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Old 08-04-2003, 03:28 PM   #1
PaulRex
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Member#: 12454
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Vermont
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10 Toyota Taco
K8 SV650SF

Default Latest incarnation of my daily map

Code:
[START][MAPGROUP1][MAPGROUP]
Map Name:-[Map 2]
Map Comments:-[93 octane  ]
Fuel Map
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      [0]     [-1]     [-1]     [-1]     [-1]     [-1]     [-1]     [-1]     [-1]   [-0.8]   [-0.8]
      [0]   [-1.7]   [-1.7]   [-1.7]   [-1.7]   [-1.7]   [-1.7]   [-1.7]   [-1.7]   [-1.5]   [-1.5]
      [0]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.6]   [-1.6]
      [0]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.6]   [-1.6]
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      [0]   [-1.9]   [-1.9]   [-1.9]   [-1.9]   [-1.9]   [-1.9]   [-1.9]   [-1.9]   [-1.7]   [-1.7]
      [0]   [-1.9]   [-1.9]   [-1.9]   [-1.9]   [-1.9]   [-1.9]   [-1.9]   [-1.9]   [-1.7]   [-1.7]
      [0]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.6]   [-1.6]
      [0]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.6]   [-1.6]
      [0]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.6]   [-1.6]
      [0]   [-1.7]   [-1.7]   [-1.7]   [-1.7]   [-1.7]   [-1.7]   [-1.7]   [-1.7]   [-1.5]   [-1.5]
      [0]   [-1.7]   [-1.7]   [-1.7]   [-1.7]   [-1.7]   [-1.7]   [-1.7]   [-1.7]   [-1.5]   [-1.5]
      [0]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.6]   [-1.6]   [-1.5]
      [0]   [-1.9]   [-1.9]   [-1.9]   [-1.9]   [-1.9]   [-1.9]   [-1.9]   [-1.7]   [-1.7]   [-1.6]
      [0]   [-1.9]   [-1.9]   [-1.9]   [-1.9]   [-1.9]   [-1.9]   [-1.9]   [-1.7]   [-1.7]   [-1.6]
      [0]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.8]   [-1.6]   [-1.6]   [-1.5]
      [0]   [-1.7]   [-1.7]   [-1.7]   [-1.7]   [-1.7]   [-1.7]   [-1.7]   [-1.5]   [-1.5]   [-1.4]
      [0]   [-1.6]   [-1.6]   [-1.6]   [-1.6]   [-1.6]   [-1.6]   [-1.6]   [-1.4]   [-1.4]   [-1.3]
      [0]   [-1.6]   [-1.6]   [-1.6]   [-1.6]   [-1.6]   [-1.6]   [-1.6]   [-1.4]   [-1.4]   [-1.3]
      [0]   [-1.4]   [-1.4]   [-1.4]   [-1.4]   [-1.4]   [-1.4]   [-1.4]   [-1.2]   [-1.2]   [-1.1]
      [0]   [-1.4]   [-1.4]   [-1.4]   [-1.4]   [-1.4]   [-1.4]   [-1.4]   [-1.2]   [-1.2]   [-1.1]
      [0]      [0]      [0]      [0]      [0]      [0]      [0]      [0]      [0]      [0]      [0]
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Timing Map
   [-100]   [-100]   [-100]   [-100]   [-100]   [-100]   [-100]   [-100]   [-100]   [-100]   [-100]
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   [-100]     [30]     [27]     [27]     [27]     [27]     [27]     [27]     [27]     [27]     [27]
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   [-100]   [-100]   [-100]   [-100]   [-100]   [-100]   [-100]   [-100]   [-100]   [-100]   [-100]

Boost Map
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[END][MAPGROUP][09979][EOF]FINISHED                                                                                                                                                        
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Old 08-04-2003, 03:34 PM   #2
MustGoFast
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sorry to be rude but what relevance does this have... if you mean for it to be shared you should also post your constant values and what mods you tuned it for at the very least... I'm just confused why someone would bother to put up a copy of their map?
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Old 08-04-2003, 04:38 PM   #3
SysRq
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Um.... Postwhoring?
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Old 08-04-2003, 06:02 PM   #4
PaulRex
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Quote:
Originally posted by MustGoFast
sorry to be rude but what relevance does this have... if you mean for it to be shared you should also post your constant values and what mods you tuned it for at the very least... I'm just confused why someone would bother to put up a copy of their map?
Well I posted it for people to use, criticize, and compare I assume with their own maps etc. I know alot of people know my mods already but yeah I should post them with a utec map good thinking.

