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Old 07-28-2003, 08:46 PM   #1
shirokuma
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Default STi Wing FAQ

STi Wing FAQ

Q. I don't like the STi wing. It's too <insert various opinions>. I'd like to remove it. Should I?

A. Sure. It's your car, your property. You can do anything you like with it, and better yet, you don't really have to ask anybody else if it's ok. My cousin used to throw hatchets at his car door to see if it would stick. I didn't think it was a good idea, but it's his ride.

Q. The Reason is because I think it's just a bling-bling wing that's only there to make it look ricey. There is no way it could have any actual handling benefits because it's the <insert various opinions here>.

A. Wrong. I won't dazzle you with various theories and diagrams. Simply enough, I have driven a STi 8 Spec C RA and Standard back to back around the same track for several laps. On the same day, several other professional drivers, up to and including race drivers, noticed exactly the same thing. The STi with the wing was significantly more stable in high-speed corners than the STi RA without the wing (it had the small WRX turbo wing instead). The STi RA is indeed faster around the course, but that was because it was some 300 odd lbs lighter, especially up top, and it had a better turbo. If the RA had the aero, it would have been faster yet.

Q. I took the wing off my car, and driving fast around corners/twisties, it felt very stable.

A. The answer to this is real easy. You weren't driving very fast. You felt like you were driving fast. You may indeed had been driving at your limits. You were, however, not driving at the car's limits. Don't feel bad, very few of us can. That's why most of us pay to drive cars, instead of being paid to drive a car. Also, you didn't drive the car at it's limits with the wing and then without, on the same day in the twisties.

The STi is not going to go off the road backwards simply because the wing is removed. The difference in handling can be summed up this way: With the wing, you are driving on a dry road. Without the wing, you are driving on a slightly wet road. You have nearly the same traction, but there is an extra 1 or 2% available with the wing than without.

Q. That really doesn't sound like much.

A. In racing, that's the difference between winning and losing.

Q. But I don't race around road courses.

A. Most STi owners won't. However, the STi was designed specifically for road course racing and rally racing. It was not designed to be a boulevard cruiser like the M3. You don't need those big brembo brakes, the heavy duty suspension, the oil cooler and all the other heavy duty components for street driving. They are there for one purpose, and one purpose only. Racing. That may not be the purpose that you bought it for, but I assure you, from the very top of STi down, that was their intention for it.

Q. I still want to remove it!

A. See my first answer! It's OK! It's your car! You are free to paint it STi pink, to put 20" dubs on, to slam it to the ground and put in 200lbs of audio equipment. Just don't expect any track racers to say anything nice about that!

Q. But I've seen the Spec C's and RA's in Japan being tested, and they never have that wing!

A. The RA model (any year) is a stripped, race team ready model. People that will use the car mainly to race are going to strip the interior out, the brakes, the wing and the front bumper, and a whole bunch of other components. STi, being actually concerned about racing, decided to provide a model specifically for that reason - the RA - which is significantly cheaper than the standard STi. There are two versions of the RA. The Real Stripper - 15" wheels, small cheap brakes, no options at all. Then there is the "street" stripper for owners that want to occasionally race, or at least look like it. That ships with the big wheel and brake package, a/c, and other options. It however doesn't ship with the aero aids, those are extra options.

Q. Why doesn't the various Japanese automotive magazine testers use an RA with the wing, if it is faster?

A. The Rules. The option list for the RA is the basis for a multi-page catalog. It's quite big, and filled with every need for outright racing. The same for the Evo RS, the Skyline GT-R, and quite a few other models. For instance, you could order a Skyline GT-R with a full NISMO package from the dealer, and drive off the lot with some 600hp. See, the problem is that once you open Pandora's box, it would get out of control. So the manufacturers stick to the Rules, they only provide set packages to the reporters, and the reporters only compare those. They may bend the rules sometimes, but they don't break them.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
www.apexjapan.com
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Old 07-28-2003, 08:52 PM   #2
Jejunum
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nice! can i take of my wing
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Old 07-28-2003, 09:20 PM   #3
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Q: So are you saying that if you don't drive the car to its limits (or simply don't have the ability too, the wing is little more than decoration for boulevard bashing?
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Old 07-28-2003, 09:29 PM   #4
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Best STi Forum post evAr. I couldn't agee more. Thanks, Paul.
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Old 07-28-2003, 09:32 PM   #5
offset
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Thanks for the write up Paul. I understand your frustration with all the bickering about the wing. And I know it can provide a significant increase in stability. But even though I know you want to see an end to all of the repetitive threads here; I would like to re-phrase what a lot of people are trying to ask when they talk about whether or not it would hurt to take off the wing, because I feel like they are not effectively communicating their question.

