Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Friday July 11, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Engine Management & Tuning

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-05-2003, 11:27 AM   #1
lionfish42
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 41016
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: San Francsico
Vehicle:
2004 WRX
Blue

Default Vishnu vs Cobb Shoot Out?

I just got done reading a great Shoot Out thread on the EVO between Shiv (Vishnu) vs. Dave (Works) on their ECU Shoot Out. Where they both show up and the both pick a random car and tune it with their ECUs and see who wins as far as HPs.

Unfortunately the Works guys didn’t show…. there are tons of flames and reasons why. (I think they just were not ready to face Shiv, but that is my humble opinion).

Shiv was nice enough to tune people’s cars for free and really make a great day out of it.

You should visit the thread and read it (there is a link in the first post)


The Works vs. Vishnu Shoot Out Link

Anyway…..

I think it would be great to have a WRX ECU-Reflash Shoot Out between Cobb and Vishnu.

It could be Vishnu’s EcuTek vs. Cobb AccessEcu. Or Vishnu’s Xede vs. Cobb AccessPort. Then have Shiv and Trey tune the exact same cars with their reflash and see who wins.

I think it would draw a big crowd and it wouldn’t really matter who wins (except for bragging rights), but it would be a great marketing tool and really get customers able to meet with both of them.

It would be great if they would get together and do it.

Unlike Dave (at Works), I think Shiv and Trey are standup guys.


Let’s hope they would be willing to do a shoot out
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
lionfish42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2003, 01:54 PM   #2
roybfr
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 14456
Join Date: Jan 2002
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: WDM Iowa
Vehicle:
09 BMW 335i Sedan
69/72/01 Corvettes

Default

Maybe get the TurboXS guys to join in?
roybfr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2003, 04:44 PM   #3
Jaxx
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 177
Join Date: Aug 1999
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Boise,Idaho,USA
Vehicle:
The 93 Imp W/EJ20K
flat black

Default

compairing access-ecu to ecutek is like compairing a craftsman socket to a snap-on socket
they do the same thing

access-port is the elusive socket wrench

Last edited by Jaxx; 08-05-2003 at 04:49 PM.
Jaxx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2003, 05:24 PM   #4
wyowrx
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 34157
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Minot, ND
Vehicle:
00 Toyota MR-S
Black

Default

And the Utec is like a torque wrench!
wyowrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2003, 05:29 PM   #5
Brad B.
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 10292
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Dearborn, MI
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Sedan
Silver

Default

The point is, all reflashes do the same thing. They are playing with the parameters that the Subaru engineers built into the ECU, so all reflashes have the same potential.

The real "debate" comes down to the approach in tuning and what you do with those tools. I think a hammer might be a better analogy because some people are better at using them than others!

The only concern I have is that people should be looking for more than "max HP" in a reflash or ECU. Drivability, torque, powercurve and safety are all concerns. What good is a high HP machine if it's only at one rpm range and the engine blows up after a day or two?
Brad B. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2003, 05:33 PM   #6
lionfish42
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 41016
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: San Francsico
Vehicle:
2004 WRX
Blue

Default What's What and What's Best?

It would be great to have a Dyno Day with Vishnu and Cobb.

They could answer all our questions and have show the differences.

I would really like to see the difference between.

EcuTek
AccessEcu
AccessPort
Xede
Utek

Which is the best for my needs and wallet is something I would love to have Trey or Shiv answer.
lionfish42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2003, 05:54 PM   #7
lionfish42
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 41016
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: San Francsico
Vehicle:
2004 WRX
Blue

Default

Check out Matt Randolph's comparison chart...


His chart shows:

TurboXS "Stage 1"
(TXS UTEC)
$999 = 203.5 wHP

Vishnu "Stage 0"
(Remapped ECU + some mods)
$1195 = 201 wHP


To bad there is not any more information on the list. I would like to see some Cobb stats for a side-by-side comparison.

Here is the link...



