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Old 08-01-2003, 01:09 PM   #1
Mike Wevrick
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Default more about gay marriage

Two questions:

Can anyone give an example of how it could be harmful to society for two people who love each other and want to be commited to each other in a stable lifelong relationship to have legal recognition of that relationship?

Does anyone think that sexual orientation is a conscious choice? (If you think it is, please describe when and how you decided to be straight or gay (or bi).)
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Old 08-01-2003, 01:16 PM   #2
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Default Re: more about gay marriage

Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Wevrick
Two questions:
Does anyone think that sexual orientation is a conscious choice? (If you think it is, please describe when and how you decided to be straight or gay (or bi).)
I'm for it, so I can't comment on your first.

As for the second, I think it actually is a genetic thing - I can't imagine why anyone would CHOOSE to be gay for life and be subject to the pains and ridicules homosexuals face.

I also think that for some people it is a choice (IE: attention whores).

For the truly gay though, I think it's genetic. I once read about a study (years ago..forget the source or date) that indicated homosexual people have something different about the way their bran or stem is - different size or shape or something. Maybe it really is genetic..I think so.
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Old 08-01-2003, 01:30 PM   #3
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I've met people that just GO gay from being straight. They experiment and end up finding something in a same sex relationship that they just couldn't find in a 'regular' one. Gay people are just people. Why make a fuss?
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Old 08-01-2003, 01:30 PM   #4
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I'm for it as well.

But in terms of conscious choice - no, I don't believe people "decide" about their sexual orientation like they decide what to have for lunch. But I do not believe that there is a gene that dictates your sexuality.

I think the process is too complex for us to understand at this point. Sexual orientation is really nothing more than a label for someone's identity, and I think as with many parts of a person's personality, it changes over time. I don't believe in heterosexuals and homosexuals. I've found this view to be extremely unpopular (especially among people of homosexual identity), but that's my gut reaction from my experience with my own sexuality, those that I've come in contact with, and from the literature I've read on the subject.

I think the only thing that is "true" is love and desire. People don't decide who they want to fall in love with, it just happens. People have sex with whomever "does it" for them. I could really care less about the motivation behind it.
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Old 08-01-2003, 01:35 PM   #5
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First, I'm for it. Second, I think it is genetic also. Though there may be some people who "decide" to become gay because it's cool or trendy, I think in reality that you are born with it.

I'm Catholic, and what I find so weird is that in church, they're having these letter writing campaigns (re: recent legalization of it in Canuckistan), and at the end of mass, on the way out they're like, "just come this way and sign.... " Well, I never signed... :shrugs:
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Old 08-01-2003, 01:35 PM   #6
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I'd also like to hear an arguement against homosexuality that isn't grounded in religion or morals, or based on stereotypes or misconceptions. I just don't think there is any logical argument against it.
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Old 08-01-2003, 01:38 PM   #7
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Default Re: more about gay marriage

good answers. My question here:

Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Wevrick

Can anyone give an example of how it could be harmful to society for two people who love each other and want to be commited to each other in a stable lifelong relationship to have legal recognition of that relationship?
was intended to be more along the lines of "Can you think of any harm that allowing gay marriage might cause (even if you are in favor of it)?"
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Old 08-01-2003, 01:39 PM   #8
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I go beyond thinking that homosexuality is genetic, I think even straight people have their preferences based on genetics. I mean we are brainwashed to a degree, but if that really worked perfectly then everyone would think Alizee is hot or everyone would love Funker's ladies...
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Old 08-01-2003, 01:40 PM   #9
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I'm for it....I dont care....










IBSPEEDSHIFTSHOMOPHOBEREMARKS
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Old 08-01-2003, 01:43 PM   #10
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From a capitalists point of view: homosexuals are unable to reproduce, and therefore productivity will decline with the population.

That said, I'm all for gay marriages AND reducing the population.

And it isn't a homosexual gene kind of contradicting? I definitely don't think people choose their sexuality, but being gay sort of precludes passing your genes on...

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Old 08-01-2003, 01:50 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by quynce


And it isn't a homosexual gene kind of contradicting? I definitely don't think people choose their sexuality, but being gay sort of precludes passing your genes on...

josh
Genetics is not that simple. In many cases you have 2 alleles for each gene. If you have 1 abnormal allele you may be a carrier but not actually have the condition. Only if you have 2 abnormal alleles will you have the condition. So an abnormal allele can be passed along by carriers without affecting them. (note: this is a simple example only, most of genetics is more complex)
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Old 08-01-2003, 01:56 PM   #12
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That brings up another point: I think humans are naturally somewhat bisexual, but social pressure forces us to choose one way or the other (even gays often look down on bis)
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Old 08-01-2003, 01:58 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Wevrick
That brings up another point: I think humans are naturally somewhat bisexual, but social pressure forces us to choose one way or the other (even gays often look down on bis)


I dont know Mike.....thats a tough one....