A lot of times I think the question is... "Does the wing matter for daily driving (as in commuting to work) even if I drive it a little (or a lot) above what the law allows?"

Quote:
Q. I took the wing off my car, and driving fast around corners/twisties, it felt very stable.

A. The answer to this is real easy. You weren't driving very fast. You felt like you were driving fast. You may indeed had been driving at your limits. You were, however, not driving at the car's limits. Don't feel bad, very few of us can. That's why most of us pay to drive cars, instead of being paid to drive a car. Also, you didn't drive the car at it's limits with the wing and then without, on the same day in the twisties.
I personally have no doubt that taking a sweeper at high speeds on the track you can feel the difference in stability. Well, I would like to see anyone drive the STi to its limits along the same roads that I take to work every day. (On a side note though, I gaurentee that when a deer jumps out from the trees that line the road, those Brembo's won't just be for racing.) So my belief is that anyone asking that question is only asking concerning driving the STi to its 'reasonable' limits in on public streets. I would never drive it that flat out because you will eventaully spin out or worse thanks to rocks or road kill or anything else. But I can drive a lot more spirited and still not need the wing.

I would be a fool if I thought I could drive any track and not have a tremendous disadvantage without the wing. So I have personally made my decision. I am simply buying a second trunk lid (wingless); but still keeping the original deck with the wing. For my typical daily driving, even with a little more wreckless abandon than I should, I do not believe I will miss the wing at all. But if and when I feel like taking it to the track I will swap trunk lids. I would be quick to bet that I could swap my trunk lid faster than anyone could swap on a set of race wheels and tires.

I just have to believe that anyone wanting to take off the wing already has no intentions of pushing the STi to its true limits; and that they are intelligent enough to know what the wing does actually provide. As for anyone who thinks the wing does nothing at all, probably also belives that they can take a hairpin curve on an old country road covered in gravel at night while it is snowing and the sparkomatic radio is blasting; have also been indulging in something else as well. Ok, I got a little carried away there.

Final point is that I don't believe the wing will do much for those people that want to drive hard on public streets; but realize that they are not willing to push it far enough to have any major accidents. And that anyone who takes there STi to the track already realizes the difference and wouldn't bother asking about it. Also, if a person wants to go screw around, drift, or do donuts in a large paved area to show off and have fun, then it doesn't really matter how stable the car is now does it?

offset
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Old 07-28-2003, 09:36 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by metoo
Q: So are you saying that if you don't drive the car to its limits (or simply don't have the ability too, the wing is little more than decoration for boulevard bashing?
A. Correct. However, at this point, the brakes, wheels, rubber, inverted struts, DCCD, lightweight glass, ARB's, and a host of other parts are little more than decoration also. A WRX turbo with some select investment in power-up goodies is a wiser investment.

Cheers,

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Old 07-28-2003, 09:47 PM   #7
shirokuma
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Quote:
Originally posted by offset
A lot of times I think the question is... "Does the wing matter for daily driving (as in commuting to work) even if I drive it a little (or a lot) above what the law allows?"

I personally have no doubt that taking a sweeper at high speeds on the track you can feel the difference in stability. Well, I would like to see anyone drive the STi to its limits along the same roads that I take to work every day. (On a side note though, I gaurentee that when a deer jumps out from the trees that line the road, those Brembo's won't just be for racing.)
The Brembo's actually wouldn't do much for you at this point over a cheaper set of 2-pot floating calipers of roughly the same size. The Brembo's are there because of brake fade when braking frequently and hard - at the track, in other words. A street setup would actually work a bit better at the temperatures that you experience on the street, and possibly would stop sooner than the Brembo's in that environment.

Daily driving - there's no easy answer to that, because The Car and daily driving are at opposite ends of the driving spectrum. My personal answer to it is that I would buy a Honda Civic for daily driving, given that very little performance is involved in commuting for the vast majority of people, thus I would simply be compromising gas mileage, comfort and ease of use simply because I want more power in handling in stop and go traffic... The problem here is that this is roughly equivelant to those race-prepped porsches that are infrequently released (or Ferrari's, M3's, Z06's, etc.). While they are street cars, and you can definitely commute in them, their purpose is for something completely different. The STi's strength and weakness is it's price - it's cheap and it's versatile because of it's 4 doors. Normally, cars in this level are much much more, and are bought by people that have several vehicles and wouldn't think of commuting with it.

