Concerns about STI in snow.

[HFTuRbo]

CreoWRX wrote...

I've driven in snow quite a few times, I'm from the Los Angeles/Southern California area where there isn't much around... The winter tires are just added insurance for someone like me who hasn't been through a whole season of snow

Yeah, snow tire for you would be the best choice! It's always snowing in Western PA (except Groundhog's Day) during wintertime, and being from LA it's a "given". In this area just west of Philadelphia we only occasionally get a heavy storm. The D.O.T. does an excelent job of clearing all of the roads each time it snows. The roads are usually just wet and full of chemicals even though there's footloads on lawns and piles up to street lights in mall parking lots. But if you go 15 miles in any direction where there is farmland you'll be driving thru snow.

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[cann]

what are some good rims that clears the brembo and lgiht enough for the snow?

[Mr. Grinch]

Originally posted by Mach

I have has two years experience in the bad winter conditions that North Dakota offers.

Just curious, where abouts in North Dakota did you live? I used to live in Estevan, just north of the border, and used to take trips down to North Dakota quite often, Minot, Bismarck, Grand Forks. For a while I worked at Boundary Dam coal plant which supplies a lot of the power in the area and was also in the forces for a while and got sent down to the base in Minot often.

[Mr. Grinch]

Originally posted by cann
what are some good rims that clears the brembo and lgiht enough for the snow?

From reading this thread and others, it sounds like the factory spare wheel might be a good choice for winter tires.

[cann]

oh no
where i get 4? lol

[HFTuRbo]

From reading this thread and others, it sounds like the factory spare wheel might be a good choice for winter tires.

But where to find snow tires that size?!

[Mr. Grinch]

I haven't seen it myself, all I know is what I've seen posted, two people saying they would use them, maybe they were in jest. I have no idea what the spare tire dimensions are.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=404410

Can anyone post the width / aspect / diam? Is it just a space-saver donut? After searching more, it seems people can't find winter tires in that size, whatever size that is. I'd be looking to see if there is a wider tire that will still fit on the rim and maintain a similar outer diam. You may want to check this thread as well.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ghlight=winter

Some people have posted they might change to WRX brakes for winter. I don't know if that's more cost effective than just getting another set of 17" wheels.

Has anyone asked their dealer dealer what subaru wheels they recommend for Winter on the STi?

Also, I expect www.tirerack.com will have a set of cheap wheels with winter tires for STi. They don't list a set now, I just checked, but I expect they will by Fall. But go ahead and email them or call them; they might have something just not posted on the site.

Also email or call www.discounttiredirect.com. They are interesting because many of their wheels can be had in exact or very close offsets to what you need, requiring only a hub-centric ring. In comparison, Tire Rack most often offers a standard wheel that requires spacers. Some people don't like running on spacers... they can cause issues if not installed correctly.

If someone posts the offset, center bore, width, and bolt pattern for the STi factory wheels, I'd be happy to do some research myself. But I expect the two tire retailers I mentioned will have some answers by Sept / Oct. I know TireRack always makes an effort to try the wheels and tires on the car before they offer a winter package. You can expect the wheels will be $100 to $150 each, and similar price for the winter tires. I know for the M3 I was looking at a complete winter tire package, including spacers and extended bolts, for $1200 USD so I would not expect anything more expensive for STi.

If anyone's spoken with TireRack or Discount Tire Direct already about STi wheels, I probably missed it.

How much does Subaru want for the Factory wheels?

[CreoWRX]

Originally posted by HFTuRbo
CreoWRX wrote...
Yeah, snow tire for you would be the best choice! It's always snowing in Western PA (except Groundhog's Day) during wintertime, and being from LA it's a "given". In this area just west of Philadelphia we only occasionally get a heavy storm. The D.O.T. does an excelent job of clearing all of the roads each time it snows. The roads are usually just wet and full of chemicals even though there's footloads on lawns and piles up to street lights in mall parking lots. But if you go 15 miles in any direction where there is farmland you'll be driving thru snow.

Thanks for the info. I've pretty much lived in Los Angeles for 25 years, so the weather in Erie will be a drastic change. My fiance, who I'm moving with, has lived in Chicago (and regularly visits) so she has a lot more cold weather experience than me. Her Jetta only has all-seasons, but I figure if the snow is bad enough I'll get to use my STi...

-Mike-

[parts]

So instead of talking about IF one should get snow tires or not, why not turn this thread into WHAT is available.

I have done a small ammount of research and it looks like we have the following available in the stock 225/45R17 size-

Dunlop-
Graspic DS-1 (new tire 2003) $?
Winter Sport M2 $140

Bridgestone-
WS-50 (snow biter) $134

Nokian-
Hakkapellitta 2 (studdable) $?