Stage Comparison
lionfish42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2003, 08:44 PM   #8
WRallyBlue02
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 20157
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Westerville, OH
Vehicle:
0503 WRX STI & 03Wag
Asp White, Plat Silv Met

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by lionfish42
Check out Matt Randolph's comparison chart...


His chart shows:

TurboXS "Stage 1"
(TXS UTEC)
$999 = 203.5 wHP

Vishnu "Stage 0"
(Remapped ECU + some mods)
$1195 = 201 wHP


To bad there is not any more information on the list. I would like to see some Cobb stats for a side-by-side comparison.

Here is the link...



Stage Comparison
UM That would be......

TurboXS "Stage 1"
(TXS UTEC)
$999 = 203.5 wHP

Vishnu "Stage 0"
(Remapped ECU + some mods)
$1195 = 201 wHP

Cobb Stage 1
(Remapped ECU)
$395+ship=195.1 4whp
WRallyBlue02 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2003, 08:48 PM   #9
Thumper
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 9214
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Alabama
Vehicle:
2002 WRX

Default

Brad B nailed it.
Thumper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2003, 10:45 PM   #10
Equilibrium Tuning
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 26933
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: Fairfield, CA
Vehicle:
2006 STI
CGM

Default

All of those comparissons are irrelevent as the power figures come from different types of dynos. (TXS = dynamax, vishnu = dyno dynamics, cobb = mustang) What we need is a comparisson of all three on the same dyno preferably on the same car.

-- Ed
Equilibrium Tuning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2003, 11:25 PM   #11
Jaxx
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 177
Join Date: Aug 1999
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Boise,Idaho,USA
Vehicle:
The 93 Imp W/EJ20K
flat black

Default

vaus nailed it
might also add:
91 octane vs 93 or 94 ..
Jaxx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2003, 11:43 PM   #12
Equilibrium Tuning
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 26933
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: Fairfield, CA
Vehicle:
2006 STI
CGM

Default

Honestly though, power figures from the different engine management systems will be very close (maybe 5whp diff max). The things to really look at are consistency, smoothness, part throttle operation, off boost operation, general drivability. Also look at adaptability to conditions and of course safety. Again, max power figures will be quite close.

-- Ed
Equilibrium Tuning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-05-2003, 11:59 PM   #13
scott_gunn
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4203
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Palm Harbor, FL
Vehicle:
2009 WRX 5spd hatch
Platinum Silver Metallic

Default

I wouldn't like to see all tuners custom tune the same car and see who can come up with the highest peak hp figure - after all, that may not be the best reflash. All the tuners would be tuning for max hp and bragging rights - not the best driving car.

I'd like to see someone take a few off the shelf reflashes (after all, that's what most people are buying - not a max hp custom tuner) and have them dyno tuned, as well as test driven. Area under the curve means more to me than peak hp.
scott_gunn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2003, 01:23 AM   #14
lionfish42
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 41016
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: San Francsico
Vehicle:
2004 WRX
Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Vaus
All of those comparissons are irrelevent as the power figures come from different types of dynos. (TXS = dynamax, vishnu = dyno dynamics, cobb = mustang) What we need is a comparisson of all three on the same dyno preferably on the same car.

-- Ed

That is why there should be a shoot out between all the ECU / Tuners on the same Dyno.

They would have to compete in wHP, Safety, Torq Hp, Smoothness of the bands, etc.

The winner should be the best in all selected feilds based not on being the best, but being the best price vs. HP (or selected field).

What do you think?

That would leave someone with bragging rights as the highest HP, but if someone else could win if they had a better cost per HP.

That way everyone wins and the customer actually sees what he gets for his dollar.

