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Old 08-11-2003, 11:56 AM   #26
ha-evolution
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I dunno, have you read anything about the CTS-V? It did the Nurburing in 8 minutes xx seconds which is about the same time as the STi Spec-C. This one is supposed to be the real deal and has a six speed manual tranny. Caddilac is in the midst of a serious makeover and it looks like they are having lots of success.


-td (glad to see we are back on topic )
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Old 08-11-2003, 11:59 AM   #27
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Hm.. Lemme correct u a bit:
CTS-V is available ONLY with 6 speed manual tremec transmisison.
It ran Nurburgring track faster than M3, which is probably faster than STi also... and yes, it's full of twisties...
Leather is a plus in my books
Don't know where u find your curves, but most daily races (non racetrack ones) are from kids pulling up to u in Camaros & Mustangs with no twisties to be usually found by traffic lights..
What is edsel?
I'll gonna test drive both cars early next year and I'll have more personal input then. For now, I am just saying it's good to be a consumer these days.. Soo many car companies vying for your hard earning dollars. The more competition the better..



Quote:
Originally posted by VVVV
I would never buy a cadillac because:
I would never buy an automatic. I would never pay for leather seats. I would never want a heavy car on snow. I would never buy a car that couldn't handle well around two lane hairpin turns. I would never buy a car for "image". And most importantly, I would never race in a straight line.

And for all those who keep posting "STi vs. ..." threads - just because a car can get to 60 mph in under 5 seconds, it does not mean it has anything in common with the STi.

Jeez. A cadillac is a closer comparison to an edsel than the STi.
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Old 08-11-2003, 02:30 PM   #28
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Sorry about the manual, I was wrong. However-

The Nurburgring has one hairpin, and at the most about 7 90 degree turns. For the most part it is very fast and very straight. Full of twisties? I don't think so.

If leather is a plus, why are you on an STi website?

I find my curves in the Rocky Mountains five minutes away from my garage, and drive them every chance I get.

When I race, I am on a track. Racing on regular streets is illegal, dangerous, and stupid, especially in a $32k car.

An edsel is a car.

I agree it is a good to be a car consumer these days, now that something other than 400 hp rear wheel drive cars are available to the general consumer. With the S4, STi, and EVO, those of us who find AWD performance to be crucial to our performance car experience finally have a chance to shop around. We have been waiting for decades for these types of cars to be made available to the US. I may be alone in my opinion, but to me 400 hp RWD cars are a dime a dozen. If that is what I wanted in the first place, I wouldn't have spent seven months waiting for my STi. I would have been that guy in the camaro or mustang or M3. But I'm not. I value something about this car that can't be described by 0-60 splits or track times around the Nurburgring. If you don't understand that, then you shouldn't waste your money on an AWD platform performance car. Go buy a camaro, mustang, M3, or cadillac, because if leather is a factor, I guarantee the lack of radio, lack of sound deadening, very minor turbo lag, and small interior size will be unbearable.
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Old 08-11-2003, 03:23 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by VVVV

The Nurburgring has one hairpin, and at the most about 7 90 degree turns. For the most part it is very fast and very straight. Full of twisties? I don't think so.
Uhh, are you talking about the 'real' nurburgring...
http://www.nordschleife.no/

Maybe some confusion between the F1 nurburgring track (http://www.formula1.com/race/circuitmap/26.html) and the actual nurburgring. Usually when talking about 'Nurburgring' one is talking about the big 20Km track.

Some records on the first site above for reference as to how fast the CTS-V is
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Old 08-11-2003, 03:29 PM   #30
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DDub - good point, and yes, from 3 reviews from car magazines CTS-V was indeed tested on nordschleife part of Nurburgring...
And yes, I am pretty sure there are plenty of curves around there...
There is even a lethal, almost 180 turn in there, descending with high speed, stopping on a dime, making a VERY sharp, almost 180 turn and UP hill u go... sounds like fun!!!
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Old 08-11-2003, 05:12 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by amdmaxx
Well, performance category is probably the most mucho thing about cars out there..
then it is about: comfort, car's girl pulling ability, space, features, braking abilities, maintenance costs, etc..
AMDMaxx,

In all seriousness as much as I hate to jump in with the boot to the butt crowd as you're my boy and all, I have to say the STi is no competition on the surface to the CTS-V.