People want to remove the wing because they are using it as a primary car (again, their choice). Which is fine, but it wasn't created for that. Thus the question keeps coming up, and thus the FAQ.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
www.apexjapan.com
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Old 07-28-2003, 11:03 PM   #8
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The STi is one of the few cars that actually look good with a big wing. The fact that it is functional and benefical makes it even more beautiful.
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Old 07-29-2003, 03:38 AM   #9
HFTuRbo
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Lightbulb Got wing?

Quote:
the brakes, wheels, rubber, inverted struts, DCCD, lightweight glass, ARB's, and a host of other parts are little more than decoration also. A WRX turbo with some select investment in power-up goodies is a wiser investment
1st... thanks Paul for all of the info. You've spent some time in your "faq" and replies and the data is well received.
For most of us the RA would have been the better choice. We could have then went through the giant catalog and picked the preferred options to make the STi as we wanted it. The only problem is ~ is that the RA wasn't offered. The stock STi in U.S. form is what we have to work with.
I've just gone over the magical 1,000 mile mark and it's a given that this car is a track monster and not the typical daily driver.
However I do not believe that a WRX w/investments is a wiser investment, because you have to trust the installers with everything. Other than the brakes and the light-weight glass, which are decoration, the rest of the mentioned components above are working well for street use. This also includes the wing... I have noticed an extreme improvement in buffeting stability even at legal speeds. Don't lose faith in everyone!
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Old 07-29-2003, 05:18 AM   #10
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great... but where's the DCCD faq???

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Old 07-29-2003, 07:22 AM   #11
offset
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I would be inclined to agree that buying a Civic for a daily driver is a smart option. That is why I am keeping my current Civic for some of that Although I still disagree about the brakes, I don't want to start turning this wing faq into a war over brakes so I will let that go for now. I do apprecite the faq though as it is accurate the way you have presented it and should hopefully help anyone wanting to ask that question.

offset
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Old 07-29-2003, 07:56 AM   #12
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Nice writeup, it clearly answers the questions everyone asks. I also think the best compromise for people who don't like the wing for daily driving is to have a second trunk, and swap trunks for track days.

Have a good one.
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Old 07-29-2003, 08:58 AM   #13
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Oops, Paul already said what I posted.
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Old 07-29-2003, 09:15 AM   #14
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I would never remove the STi wing as the car looks very boring without it. The reqular WRX wing is just plain ugly IMO.

I agree the STi is wasted as a daily driver, that's why I bought a Del Slo. At double the gas mileage (35 vs 18) it's way more economical and makes driving the STi a real treat. The pop-off top is fun but it really feels like a gutless wonder after driving the STi though. A B18C swap may be needed in the near future.
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Old 07-29-2003, 09:36 AM   #15
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While I am undecided on what to do with the wing (I know these wings will end up the tailfins of our generation), and I agree that the STi has more go fast parts than a typical commuter/street cruiser, I would add that much depends on your perspective.

Given that I am coming out of an aging Ford Mustang (inheireted, not my choice), the 'racer' STi feels a world more practicle. It has four doors, climate control, I can reach the controls without leaning out of my seat, and is safer than my last car. True, traffic can be a pain at times, but I feel much more comfortable in the STi.

Course, I can't say I'm above a warm fuzzy feeling when I see another car person checking out the ride I admit that may have had a hand in my purchase.
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Old 07-29-2003, 04:14 PM   #16
JDMSubaru
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Would an STi wing fit on a reg WRX? And would it look good?

I think buying the non STi WRX is quite a good idea. It's a steal at < $23,000 and is pretty damn fast for all intents and purposes in regards to a daily driver...

I'm a proud new owner of an 03 and both very happy and satisfied with my purchase.
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Old 07-29-2003, 04:24 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by JDMSubaru
Would an STi wing fit on a reg WRX? And would it look good?

I think buying the non STi WRX is quite a good idea. It's a steal at < $23,000 and is pretty damn fast for all intents and purposes in regards to a daily driver...

I'm a proud new owner of an 03 and both very happy and satisfied with my purchase.
the STi wing would fit. As for whether it looks good or not, the fact that that is so debatable is the reason for this thread. If you like it, go for it.
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Old 07-29-2003, 07:02 PM   #18
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Default Re: STi Wing FAQ

Quote:
Originally posted by shirokuma
STi Wing FAQ

Q. But I don't race around road courses.

A. Most STi owners won't. However, the STi was designed specifically for road course racing and rally racing.

So, uh, which is it? I can't help but think that the big wing would be more beneficial at lower speeds, ala rally racing. At flat out high speed, the big wing is negative horsepower. (Might be why the Spec C in your example was faster..)