This thread is relevant because this is the engine mgm't and tuning forum, and a utec map pertains to exactly that.

When I first got my utec a month ago I could not find many modified maps for a stock turbo wrx, besides 3 or 4 on wrxhackers.com that did not impress me very much. So, here is my map, which would do more good to other people looking 4 examples than sitting on my laptop.

edit: info.
stock turbo/intercooler/fuel system
16.5psi peak boost, decreasing to 11.5psi by redline
boost gain at 46 and ABC turned out 1.5 turns
93 octane

mods that count: upipe, 2.5inch catless stromung turboback, k&n with resonator mod, samco ic hoses, gfb pullies, jun flywheel

Last edited by PaulRex; 08-04-2003 at 06:19 PM.
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Old 08-04-2003, 08:29 PM   #5
SysRq
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So basically, you leaned out the base stage 2 map and advanced the ignition, especially up top, which you could get away with because you also run lower boost up there.

A couple of questions:

Was the fuel tuning done with a WBO2, EGT, or using the "lean it out till it knocks" approach? Any idea what your resulting A/F ratio is? What are your EGTs? At which point are you starting to taper the boost?

Also, gain settings are irrelevant when your boost control is open loop.
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Old 08-04-2003, 08:38 PM   #6
PaulRex
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So the gain doesn't do anything until I switch? Hmm, i'll have to switch the boost map sometime I've just been reluctant to do so since i got the pressure the way I like it.

EGTs at WOT are peaking at 790-800C in 4th gear by redline.

I have no idea what the a/f ratio is. I mean I have an "idea" but i don't know for sure.

I didn't use the lean it out until it knocks approach because I stopped leaning it out after some good track times with the current map and decided not to press my luck. Fortunatly I never really had many knock events when making the map. I made the boost map first, then fuel, then advanced the ignition. The ignition map was the map where I felt I was tuning it until it knocked then retarding a degree or two. I could probably advance it more in certain areas, but I don't think I will gain any more power by doing so.


I didn't lean out a stg.2 map exactly, I went through a few different maps, and tested them at the track a few times. As for the boost taper, you can see what goes on in this datalog from this other thread http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=401012

Last edited by PaulRex; 08-04-2003 at 08:58 PM.
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Old 08-05-2003, 11:42 AM   #7
Rick Hunter
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Cripes, you're running a lot of timing up top + removing a lot of fuel. Your IDCs are low as well. I didn't think someone could run a map like this on 93 octane sans knock. This map looks more like a map tuned for water injection.
At a certain point EGTs will decrease if you keep advancing the timing. I'm waiting for the WBO2 addon before I tweak my maps for performance just to be safe.
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Old 08-05-2003, 12:50 PM   #8
PaulRex
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rick Hunter
Cripes, you're running a lot of timing up top + removing a lot of fuel. Your IDCs are low as well. I didn't think someone could run a map like this on 93 octane sans knock. This map looks more like a map tuned for water injection.
At a certain point EGTs will decrease if you keep advancing the timing. I'm waiting for the WBO2 addon before I tweak my maps for performance just to be safe.
Yeah, well the ignition map is decieving when you look at it in here, because I really only start running 29 degrees until 6,700rpms to redline a moment later.

NavyBlueSubaru uses water injection, and said that his map has fuel values of -8 in it! He has similar setup to mine but with a 16G! His IDCs with the stock fuel system are like 85% peak. How nuts is that..
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Old 08-05-2003, 03:05 PM   #9
SysRq
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-1 or +1 is not a lot of fuel. Think about it: the UTEC fuel map numbers represent MAF voltage offset expressed in percents.

Let's say that under certain conditions, your MAF sensor outputs 3.0 volts and your corresponding fuel map site is set to +1. It means that modified MAF voltage will be 1% higher which is 3.0 * 1.01 = 3.03V. The UTEC won't even show a difference between MAF and MAF modified, since it dispays voltages up to a single decimal place.

How will it affect your A/F ratio? No way of knowing for sure without access to a WBO2, but I guess not a lot. Maybe you'll go from 10.5:1 to 10.4:1...

BTW: there's a nice graph at http://www.ecutek.com/tuning/induction/ that represents MAF voltage vs airflow, as the ECU sees it...

But what do I know, I'm just a keyboad tuner.
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Old 08-05-2003, 04:23 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by SysRq
-1 or +1 is not a lot of fuel. Think about it: the UTEC fuel map numbers represent MAF voltage offset expressed in percents.