The CTS-V is for the 545, M5, S6, RS6, S4, A8, S60R, GS400, M45, S-Type & S-Type 'R', executive bourgeois sedan crowd.

Based on performance numbers alone though it the STi does appear to be an even better value considering its stock (!) abilities as compared to the LS6 powered CTS for $20K less.
Not to mention less than $2K in mods will get you equal power to the stock LS6. Yes the LS6 can be modded too but at a much greater cost than $2K to make the same gains.

Now as dollar value goes for its class the CTS-V does present an interesting option for those willing to part with $50K MSRP. Keep in mind this is a GM product thus you know after 6 months it'll be avialble via GM credit at low rates and with dealer incentives and 'cashback' programs greatly reducing the real purchase price.

The real comparison to the CTS-V if you want to throw a Subaru prooduct in the mix would be the upcoming '04 Legacy in its sport guise with 2.0L turbo. For the cost of entry that Subie would be an interesting challenge to the CTS-V. It'll have all the same conveiniece appointements (leather, sunroof, etc.) minus active suspension tuning and have just a tad less power and track speed.

But alas anyone looking to buy a Caddie/LS6 is not likely to entertain a non-doemstic or for that matter a Subaru (no cachet, yet).

For all the haters so easy to jump on folks like AMD for posting a thought provoking thread, take it easy. Please.
With little more to talk about other than which replacement tires to buy for the winter or the best place to source mats from, what the heck is wrong with a "STi vs ...." thread. It's fun and sometimes funny, and you never know as their might be people thinking same or similar. Just recall the very popular & hotly debated G35 Coupe threads of not so long ago!

Oh, and 'VVVV' I personally have and do own automatics ('93 Legacy AWD 4EAT). I have paid for many cars with leather interiors ('00 Volvo V40 Wagon automatic), a fabric that I love and covers most of the furniture in my home as well as my wallet. I've had ('69 Pontiac Lemans hardtop) heavy cars to drive in snow and depending on the depth and the tires installed have gotten by fine. I have ('87 Pontiac Grand Prix LJ 350 Diesel) owned cars that couldn't handle well around two lane hairpin turns and I'm still alive.
I have bought several cars taking into account amongst many other factors the 'image' I want or did not want to project ('92 SVX & '04 Honda Pilot). Also I don't mind a straight line race every so often ('98 Trek 'Y-Foil 77' racing bicycle & '04 STi). I would never race the car on public streets but I have & do race my bike on streets often.

Lastly I actually liked the Edsel design! My favorites were the final production run 1960 Edsel Ranger Hartop and Convertible. BTW, the Edsel included various automotive innovations which to this day are still in use including a;"Floating speedometer that glows when a pre-set speed limit is exceeded." The Edsel might actually have provided a precednt toward the idea of the modern and thoroughly 'cool' shift light that comes factory installed in our beloved STi. Well what do you know?!

- Janq

"Let's accept difference -- me from you, you from me, us from them, them from we. Let's understand that what you like, others abhor. You want two-wheel drive. Others want four. Let's leave one another alone." - Warren Brown, The Washington Post
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Old 08-11-2003, 05:15 PM   #32
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^^^^ my main man.. Always on the point..
and thanks for Edsel link..
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Old 08-11-2003, 06:10 PM   #33
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Actually... it might still be cheaper to modify STi.. but GM's LS6 is
really not that much expensive to modify...

https://www.aandacorvette.com/cart/s...p?MainCatID=18

ATi procharger capable of 600whp starting at $5500 which is
quite resonable in term of pricing..??

No, I do not own a vette nor do I know the actual cost of the kit
with installation... but I do know that those prochargers are
popular in the vette crowd..


edit: Sorry.. didn't completely read the post... yes, it will cost
a lot more than $2k....

But how much can be gained by STi with just $2k??
STi + $2k = > 360rwhp??? (whp by stock Z06)
That would be amazing... consider that vishnu's stage 1 is
$2395 but only 300-310 crank hp...


Quote:
Originally posted by Janq

Yes the LS6 can be modded too but at a much greater cost than $2K to make the same gains.
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Old 08-11-2003, 08:51 PM   #34
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$5,500 is a alot of money.
A huge jump from less than $2K.