Anyhow, I understand what you're getting at, but is there really a form of racing the STI was built for? It comes with street tires, a non-adjustable suspension, ordinary seatbelts, etc. It's not a race car. It's really easy to make it into one, but I would suggest that right off the lot, it's meant for boulevard cruising as much as an M3..

And most people probably don't need the wing. I agree with your general point: do what you want and be happy. This place has the wierdest set of standards for what people should or shouldn't do I have ever seen.
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Old 07-29-2003, 07:45 PM   #19
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The reason why most "Amerriicans" want to take off the wing because they don't want to be associated with this example:

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Old 07-29-2003, 08:20 PM   #20
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Default Re: Re: STi Wing FAQ

Quote:
Originally posted by thrashvr6
[b]

So, uh, which is it? I can't help but think that the big wing would be more beneficial at lower speeds, ala rally racing. At flat out high speed, the big wing is negative horsepower. (Might be why the Spec C in your example was faster..)B]
The wing is not supposed to help you go faster. It creates downforce by the way the wind flows over it especially at high speeds. Since the car has a rear wheel bias this will give you extra traction which is especially important around turns.
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Old 07-29-2003, 08:30 PM   #21
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Default Re: Re: STi Wing FAQ

Quote:
Originally posted by thrashvr6


So, uh, which is it? I can't help but think that the big wing would be more beneficial at lower speeds, ala rally racing. At flat out high speed, the big wing is negative horsepower. (Might be why the Spec C in your example was faster..)

Anyhow, I understand what you're getting at, but is there really a form of racing the STI was built for? It comes with street tires, a non-adjustable suspension, ordinary seatbelts, etc. It's not a race car. It's really easy to make it into one, but I would suggest that right off the lot, it's meant for boulevard cruising as much as an M3..
As a SCCA stock racer, for instance, it will do plenty of damage. The wing works at lower speeds, I suppose, if you consider 70-150mph lower speeds. That translates well into high-speed corners at road courses. Road course racing doesn't take place at 140+ mph speeds only - most of the time you are doing much less than that due to aforementioned corners. And that's where the extra stability of the aerodynamics shine.

As for seatbelts, it's a common misconception that 4 or 5-point belts should be available/standard on cars like these. However, the standard 3-point is safer until you've installed the proper equipment to mount the 4 or 5-point belts to. Such as a real roll cage. Really. The 3-point doesn't feel as secure as a 4 or 5 point, but it's safer in a crash. A lot safer. And yes, the car has to ship with street rubber - exactly how are you going to legally drive it off the lot then? And if it did ship with the adjustable suspension, exactly how much are the majority of non-racing owners willing to pay for that?

Also, without actual wind tunnel aero data, it's not quite correct to state that the rear wing is negative hp at high speeds. If the STi's general profile was highly aerodynamic, I would agree, but it's not. And around the rear, the stock non-winged WRX lends to a very messy aero flow at high speeds. The rear wing may actually clean up the air flow at the rear - which would give it less drag, not more. It's been discussed better in the Other thread, but the wing isn't pushing the rear down, it's keeping the rear from lifting up.

Every single car, even the McLaren, would need some prep for racing. However, many race series will have rules that basically state you have to use the stock setup for most areas - thus a prepped "stock" STi would romp over many other "stock" prepped cars because of the racing level equipment that it does ship with.

Cheers,

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Old 07-29-2003, 08:43 PM   #22
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I have an 02' WRX, on the highway I was weaving through traffic at above 60mph, as I was changing lane for a pass around another car the tail of my car wiggled. It has nothing to do with uneven surfaces, I felt the car was not as planted at high speed manuvers.

Later on, I installed a STI CF wing and I noticed immediately that driving 80-120mph, changing lanes felt like it was only 50mph. Not as hairy, the car was very planted.

I say most people who do not notice the difference on the road without the wing is most likely not driving fast enough.
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Old 07-29-2003, 09:54 PM   #23
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Thanks again Paul. The voice of reason. I have said it before and I will say it again. The wing virtually defines the car. The fact that it's also functional is an added bonus. I love to see it moving around in my rear window..... Well, err, OK.....the more I drive my STi the more I love the whole car. Subaru really got it right. I thought I would miss my WRX, now I don't think I could ever go back.
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Old 07-30-2003, 12:11 AM   #24
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Old 07-30-2003, 03:56 AM   #25
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i got the sti spoiler on my 02 red wrx
and with jaguar taillights ...people thinks i have red sti

it looks good!!!
the only different thing from the real sti wing is the different colored 3rd brake light. mine's red, so it matches with my red car.
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