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Old 03-28-2001, 08:29 AM   #1
DarkLite
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Post Thoughts on a T3 turbo for a my00 Auto 2.5rs ! HELP!

just wanted to know.. the what u guys thought bout a t3 on an auto 2.5rs.. pros and cons..
compared to a
T28 or a T3/super 60 thanx..
need to know asap !!
DL
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Old 03-28-2001, 08:44 AM   #2
Joe Hogan
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Standard t3t4 works on the MY99RS w/4EAT. There are a number of items to think about depending on the year of the car. The first is engine management and expected boost.
The stock MAP needs to be maintained for the 4EAT TCU to operate correctly.
The MAP system needs to hav ethe signal clamped with a Zener Diode. A simple fix that has been posted on the Iclub already.

If you want a good thorough fabricator/installer, I can hook you up.

But first decide on what you are expecting out of this mod..... 5 psi fun .... 8 psi "oh my god fast" ... or the "empty your wallet and max your CC" 10+psi class

For low boost and fun around town a T28 is fine ... don't expect it to feed your 2.5L above 5k rpm. The T3T4 is a good choice and very flexible up to 10 psi with proper engine management[read TEC II, Haltec or similiar aftermerket ECU]. You can cobble together a bunch of "piggy backs" but to get them to work properly together is a REAL problem at high levels of boost. A separate aftermarket ECU is cheap insurance you don't blow up anything unexpectedly.

Hope this helps ...

Joe Hogan

[This message has been edited by Joe Hogan (edited March 28, 2001).]
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Old 03-28-2001, 09:00 AM   #3
Gambit
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Where can u get T3 or even a t28 turbo? Is it still being made? How much are they?
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Old 03-28-2001, 09:16 AM   #4
DarkLite
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actually i was talkin about a T3 .. not the hyrbid T3/t4 so if u could further elaborate i would appecriate it.. tahnx..

DL
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Old 03-28-2001, 09:29 AM   #5
Joe Hogan
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What are you expecting from a Turbo setup? Also, it is extraordinarily difficult to develop a turbo application. It is best to stick to turbos, T28, T3T4 Hybrid, etc. that have been proven to work on the 2.5L boxer. This avoids a tremendous amount of engineering.

The short answer to your question about a T3 is "no idea on the suitability for this application".

FWIW,

Joe
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Old 03-28-2001, 10:41 AM   #6
mrbell
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Well... Ludespeed uses a T3... I believe the Minnam kit used the T3(could be wrong...)... Personally, I think the T3 is probably one of the better choices. It doesn't spin as fast as the T28, but it also doesn't cut out about 5k like the T28 supposedly does. It also seems that it will spool faster than a T04 or a T3/04, but not provide as much boost. Personally, I don't think you can really go over 10psi w/o some internal modifications to the engine, and transmission. I think I am getting a T3 turbo setup, so I'll let you know if and when I get it running.
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Old 03-28-2001, 11:47 AM   #7
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Minnam uses a t3/t4 setup. Ludespeed is using a T3 setup, and I believe ASR is as well.

From what I understand, the T3 is very well suited to the engine displacement and type of torque, etc. we need.
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Old 03-28-2001, 05:58 PM   #8
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Typically, people just say, "T3", or "T3/T4", etc (4sfed4 is the exception here). But when you actually look for a T3, you find that there are numerous trim options, and that a compressor map for a T3-40, say, looks very different than a T3-60. It almost renders the term "T3" meaningless unless you also specify wheel trim.

Even more confusing, are hybrids such as a T3/T4 or T28. A "T28", as far as I can tell, comes with either a 60- or 62-trim wheel and either a 0.60 or 0.42 A/R! Possibly there are other versions.

Can someone set me straight on this? Is it just understood that when someone says "T3", they actually mean T3-50 or whatever it might be? I.e., is one wheel trim assumed to be the "standard" for each housing? Otherwise, it seems like some info is missing.
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Old 03-28-2001, 07:47 PM   #9
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Dabbler-

You are 100% correct. Just saying, "I have a T3", "Or I have a T3/T4" is meaningless as there are so many options and iterations within each turbo "family". Without knowing the specifics on the turbo (the compressor and turbine wheels, the housing Area to Radius (AR), etc), only general statements can be made.
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Old 03-29-2001, 12:07 AM   #10
skidplatez
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Alright sinse we are getting specific what do you guys think about a T3-60 with a 0.63 exhaust side? I am thinking about using this for a DIY turbo kit.
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Old 03-29-2001, 12:14 AM   #11
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ASR uses the T3/04 hybrid, just for clarity...
I had thought the minnam used a specially built T3 for their specs, but I guess that could mean the T3/T4...
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Old 03-29-2001, 12:14 AM   #12
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maybe the type of torque *you* need, but not the type *I* need. I like my T3/T4 a lot - it's perfect for my 7-9psi of boost. If you're running 5-6, perhaps the T3 is better.