I'm familair with Procharger. They offer 'kits' for several models of GM & Ford motors. I won't get into the upgrade this upgrade that wars as any engine can be made to make just about any amount of horsepower one might want. All one needs is pockets deep enough or a shiny new Platinum card.

Besides, what are folks going to do with 600 HP anyway?
The real deal is torque, quickness off the line and top gear acceleration. Thats real world power. The rest is just dyno & paper bragging rights, unless of course your into straight line racing.

The upcoming Prodrive pack for the STi is rumored to hit in the neighborhood of 400 CHP & 400 CTq. Thats enough for me!
Vishnu hasn't released a Stage anything yet for the STi. They just released a 'Stage I' for the EVO with mild mods adding 30 HP.
The cost is just over $2K as I recall. But I'm drifting from the original point...

- Janq
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Old 08-11-2003, 10:20 PM   #35
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A couple of points...

I believe the original CTS-V is faster around Nurburgring is based purely on a remark by a test driver who stated after driving the CTS-V around the 'ring that he went faster around the ring in the CTS-V than the M3/M5. I've yet to see any proof that it actually was officially faster.

And that's a moot point - if people check the times for the full 'ring lap, the fastest M3 (or other road BMW) was at 8.11, and it was a modified E36. A BMW Z8 is around 8.15. BMW E46 with BMW test driver - 8.22. So even if the CTS-V *was* faster, that's still up to 15 seconds off the pace of the STi. The fastest M5 was an E39 400hp version, at 8:20.

Not knocking the CTS-V - it sounds like a great deal for the money - but I don't think it's in the same performance ballpark as the STi. Going by the numbers of the 'ring, not much is.

Cheers,

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Old 08-11-2003, 10:43 PM   #36
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Why would you buy the CTS with a Z06 engine, when you could just buy the Z06? If you're dropping that kind of cash, you can afford a beater with 4 doors

-bd
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Old 08-11-2003, 11:18 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by ButtDyno
Why would you buy the CTS with a Z06 engine, when you could just buy the Z06? If you're dropping that kind of cash, you can afford a beater with 4 doors

-bd
It's kind of like The Washington Post; "If you don't get it, you don't get it."

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Old 08-11-2003, 11:31 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by shirokuma


Not knocking the CTS-V - it sounds like a great deal for the money - but I don't think it's in the same performance ballpark as the STi. Going by the numbers of the 'ring, not much is.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
Ring numbers official or unoffical aside, the CTS-V is an interesting entrant but don't forget the CTS-V is a GM product. Yeah its cheaper than the show dogs (BMW & Audi) but keep in mind you most often get what you pay for. Kennel Ration works great for mutts & junk yard dogs but everyone knows Eukanuba is quality.

Oh, and keep in mind the new M series lineup (M3, M5, M6 & M7!) will all come with V8's making minimally 400HP NA!
The boys from Dusseldorf never sleep.

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Old 08-11-2003, 11:47 PM   #39
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Paul, where did u get those numbers?
CTS-V is around 12 minutes on the track mentioned above, which is 10-20 seconds faster than M3.. Some editor saw the caddy engineer take it around the track and they saw that the recorded time was better than any e46 M3 EVER took it.. Let's all wait 2-3 months for hands-on tests, etc.. It looks promising, and yes I do agree that much smaller awd STi will run circles around CTS-V in handling, but overall package I think it's awesome for the price...
And yes, I am STi fan, but I am yet to test drive STi, CTS-V.. I did had a chance to drive e46 m3 a few times..

Quote:
Originally posted by shirokuma
A couple of points...

I believe the original CTS-V is faster around Nurburgring is based purely on a remark by a test driver who stated after driving the CTS-V around the 'ring that he went faster around the ring in the CTS-V than the M3/M5. I've yet to see any proof that it actually was officially faster.

And that's a moot point - if people check the times for the full 'ring lap, the fastest M3 (or other road BMW) was at 8.11, and it was a modified E36. A BMW Z8 is around 8.15. BMW E46 with BMW test driver - 8.22. So even if the CTS-V *was* faster, that's still up to 15 seconds off the pace of the STi. The fastest M5 was an E39 400hp version, at 8:20.