I for one know that If I was gay , I would be more than comfortable being gay...I mean people think I am already...I would just live my life the way I want...but I know for a fact that I am not turned on in any way by men....and its not because of society I feel...but I think thats an interesting theory....
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Old 08-01-2003, 02:09 PM   #14
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good points ... let me rephrase: I think most people are naturally somewhere on a continuum between straight and gay, with very few 100% one way or the other. However, most people who have bisexual leanings tend to suppress them.
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Old 08-01-2003, 02:10 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Wevrick
good points ... let me rephrase: I think most people are naturally somewhere on a continuum between straight and gay, with very few 100% one way or the other. However, most people who have bisexual leanings tend to suppress them.

sure....i could see that...but not in every case of course....some people undulge while others ignore...some may be more prominent while others are repressed....
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Old 08-01-2003, 02:10 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Wevrick


Genetics is not that simple. In many cases you have 2 alleles for each gene. If you have 1 abnormal allele you may be a carrier but not actually have the condition. Only if you have 2 abnormal alleles will you have the condition. So an abnormal allele can be passed along by carriers without affecting them. (note: this is a simple example only, most of genetics is more complex)
Good point, but it seems to me that the 'defective' gene would eventually become extinct, since whenever it showed up ie the person was gay, there would (theoretically) be no breeding.

As far people being inherently somewhat bisexual, I would say that probably holds for females more than males, but that could easily be societal in origin I suppose.

josh
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Old 08-01-2003, 02:12 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by quynce


Good point, but it seems to me that the 'defective' gene would eventually become extinct, since whenever it showed up ie the person was gay, there would (theoretically) be no breeding.

As far people being inherently somewhat bisexual, I would say that probably holds for females more than males, but that could easily be societal in origin I suppose.

josh
'


Makes sense.....I mean the "defective" gene cannot be passed on, therefore it will die off eventually....good point
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Old 08-01-2003, 02:13 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Wevrick
good points ... let me rephrase: I think most people are naturally somewhere on a continuum between straight and gay, with very few 100% one way or the other. However, most people who have bisexual leanings tend to suppress them.
I agree completely. The thing I really dislike is that you'll find a prevailing attitude in gay and lesbians scenes that people really are gay or straight. There's a highly anti-bi attitude. It makes sense, since I think people don't like questioning their sexuality, regardless of whether they're gay or straight. It's much easier to be absolutist about it.
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Old 08-01-2003, 02:13 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by quynce


Good point, but it seems to me that the 'defective' gene would eventually become extinct, since whenever it showed up ie the person was gay, there would (theoretically) be no breeding.


josh
No, because mostly the gene would be passed on by straight people who only had one allele. There are many examples of fatal genetic disorders with this pattern, eg Tay-Sachs
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Old 08-01-2003, 02:18 PM   #20
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There is a highly anti-bi attitude.

As I worked in a largely gay comunity, I kind of decidedthis was because the people who were "out of the closet" had some disdain for those who didn't have the guts to do soemthing more concrete than sit on the sexual fence.


I don't see any harmful reason for same-sex marriages to be allowed. If two people love each other, let em do it. There's nothing terribly dangerous about it.


I think gay is partly a choice and partly genetic. Almost everyone has a little bisexuality in them, but most people were brought up to ignore/not realize/not embrace/run from it. A lot of younger people experiemtn with their sexuality but never wander from their hetero orientation. Those who do, perhaps have a higher genetic liklihood, and were also probably physically and mentally conditioned through childhood and young adulthood to head that direction.
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Old 08-01-2003, 02:36 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Subi Chicky
There is a highly anti-bi attitude.
The irony of that is stunning.
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Old 08-01-2003, 02:38 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Wevrick


The irony of that is stunning.
Yep. Like a pro-choice vegetarian. Or an anti-abortion meat-eater. Life is full of contradiction.
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Old 08-01-2003, 02:47 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Idjiit


Yep. Like a pro-choice vegetarian. Or an anti-abortion meat-eater. Life is full of contradiction.
Sorry, you get a non-sequiter-of-the-day award for that one.
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Old 08-01-2003, 02:50 PM   #24
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This is one of the most amazing OT threads I have ever read. It's reassuring to know that there ARE many people out there who have respect and acceptance of other people, no matter what their sexual preference, nationality, heritage, beliefs, etc...

To me, not only is the debate "against" homosexuals completely baseless, I always say to somebody, "fine - why don't we ban black people from getting married too. They're different and apparently causing harm to you becaus they're somehow different, and somehow you feel uncomfortable because of this."

Some (many) people can be so ignorant sometimes, and honestly, this is not always a place to find the most open-minded people, but damn you all surprised me today. This world ain't such a bad place afterall. I just don't understand why it's written into laws that we will not descriminate on the basis of sex, religion, ethnicity, sexual preference, etc... but somehow homosexual marraige is okay to descriminate against. In fact, let's create a LAW that REMINDS those gays of the rights they DON'T have. Brilliance
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Old 08-01-2003, 03:03 PM   #25
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Default Re: more about gay marriage

Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Wevrick
Two questions:

Can anyone give an example of how it could be harmful to society for two people who love each other and want to be commited to each other in a stable lifelong relationship to have legal recognition of that relationship?
...
Mike, I thought you were against legal recognition of marriage? (i.e. government involvement in marriage) So by default aren't you also against legal recognition of gay marriage?
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