It's kind of a stretch to say that one turbo fits all. Driving style and preferences have a lot to do with it.

-Edwin
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Old 03-29-2001, 12:21 AM   #13
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Fellas, in the turbo Dodge world we use straight T3's on 2.5L 4 cylinder engines all the time. In fact, guys run low 12's on the stock T3 50 trim turbos. With a T3 50 trim (which is a standard turbo) it is possible to develop much more power and torque than I have yet seen a 2.5RS dyno plot duplicate. A T3 can produce over 300 hp and 350+ ft lb on a 2.5L engine.

Also, for edification, you can go to majesticturbo.com and click on "compressor maps". There you will be able to see the flow characteristics of a variety of popular turbos.
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Old 03-29-2001, 12:35 AM   #14
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4sfed - you are absolutely correct about those numbers, but how much boost do people have to run in order to make those numbers? also, there's this small matter of turbo efficiency over a period of time. you might be able to run 12 psi down the 1/4 mile, but that T3 can't keep it up for prolonged periods without running really hot and fast, which is exactly what will happen out on a racetrack or on a long highway boost run.

I'm not saying that the T3 isn't capable of flowing enough to make 300hp. It is. But that's near the edge of its performance envelope. Even if I don't plan to go much further with my T3/T4, I know that it is operating well within its limits and will likely last the lifetime of the car.

In any case, it's kind of pointless debating T3s and T4s. They're both 20-year old turbo technology, which is what makes them cheap and easy to obtain. We should be talking about something more recent like the new GT series. Of course, then we're talking $2000-$3000 just for a turbocharger. But that's what I'd much rather have.

-Edwin
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Old 03-29-2001, 12:51 AM   #15
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Quote:
4sfed - you are absolutely correct about those numbers, but how much boost do people
have to run in order to make those numbers? also, there's this small matter of turbo
efficiency over a period of time. you might be able to run 12 psi down the 1/4 mile, but
that T3 can't keep it up for prolonged periods without running really hot and fast, which is
exactly what will happen out on a racetrack or on a long highway boost run.
More like 20-25 psi! We dont even waste running 12 psi as its hardly worth noticing. At 12 psi, these turbos will run 100,000 miles with ease. Thousands have. Since the Turbo Dodges have 8V heads (most of them anyway), some came from the factory at 12 psi and are well within their maps. So, you can imagine the longevity the factory would design for. Boost is just a resistance to airflow, it is only partially representative of the actual airflow. This can be seen on the compressor maps.

At 20+ psi, they still last an eternity. But, the fact that the Dodges came with a full 50 trim T3 from the factory is extraordinary. Most factory turbo cars (ala the WRX or the VW 1.8T) come with much smaller turbos with limited abilities for doubling power output by merelt adding boost pressure. They simply wont do it. The T3 is old, but it works. Its spools fast and has lots of top end ooomph.

But, your point is well taken in that there are better ways to get there. In my case, I took the stock T3 and converted it to a "pseudo" T3/T4. Im still using the stock T3 compressor and turbine housings, but they have been machined out to accept larger wheels. The compressor side has a TO4B-24 wheel shoehorned in (its basically a Stage 2 upgrade for a Grand National). I left the turbine wheel alone and kept the 0.48 AR turbine housing but clipped the wheel at 12 degrees and had it denubbed. Ill run 25+ psi with this turbo without a worry. The turbo is not going to fail, but the headgasket might!

Some of the new "fancy" turbos do look quite "cool", but the $/hp ratio isnt there right yet. Those $2500 turbos would cost more than 4SFED's entire engine/turbo/transmission/wheels, etc, etc!



[This message has been edited by 4sfed 4 (edited March 28, 2001).]
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Old 03-29-2001, 03:34 AM   #16
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Quote:
Alright sinse we are getting specific what do you guys think about a T3-60 with a 0.63 exhaust side? I am thinking about using this for a DIY turbo kit.
That will work great. I might even use the Super 60 version of that turbo (one step above the 60 trim). You should have great boost response. If you want it to spool a little faster, use the 0.48 AR exhaust side.
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Old 03-29-2001, 11:27 AM   #17
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can the compressor trim and exhaust side be determined with only a part number? I have a TBO382 part number and was wondering if anybody knows which trim that is or how to find out easily.
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