Not knocking the CTS-V - it sounds like a great deal for the money - but I don't think it's in the same performance ballpark as the STi. Going by the numbers of the 'ring, not much is.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
www.apexjapan.com
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Old 08-11-2003, 11:51 PM   #40
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check out www.autospies.com for this week.
they got some nice drawing pix of future BMWs...
M3 - 4.0 V8 - 400hp
M5/M6 - 5.5 v10 - 500+hp..
Those seem to be new standards.. Oh, Caddy threatened to bore out 5.7 to 6.0 and makes cts-V 500 HP for 2006... Read for yourself:
http://www.thecarconnection.com/inde...&sid=173&n=156
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6052

Next M3 gonna be around $53k probably, M5/M6 - start @ 70k, i cant afford ANY of those in the foreseeable future..
CTS-V - MSRP under 50k, maybe even 45k.. Get $3000 GM rebate, 0 apr for 5 years, hassle the dealer to $500 over invoice and we have $400/month monster...

Quote:
Originally posted by Janq


Ring numbers official or unoffical aside, the CTS-V is an interesting entrant but don't forget the CTS-V is a GM product. Yeah its cheaper than the show dogs (BMW & Audi) but keep in mind you most often get what you pay for. Kennel Ration works great for mutts & junk yard dogs but everyone knows Eukanuba is quality.

Oh, and keep in mind the new M series lineup (M3, M5, M6 & M7!) will all come with V8's making minimally 400HP NA!
The boys from Dusseldorf never sleep.

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Old 08-12-2003, 12:22 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by amdmaxx
check out www.autospies.com for this week.
they got some nice drawing pix of future BMWs...
M3 - 4.0 V8 - 400hp
M5/M6 - 5.5 v10 - 500+hp..
Those seem to be new standards.. Oh, Caddy threatened to bore out 5.7 to 6.0 and makes cts-V 500 HP for 2006... Read for yourself:
http://www.thecarconnection.com/inde...&sid=173&n=156
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6052

Next M3 gonna be around $53k probably, M5/M6 - start @ 70k, i cant afford ANY of those in the foreseeable future..
CTS-V - MSRP under 50k, maybe even 45k.. Get $3000 GM rebate, 0 apr for 5 years, hassle the dealer to $500 over invoice and we have $400/month monster...

No doubt GM may _try_ to engage BMW in a horsepower war and or try to buy there way into the market via cut throat pricing, but when all the chips are down and the dealers making his pull...as much as I like GM's pricing for HP I have to say at this point based on history that I would double down on BMW and let it ride.

Basically it sounds like the CTS-V would be nothing more than a Z51 with four doors. Parts & service will be cheap too relative to BMW. Its all moot though as their is now way I'm going to spend $70K on anybodys car nor $50K on a single car. Not now that I have a daughter to look out for who according to my pediatricians latest 'helpful advisory' may need Monte$$ori schooling.

Now if I won the lottery, that would be an entirely different story...

- Janq

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Old 08-12-2003, 02:32 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by amdmaxx
Paul, where did u get those numbers?
From the http://www.nordschleife.no/ listing, which is of the real Nurburgring. Now, if we are talking the "other" track, then that's another can of worms entirely. That's a "proper" race track, all smooth and nice and not very indicative of real roads. The Nurburgring is a very rough, real road with a large amount of high pucker-factor corners that really tests a cars mettle. And on that track, the fastest M3 is not an E46, at least for recorded numbers, but an E36. And the STi Type C RA is waaaay up there on times.

Cheers,

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Old 08-12-2003, 07:43 AM   #43
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Cool, thanks for info...
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Old 08-12-2003, 08:13 AM   #44
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The new car and driver has a nice article on the CTS-V. The article states it laps the track faster than any stock M3 or M5 *ever* has.

Caddy or not, it sounds like a serious contender in the super-performance sedan category.

If I had $50k I'd want one
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Old 08-12-2003, 08:17 AM   #45
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There is NO replacement for displacement, as they say...
I was trying to tell that to Paul (about that article mentioning about CTS-V going through the courses faster than M3)..
I bet tha 5.7 V8 has tons of low end grunt also...
And it is actually gonna be in mid to high 40s... - GM rebate up to $3500, for those who have GM credit cards, 5 % rebate)..
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