Let's say that under certain conditions, your MAF sensor outputs 3.0 volts and your corresponding fuel map site is set to +1. It means that modified MAF voltage will be 1% higher which is 3.0 * 1.01 = 3.03V. The UTEC won't even show a difference between MAF and MAF modified, since it dispays voltages up to a single decimal place.

How will it affect your A/F ratio? No way of knowing for sure without access to a WBO2, but I guess not a lot. Maybe you'll go from 10.5:1 to 10.4:1...

BTW: there's a nice graph at http://www.ecutek.com/tuning/induction/ that represents MAF voltage vs airflow, as the ECU sees it...

But what do I know, I'm just a keyboad tuner.
Exactly right, when i datalog the most difference I ever see is a .1 change in MAF voltage. Even though my fuel map does not make a large change in the fueling, it definatly makes a difference at the track, I am making more power then when I ran a stg.2 base map IMO. Again this is just my buttdyno impressions and judging by track times, everything I say is trivial because I havn''t been to a dyno. I might only be making more power over the base map because of the advanced timing and slightly higher boost.

Last edited by PaulRex; 08-05-2003 at 04:46 PM.
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Old 08-05-2003, 05:49 PM   #11
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I have another map that is exactly the same as the one above, but with more advanced timing down low, and all the fuel value have been decreased by -1 from the map above.

Havn't had any detonation with it, but I havn't tried using it on a really cool night either I still have some more testing to do with it to check EGTs etc. But it's a good indication that the daily map I use which is posted is plenty safe.
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Old 08-05-2003, 08:21 PM   #12
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I have to say I can't believe you can run that much fuel trim and not suffer a lean AF induced knock - what are the ambient conditions like where you are?

You can still add a couple of degrees of timing in 10 and 20% load columns - it'll help with spool. And when are you gonna change to closed loop boost!
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Old 08-06-2003, 01:28 AM   #13
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Originally posted by digitaltekniq
I have to say I can't believe you can run that much fuel trim and not suffer a lean AF induced knock - what are the ambient conditions like where you are?

You can still add a couple of degrees of timing in 10 and 20% load columns - it'll help with spool. And when are you gonna change to closed loop boost!
Well, the ambient conditions are always changing, the only thing I'm concerned about is very cold weather where I might have to turn the boost down a bit or just run a richer map I guess.

I have been using a map for the last two days with more advanced timing down low compared to the above posted map, and all the fuel values increased by -1. I just highlighted the entire fuel map and decreased everything all at once.

I've done plenty of WOT pulls in everygear(but 5th) to redline ad I havn't had detonation once with the new leaner map I made. EGTs are peaking at 800-815C w/the probe in passenger side between 1&3. If it matters I'm using Denso iridium IK22s, so maybe they help quell some detonation, ok thats a long shot

I will get around to making a CLB map eventually
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Old 08-06-2003, 11:55 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by PaulRex


Yeah, well the ignition map is decieving when you look at it in here, because I really only start running 29 degrees until 6,700rpms to redline a moment later.

NavyBlueSubaru uses water injection, and said that his map has fuel values of -8 in it! He has similar setup to mine but with a 16G! His IDCs with the stock fuel system are like 85% peak. How nuts is that..
Look Here for pictures of the run that i did the other day, making 300hp at the WHEELS...and also a graph of the afr, boost, ign, etc. That should give you an idea of what im doing.

Look Here for some pictures of the water injection setup.

Very nuts indeed...actually as of now im running -8.2. It is finally running afr's in the low 12's. Its nice being able to tune the afr's with the stock o2 sensor....thats something nobody else can do unless they have W.I. Perhaps sometime in the near future i'll post my map. FOr now, just imagine the 70-100% columns, from 4000-7250 filled with "-8.2" and you'll get the picture. PM me if you are interested in a similar WI system for your wrx.

Jeff
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Old 08-06-2003, 02:07 PM   #15
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Quote:
I've done plenty of WOT pulls in everygear(but 5th) to redline ad I havn't had detonation once with the new leaner map I made. EGTs are peaking at 800-815C w/the probe in passenger side between 1&3. If it matters I'm using Denso iridium IK22s, so maybe they help quell some detonation, ok thats a long shot
Hehe, I have IK22's - and they have helped to keep det under control, but I have had a few detonation events - and I am running pretty rich even so...you sure your knock sensor is working?

It's hotter than heck in TX right now, so I guess that is contributing, I just know I can't reduce my fuel trim as much as you have - at least until I have an EGT gauge installed.
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Old 08-06-2003, 03:22 PM   #16
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It's been about 80F with 90% humidity outside lately here if it matters..