I am sure many will still go for the highest HP and the overall HP winner, while others will go for the best bang for the buck.
lionfish42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2003, 03:56 PM   #15
Equilibrium Tuning
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 26933
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: Fairfield, CA
Vehicle:
2006 STI
CGM

Default

You really can't judge it that way. First of all, how are you going to judge safety? Its pretty much a rule that more power inherently means less safety. And like I said, technecially there is a threshhold of knock that all the tuners will be shooting for and will likely make very similar numbers. A comparison of off the shelf maps would be much more usefull. Put a vishnu ECU in, dyno a couple times, put a cobb ecu in, make sure it learns all it stuff, then dyno, and throw a UTEC in there and dyno again. Then you'll have a nice comparisson of the three as they come off the shelf/plug and play. Then maybe have a couple people drive each and rate each system in different fields (power off boost, power at high part throttle (some boost), part throttle smoothness, WOT smoothness, WOT consistency...). These would be subjective so you'd need a decently sized sample of drivers to arrive at any conclusions.

This kind of comparisson would be great for everyone but I doubt the tuners would be horribly eager to do something like this in fear that their product will be shown to be inferior. I would be more than happy to set something like this up given the proper resources. I'd be willing to bet that I could find local UTEC and vishnu users who would be willing to donate their ECU's for testing but that still leaves dyno time which is expensive. I would like to run the tests on ATP's AWD dynojet here locally as it would be the most impartial dyno. Maybe start a donation for the comparisson?

-- Ed
Equilibrium Tuning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2003, 04:51 PM   #16
David@Vishnu
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 13004
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: I dont really remember
Vehicle:
2002 Pump Gas Homo

Default

Thats pretty funny. The cobb and ecutek should be in this format the UTEC is by its nature NOT an off the shelf plug and play. The TXS guys get you somewere in the area code and let you tune the rest they never have sent out a UTEC with even a remotely one size fits all map. Thats not the nature of the utec with its fixed timing and biist values. the cobb and ecutek advance itself to the onset of knock thus it learns the UTEC doesnt do that so it needs to be hand tuned to that specific setup. For you guy nicke and diming HP from all the less complex kits out there the UTEC doest promise the majic box turnkey results the others do.
David@Vishnu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2003, 05:25 PM   #17
Equilibrium Tuning
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 26933
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: Fairfield, CA
Vehicle:
2006 STI
CGM

Default

Good point. The UTEC is deffinately a different beast. But then its not really fair to compare a tuned UTEC to an off the shelf map. Maybe we can allow the UTEC to be road tuned but not dyno tuned and use that for comparisson. I think that's the fairest approach. I'll talk to ATP to see what kind of deal I can work out with them for dyno time and try to locate a couple of willing volounteers. I wish I had some of my own money to dump on this but alas I'm a starving college student so that's not an option. Maybe I can work out an entire event with sponsors and such... who knows. I'll give it a shot as this sort of comparisson is long overdue.

-- Ed
Equilibrium Tuning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2003, 05:46 PM   #18
ElusiveWRX
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 41246
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: NJ
Default

maybe sport compact or super street will do this as a future article.
ElusiveWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2003, 06:42 PM   #19
mlambert
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 13831
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: 99 problems but a bitch aint 1
Default

I've met Trey and I havnt met Shiv so by that reasoning I am sure that Trey will win!

What would be really cool is having a two day event where an entire stock EJ20 was layed out on the table in pieces and the guys had to assemble (machine whatever they want), install and then tune.

Trey would still win, but it would be cool!
mlambert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2003, 07:23 PM   #20
lionfish42
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 41016
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: San Francsico
Vehicle:
2004 WRX
Blue

Default Trey Fan?!

I am feel the flame war starting as it did with Shiv and David in their last shoot out.

It would be nice if they tied, but I will reserve any judgement because I have not seen either of them in action.

However, from all the articles, posts, and feedback that I have read, I would say that both Trey and Shiv are in the top of their league and would be happy to have either tune my car.


I would still like to see them in action against one another or even work together on something.


Maybe it would be cool to have Trey use all of Vishnu parts and equipment and have Shiv use all Cobb parts and equipment.