I have NOT found any Hakka NRWs in 17", nor have I found Green Diamonds big enough. I haven't searched out Pirelli yet either.

There are several all season tires people have been suggesting and that is great, but I am looking to compare true winter tires that can be used in all states and Canada (no studs.)

Anyone else have any brands and pricing?


parts

[ToddStratton]

Well, although I agree with Punk about not needing dedicated snow in most of lower areas, living in the mountains I would never go back from using snow tires. I live at 9200ft and encounter snow much more often than Denver, Colorado Springs, etc. They are well worth it commuting up and down a 3000ft pass every day.

For two winters I have used the Blizzak LM-22s in 205/55 R16. They are a great compromise between good dry handling and good snow and ice handling. They are available in 225/45 R17.

On the stock rims, I would try the following severe service rated tires:

H speed rated:
Blizzak LM-22
Dunlop Winter Sport M2
Michelin Pilot Alpin
Nokian WR
Pirelli 210 and 240 Snowsport
Toyo Observe (215/45)

Q rated
Nokian Hakkapeliitta 2 (studded!)
Blizzak WS-50
Michelin Artic Alpin


The spare is 135/70R17, don't know where you can get snow tires in that size. But, if there is a studded tire in that size, I'd do it just to ice race.

Personally, I may try to get a set of the Hakka 2s, but only if they aren't more than the LM-22s.

TRS

[ewt]

Also, there is a really good Toyo available here in Canada, the Observe Garit HT. It is not listed in stock STi size, but I wrote Toyo, and they said that this year it will be.

http://www.toyocanada.com/products/GaritHT.html

I have them on my Prelude and they are very good. Better than the WR in snow/ice, not quite as good in the dry. I would bet, though, that the Nokians will wear better. They use some pretty resilient rubber.

The Snowprox also get the severe weather symbol, and come in 225/45-17. These are not as good on ice, though, as they do not use the Toyo crushed walnut shells (microbit, I think.) I have never tried these, but they remind me of the Dunlop Wintersports.

http://www.toyocanada.com/products/SnowProxS950.html

Eric

[Mr. Grinch]

I just called Kal Tire in Calgary, www.kaltire.com.

They can get Nokian WR in 225/45R17. They can also get the Hakka 2 in that size. The guy mentioned to me that the Hakka 2 is not a "regular" studded tire. It's a soft compound tire that has fewer studs than a regular studded tire.

He said that Nokian is still the only company with a 4 season severe snow rating long life tire not dedicated to winter, but that Yokohama and other companies are experimenting with similar tires too.

Having driven on Yoko GuardX 600 for some time, I can say they have good snow / ice traction, and last a long, long time. But they feel extremely squishy on pavement because they are so soft. They don't feel great on pavement but you get used to it. Another plus is that they feel good on wet pavement.


In comparison, the Nokian Hakkas feel good on ice, snow, and pavement. They really don't feel that squishy like the the Yokos. BUT they spin a lot on wet pavement, no idea why.

Hope this helps. The Nokian WR having the severe weather rating would be my choice if I was a person who didn't want to change the tires every season.

[DistantTea]

I'm a raging snowphobe (I can't remember the actual name for my phobia). When I was 18 I had a 1983 S-10 with racing slicks on it... for some reason I kept going off the road and had two major accidents in that vehicle that year. Then I sold it and got a 1994 Saturn SL1 wearing craptastic firestone tires.. I believe they were called Hockeypuckeros. The car was horrible and I got so bad that I wouldn't go out driving even in flurries.

Then I bought a Mazda 626. It had reasonable all season tires and when my wife could pry my cold sweating hands off the couch and get me to drive in the snow it did ok. I was still phobic, but that car took me down about 3 notches from ape**** nutty.

Then I bought a 2001 Audi S4 avant... this was to cure my phobia once and for all. AWD (torsen even!) traction control, stability control (no sideways movement for me!), extrememly advanced ABS systems... a snow killer if there ever was one. Then the salesman said "By the way here is the winter tire warning for this car." A small brochure that I had to sign that signified that I understood that the car came with high performance summer tires that would kill me if I tried to drive in anything other than light snow. AWD? ABS? TC? SC? Looks like if I were to use those tires my best winter feature would be my heated seats while I waited in a ditch for a tow truck.

So I bought some Blizzak LM-22s and went driving. Where the summer tires would have ditched me instantly the LM-22s had me calm, stable, able to stop and ready for danger. I drove in some seriously screwed up weather that winter including black ice one day and then the next day black ice covered with a foot of snow covered in white ice covered in monkeys... never faltered. My wife's minivan with its dunlop all seasons could NOT be trusted. I had my crutch, I was over my phobia.

I talked with quite a few other audi drivers to find out what they used... it was pretty much a given that the LM-22s or any high performance snow tire made such a drastic difference over all season that the S4 couldn't be driven without safely. Not to say some people who didn't have phobias or lived in deep snow country didn't just buy all seasons... but that kind of ruins the purpose of the car.