Sometimes too much fuel can cause detonation also

Last edited by PaulRex; 08-06-2003 at 03:28 PM.
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Old 08-06-2003, 03:36 PM   #17
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Originally posted by PaulRex
It's been about 80F with 90% humidity outside lately here if it matters..

Sometimes too much fuel can cause detonation also

Whoops must have hit the quote button by accident no matter..

Jeff, what are your EGTs peaking at in 3rd or 4th gear?
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Old 08-06-2003, 03:48 PM   #18
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I have tuned a Stg2 car to ~11:1. EGTs were nice. The fuel trim looked similar to those in your map. Also added quite a bit of timing. Runs GREAT!

IIRC... 239whp on DLL's road dyno.
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Old 08-06-2003, 05:47 PM   #19
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Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....I'm gonna wait to see if the TXIC crew can get AZScoobie or Nathan down for the tuning session before I start removing fuel like that

MP5: If you're reading this - have MZM got their dyno yet? I NEED DYNO TIME WITH A WBO!
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Old 08-06-2003, 09:18 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by PaulRex
Jeff, what are your EGTs peaking at in 3rd or 4th gear?
Um i have no idea...i dont have an EGT probe. I know im running around 12:1 to 12.5:1. Dont need an egt gauge to guess my AFR heheh.....

Cant be too hot, im using water injection.

Jeff
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Old 08-07-2003, 03:21 AM   #21
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Originally posted by NavyBlueSubaru


Um i have no idea...i dont have an EGT probe. I know im running around 12:1 to 12.5:1. Dont need an egt gauge to guess my AFR heheh.....

Cant be too hot, im using water injection.

Jeff
Can i use that as the famous "last words"

Just an update with the new leaner map, I tried it out tonight until near redline in 4th finally, racing a few of my freinds and found detonation waiting for me there..

So after 5,500rpms which was when I was getting the detonation I retarded the timing by 1 degree. And that fixed the problem, until my fuel got below 1/4 of a tank, then I started lighting up my CEL in 4th gear everytime.

I put in $10 of gas and did 3 different pulls on my way home to 115 mph in 4th and no detonation. Crazy huh, I'm going to be sure not to ever do WOT pulls without at least a 1/4 tank of gas from now on.
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Old 08-07-2003, 09:48 AM   #22
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Well egt's drop dramatically using water injection, so im not really worried. The big reason why people get all hung up over them is because when they are running richer than 12:1 they have no idea what their true AFR is so they go based off of their egt temps, where hotter = leaner. I can run 12.5:1 afr and still probably have lower egt's than anybody else running 10.5:1 without water injection. Water pulls out like 5 times the amount of heat that fuel does, so that extra amount of fuel being dumped in to cool the cylinders can be pulled out and replaced with 1/5th as much water, and you'll run just as cool in theory. Actually though im injecting probably a lot more than just that 1/5th. WI can go as much as 4 parts fuel, 1 part water. Just like running another injector shooting water in instead of fuel.

Basically what it boils down to is if i can run WI and safely(READ: NO KNOCK WHATSOEVER) run 12.5:1 afr, then more power to me. You can do the same thing, just get a W.I. kit and when you've had it on the car for like a day or two you'll wonder why you didnt buy/install one months ago.

Jeff
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Old 08-07-2003, 12:06 PM   #23
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That's why PT boats, Spitfires, Mustangs and Lightnings had WI on the supercharged engines - for that extra margin a safety when you suddenly need an additional reliable 500 ponies
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Old 08-07-2003, 07:03 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by digitaltekniq
That's why PT boats, Spitfires, Mustangs and Lightnings had WI on the supercharged engines - for that extra margin a safety when you suddenly need an additional reliable 500 ponies
Yeah your right! I thought that the P-51 Mustang was the only plane to use that
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Old 08-07-2003, 07:29 PM   #25
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The later edition supercharged Merlins in the Spitfires had WI - as they were basically scramble fighters and had to climb to altitude under full power.

Quote:
A further developed supercharger increasing the manifold-pressure to 25 lbs. and the use of 150-octane fuel increased the top speed of a Spitfire Mk. IX by more than 30 mph (50 km/h). In 1944 150-octane fuel was used and water injection was fitted on a Merlin and that gave an output of 2,640 hp at 36 lbs. manifold pressure.
Now that's a HP number to be proud of

Edit: P51's actually moved over to the Merlin given that it was a great high altitude high power engine.
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