Then give us their feedback on their competors stuff. From what I have read from both I think they are honorable and honest and would give a fair assessment.
lionfish42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2003, 09:05 PM   #21
Brad B.
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 10292
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Dearborn, MI
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Sedan
Silver

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by ElusiveWRX
maybe sport compact or super street will do this as a future article.
Maybe you havn't noticed, but Sport Compact Car only promotes Vishnu when it comes to um... anything Vishnu does! Okay, maybe that's an exaggeration, but when it comes to Project cars, they chose Vishnu for all of their ProjectWRX installments and now their Project EVO. I know it's easier to select Vishnu because they are more "local" compared to Cobb and TurboXS, but I think that's a bad excuse for a national publication that really has made tons of progress in becoming reputible in the last few years. It doesn't hurt that Shiv is a freelance writer for them (but they did state this in their second review of his stuff).

When Cobb did send a car over, they intentionally crashed it into a watertruck!!! hehe j/k

Seriously though, I'm not knocking anything they've said about Vishnu - I think it's all true. Hell, I've even got a few bills worth of Vishnu stuff on my car. I just wish that they'd approach other tuners for the project cars.

Banana!!!
Brad B. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2003, 10:58 PM   #22
roybfr
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 14456
Join Date: Jan 2002
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: WDM Iowa
Vehicle:
09 BMW 335i Sedan
69/72/01 Corvettes

Default

The reason they usually have Vishnu and XS (Not TuboXS) stuff for that matter is that they are both close to the SCC offices, or at least closer then Cobb or TurboXS. XS is very close, and FWIK they are kinda buddy buddy with them.
roybfr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2003, 11:53 AM   #23
SC WRX
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 15258
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Vehicle:
2012 Non-Subaru

Default

I think the way to compare them would be to compare the off-the-shelf AccessECU Stage 1 to the Vishnu Stage Subzero, and the off-the-shelf AccessECU Stage 2 with standard mods (uppipe, turboback) to an mail-order AccessECU with the same mods. Or some other blind comparison where both tune for the same car with the same mods, but don't know that they are going to be compared with each othher.

That would give you a better comparison of how both Trey and Shiv tune for the long term. If you get the two of them to tune the same car at the same time, they might compromise their tuning philosophies in order to please the crowd on that day. They can adjust so many different parameters that on that day, one might decide to compromise long-term reliabilility just a little in order to squeeze out more horsepower, and who would know the difference.
SC WRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2003, 05:33 PM   #24
Equilibrium Tuning
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 26933
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: Fairfield, CA
Vehicle:
2006 STI
CGM

Default

^^^ exactly. I don't feel that a tuning shootout is worth much. What I aim to do is to compare the off-the-shelf maps from both tuners and maybe throw in a road tuned UTEC in the mix too. I talked to George @ ATP today and he's willing to work something out with me and maybe set up a Subaru dyno day for the occasion. Who knows.. maybe one of the magazines will publish the final writeup I'll be posting in the Bay Area forums to try to get people to sign up for the dyno day and to find some volounteres to donate their ECU for a day and also some test drivers. Hopefully this will happen within a month or two. Stay tuned

-- Ed
Equilibrium Tuning is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2003, 08:25 PM   #25
lionfish42
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 41016
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: San Francsico
Vehicle:
2004 WRX
Blue

Default Great Idea

I think inviting Shiv, Trey, and other tuners and designers of ECU after market products would be great. They could answer our questions and talk about the pros and cons of piggy backs vs. reflash.
Also maybe some help for all those self-tuners with the Xede, Delta Dash, and other self-tuning products.

Maybe call it SUBARU ECU DYNO DAY
lionfish42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Impreza vs. Evo shoot out @English town!! michaelstang New England Impreza Club Forum -- NESIC 1 08-22-2006 11:46 PM
Vishnu vs Cobb gts_driver Engine Management & Tuning 31 08-18-2006 07:41 PM
Vishnu vs. COBB vs. ? couchflambeau Engine Management & Tuning 5 12-09-2005 02:18 AM
Cobb vs. Vishnu vs. TurboXS xfactor834 Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain 50 04-30-2002 11:35 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.