determine if a catalytic converter is functioning properly. The narrow band A/F ratio meters usually only read a little rich or lean of stoichiometric. And that is just useful for emissions and as a basis for comparison. It is not always ideal for power. I found that out myself.
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Old 09-04-2003, 08:48 PM   #40
Andrew Bacon
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Not all narrow band AF meters are equal- This one has a resolution of 1 milivolt, or 1000 positions. The square one can fit almost anywhere. Their fuel pressure and EGT gauges are fast and accurate too.

http://www.speedshop.org

Of course, using it on the rear O2 sensor after the cat(s) is useless, gotta use a dedicated one before said cat(s)
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Old 09-05-2003, 09:01 AM   #41
BOY
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So Josh... when are the GC/GM AccessECUs going to be available
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Old 10-21-2003, 10:14 PM   #42
jjelsma
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Bump!!

I need more infor about this topic.

Any news from Cobb yet?
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Old 06-12-2005, 12:49 AM   #43
imposter
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Default want to make your auto 97 Legacy GT quicker?

Our 97 auto really seemed like a pig, compaired to our 95 Impreza auto (2.2) when my son installed a turbo 2.2 from a 94 Legacy, he had to go from OBD2 to OBD1, so the impreza TCU wasn't needed anymore. He swapped it out into the Legacy, and what a difference!! shifts were MUCH better, as it held it in gear a little longer. 95 IMpreza's with the 2.2 & auto had a "sport shift" feature, governed I think by the TPS. Anyway, its a easy thing to do, just need to find a TCU from an impreza in a salvage yard.

Scott/Omaha
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Old 06-12-2005, 01:01 PM   #44
Matt Monson
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Wow,
freaking thread from the past, with all the usual suspects presents. But I am not really sure why it was bumped with those comments??? They don't really seem relevant, and are really about transmission, not NA tuning.

Anyways, since the thread is live, I will comment that a lot has changed in 2 years. I think I have managed to show that you can make some significant power using the stock ECU since I am around 220-225hp these days. The stock 2.5RS ECU is pretty adaptive, and my only real issues are fuel trim and a desire for about 500 more rpm. My car runs pig rich from 5000rpm to my 6400rpm fuel cut. As was established in this thread previously, there is power to be made with tuning, but that doesn't preclude doing quite a number of things on the mechanical side without some sort of additional EM...
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Old 06-12-2005, 02:01 PM   #45
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The old thread lives.

Here is the EM I found a SEMA. I have been testing and tuning with our RalliTEK.com PerfectPower. This is the best unit I have seen so far.

-Windows software
-data logging
-Air/fuel Ratio meter built in
-advance and retard timing(not just retard like the others)
-much more....



All the info you will want / need is in the PerfectPower area of www.rallitek.net

-dyno charts
-application guides
-install diagrams

Ask any questions. Real EM is FINALLY available for n/a Subaru.

-Sean S.
www.RalliTEK.com / www.rallitek.net
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Old 06-12-2005, 02:08 PM   #46
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I run in the mid to low 14's with my unichip plugged-in and run 15.2's without unichip. I think the two EM's that are worth the money are perfect power and unichip, both under $400. But if there was a reflash that could be tuned car specific, hands down it would be the best. I'm about to put 11.5 piston in my car so we'll see what the unichip can handle and also see if the perfect power can handle it.
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Old 06-13-2005, 07:17 AM   #47
Patrick Olsen
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Looks like I'll have to do some reading up on the PerfectPower, I've seen it mentioned but haven't really looked into it at all. I invested in an Innovate Tuning LM1 a couple months ago, but haven't gotten around to wiring it into either the Legacy or the Mustang yet - too many damn projects!! I did have an extra O2 sensor bung welded into the MRT header, so it's ready to accept the new sensor, just gotta get off my ass and do it.

Unfortunately, there's no AWD dyno out here in Hawaii to play around on, but there is a dragstrip about 10-15min away from me. I've pretty well established what the car runs in its current condition (15.3xx @ 87.5ish), so if I do the PerfectPower thing I could see if I could duplicate AWDsub's results with his Unichip.

Pat
When I started this thread I was only 30...
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Old 06-13-2005, 10:50 AM   #48
Matt Monson
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I first saw the Perfect Power mentioned in a recent issue of Subie Sport. It sounds like a really good option for us NA guys. I haven't had the time to further explore it. The one liability that still remains with it is a stock redline. It's too bad you can't easily alter the clock on the OBD-II ECU's like you can on an early one. The 2.5l engine we have in Diz's car appreciates the 7000rpm redline...
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Old 06-13-2005, 11:20 AM   #49
Rallitek.com
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I have dyno charts:

http://rallitek.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1674
(Req. Free RalliTEK.net membership to view pics)

All the info you could want in the PerfectPower area of www.rallitek.net

-Sean S.
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Old 06-13-2005, 04:45 PM   #50
Storm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Monson
I first saw the Perfect Power mentioned in a recent issue of Subie Sport. It sounds like a really good option for us NA guys. I haven't had the time to further explore it. The one liability that still remains with it is a stock redline. It's too bad you can't easily alter the clock on the OBD-II ECU's like you can on an early one. The 2.5l engine we have in Diz's car appreciates the 7000rpm redline...
Matt, the pics of that board with the altered clockchip didn't clearly show the PN. I can't crossreference it anywhere. Care to try getting that info again?

I'm set to try the Unichip route myself once I find a decent tuner in the OH area with a 4wdyno


Jay Storm
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