For performance you are cheating yourself if you don't have dedicated summer max performance tires and you are risking alot by not going with dedicated winter tires. Its just my opinion...but its shared by alot of people. When I get my STi this fall it will go through its entire breakin period with winter tires on. I'll pay for that insurance of safety.

Plus I need those winter tires for Rallycross...

[infin|ty]

Living in Rochester, NY, we saw alot of snow this past winter. Close to record breaking. I was driving a 01 Mustang V6 w/ stock all-seasons. Now folks, if you ever choose to end your life, simply go rent a Mustang V6 from your local Budget and take a drive in some snow. YOU CAN NOT STOP. My stopping distance going 20MPH must have been 300 feet. Not to mention if you have to slow below 20 on a slight incline, no way you're getting up it.

In short, while a 2WD Mustang is hardly a winter vehicle, I can say it would greatly benefit from snow tires. Where I'm going w/ this? I have no idea. All I know is I will not drive that car in another winter, snow tires or not. I will hopefully have a new WRX/STi to keep me out of trouble.

(And it will have snows)

[Mr. Grinch]

Even the mustang can do OK in winter with snows on it. My buddy has a 96 mustang convertible V6. He drives all winter long with snows on it, no problem. Is it going to be as fun as the WRX in snow? I don't think so, but it gets around with some snows and some sand bags in the trunk for weight over the rear wheels.

I'd driven a lot of older cars FWD and RWD, with all-seasons through snow and never really been scared. That is until I got a 95 Accord, which came with relatively low profile Michelin MXV4 "energy" saving tires from factory. In summer they save fuel by rolling smoothly. In winter they save fuel by getting you absolutely nowhere and forcing you to park it. I thought nothing could possibly be worse. Then I got some Bridgestone RE72 V rated performance tires and was caught in the snow one time. That was the day I realised there actually was something worse than MXV4s in snow.

Anyways, like Distant Tea, I had a phobia about driving this car in the snow / ice, white knuckle all the way. Anyone know what it's like to try driving FWD up an icey hill? Weight transfers to the back wheels, you loose your grip on the front wheels, the drive wheels, and so the front end starts sliding side to side. Ouch!

So I got the Yoko GuardX 600s and the car was transformed. Headed for a parking lot with 2 feet of snow and plowed right through. Tried some ice, no prob. No more fear driving this car on snow / ice. But they were very squishy and spongy on dry pavement. I got 6 seasons out of them, they seem to wear longer than some Blizzaks. When they wore out I got the Nokian Hakka Qs, and I'm quite happy, because they work good on both snow / ice and remain firm on dry pavement. Not bad at all. Next set I hope to get the Hakka Q2 with studs.

Something you'll notice if you drive Winter tires hard on dry road for the first time... they stink like hell when you stop, since they are designed to retain heat and stay flexible at temps far below freezing.

Besides winter tires, another thing you'll want to try if you haven't already is 2nd gear starts. 2nd gear = less torque, and less wheel spin, which equals more grip. This was particularly useful on the Accord and even worked on the M3 with stock tires (in much less snow). You'll find that many if not most automatic transmissions, when shifted into 2nd, will stay in 2nd even when they come to a stop, and proceed to start in 2nd with less power and torque, so that you can reduce wheel spin and get more grip. Likewise if you are driving along and keep loosing traction on ice, you may want to try a higher gear to reduce the torque.

A lot of people with AWD or 4WD may not find this useful because they already have enough grip and systems to reduce slip, but it comes in very handy for 2WD autos.

Best of luck to you this coming winter, hope you get the wrx/sti.

[amdmaxx]

I agree, in Tri-state by me, even major snow is cleared and salted in within hours, plus there are so many cars out there, then then clean the snow for u, by the time morning comes..

Originally posted by PunksWRX
I live in Colorado and frequently drive the mountains in the winter and definitely feel that dedicated snow tires are over kill on a Subaru. I've owned 5 Scoobys and on all 5 all I ever ran was a good all season tire and got through the deep stuff fine. Even my WRX with the stock RE92's did pretty good in 12" of the white stuff. If you live in the far north where snow/ice stays on the road from October to March then maybe I can see dedicated snows on the car. For areas where snow falls and melts off quickly resulting in a lot of dry winter days I personally wouldn't want to run on a dedicated snow tire.

Punk

[filbert]

Originally posted by Mr. Grinch
You'll find that many if not most automatic transmissions, when shifted into 2nd, will stay in 2nd even when they come to a stop, and proceed to start in 2nd with less power and torque, so that you can reduce wheel spin and get more grip

I was told on a normal start (not a lot of gas) that automatics start in 2nd anyway to make the driving smoother...