Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Friday April 25, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Archives > NASIOC Archives > STi Forum Archive

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-10-2003, 04:13 AM   #1
Kenneth2000
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 6375
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Omaha, NE
Vehicle:
2004 STi
Java Black Pearl

Default Serious Octane Booster? Race Gas Alternative?

OK, Since I've bought the Sti, I've been looking for an alternative to mixing my own Xylene / Octane Booster ... it sucks having a chemical lab in the garage all the time.

I found a product, which is a race fuel concentrate. It's available in leaded and unleaded, 32oz cans.

You put 1 32 oz can to 10 gallons of 92 octane, and it will net approximately 102-104 Octane Race Gas.

The manufacturer is very well known all over the US for excellent race fuels, so, hopefully, they know what they are doing.

I've been using it for the last couple of weeks and data logging with Delta Dash. On a 95 degree day, with 100+ degree intake temps, I'm still getting 20-26 degrees of ignition advance at full throttle, all the way through the rpm range.

Check it out ....

http://www.need4speedpower.com
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

Last edited by Kenneth2000; 08-10-2003 at 04:21 AM.
Kenneth2000 is offline  
Old 08-10-2003, 11:02 AM   #2
Soon2Bgreat
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 2258
Join Date: Sep 2000
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Irvington, New York, USA
Vehicle:
1999 gc8 ver7 6mt
GT35R 504.7whp;)

Default

Interesting, i wonder how safe it really is. Have you noticed any power increase on a normal temp day. Has the ecu advanced timing more than normal. Nice setup but kinda expensive to be filling up everytank with it.
Soon2Bgreat is offline  
Old 08-10-2003, 12:04 PM   #3
Kenneth2000
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 6375
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Omaha, NE
Vehicle:
2004 STi
Java Black Pearl

Default

Well, from what Torco had told me, it is as safe as running pump gas.

It is definitely more powerful. Expensive, not really, especially when your used to buying 5 gallon drums of xylene, mixing it up, then putting it in the tank with 92, just to make 100 octane. (drum cost $21.00 at Sherwin Williams)

So, I had the cost of $15 for 10 gallons of 92, then $21 for the Xylene + a bottle of Marvel Mystery Oil $1.50, total was $37.50 for a tank full. (100 Octane)

The other option, 15 gallons of 100 Race Gas at the pump was $57.75.

So, here I have $13.50 for the Concentrate and $22.50 for the 92 octane (15 Gallons)- gives me $36.00 for a full tank of 98+ octane. That's only like a $2.40 a gallon ........... Ok, this is only a bit cheaper than Xylene, but, I don't have to mix the crap all the time and cart around 5 gallon metal drums.... I can even go out of town, and not worry about running less than 95 Octane ... I just bring a few cans with me.

You can mix less of the concentrate with the 92 to net a lower Octane, like, mix 16 oz of it with 10 gallons instead ... to net somewhere aroung 94-95 Octane etc....

To boot, they are just 32 oz cans, I put 2-3 of them in my trunk inside my little parts/tool bag .....

It definitely blows every on the shelf octane booster I've ever tried, and it is definitely cheaper.
Kenneth2000 is offline  
Old 08-10-2003, 01:21 PM   #4
Soon2Bgreat
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 2258
Join Date: Sep 2000
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Irvington, New York, USA
Vehicle:
1999 gc8 ver7 6mt
GT35R 504.7whp;)

Default

I was only thinking it was expensive because i was comparing to using 94, and gta fuel enhancer. About 20 dollars for 240 gallons. So it's expensive compared to that for my use. I would only have added a little to my tank. Good alternative to have though. I'm might try it out.
Soon2Bgreat is offline  
Old 08-10-2003, 01:47 PM   #5
Kenneth2000
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 6375
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Omaha, NE
Vehicle:
2004 STi
Java Black Pearl

Default

I wish we could get 94 octane at the pump here ....

I'd probably just be using that with the GTA and save the Concentrate for race days or something .......

What do you pay for 94 there?
Kenneth2000 is offline  
Old 08-10-2003, 01:54 PM   #6
Soon2Bgreat
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 2258
Join Date: Sep 2000
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Irvington, New York, USA
Vehicle:
1999 gc8 ver7 6mt
GT35R 504.7whp;)

Default

That's what i plan on doing with the turco stuff. Anyway, right about 1.90, but in some places in jersey it can be real low, like 1.7 or 1.6. Pretty sweet.
Soon2Bgreat is offline  
Old 08-10-2003, 03:45 PM   #7
Fair Oaks STI
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 39759
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Fair Oaks, Ca
Vehicle:
2004 WRX STI
Blue w/silver wheels

Default

Back in the ancient old hotrod days, they used to toss mothballs into the tank to increase the octane. That was when mothballs were made from paradichlorobenzine........

No science at all - and no bugs!
Fair Oaks STI is offline  
Old 08-10-2003, 06:49 PM   #8
gator
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 18296
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Francis Creek, WI
Vehicle:
2004 STi
WR Blue

Default

I think in the old days mothballs where made of naptha, the ones made now are paradichlorobenzene
gator is offline  
Old 08-11-2003, 10:25 AM   #9
z&cobb
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12344
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Mountains of Maryland
Vehicle:
2002 2JC
blue

Default Re: Serious Octane Booster? Race Gas Alternative?

Quote:
Originally posted by Kenneth2000
OK, Since I've bought the Sti, I've been looking for an alternative to mixing my own Xylene / Octane Booster ... it sucks having a chemical lab in the garage all the time.

I found a product, which is a race fuel concentrate. It's available in leaded and unleaded, 32oz cans.

You put 1 32 oz can to 10 gallons of 92 octane, and it will net approximately 102-104 Octane Race Gas.

The manufacturer is very well known all over the US for excellent race fuels, so, hopefully, they know what they are doing.

I've been using it for the last couple of weeks and data logging with Delta Dash. On a 95 degree day, with 100+ degree intake temps, I'm still getting 20-26 degrees of ignition advance at full throttle, all the way through the rpm range.

Check it out ....

http://www.need4speedpower.com
I couldn't get the link to work to work. Could you look at the label to see if it contains Tetraethyllead or Methylcyclopentadienyl Manganese Tricarbonyl, sometimes also indicated by TEL or MMT?

The Prestone booster at walmart contains MMT. MMT is the replacement for TEL. It says one bottle can be used for "up to" 20 gallons of fuel. A bottle is 16 fl. oz. I don't know if that equates to the claim of 10 points (one octane number, as in 93 to 94, for example), but MMT is a valid octane booster known to the industry. Generally, the octane increase is proportional to the concentration of MMT, and most effective used with low octane gas. You get more points per unit concentration with lower octane than with higher beginning octane number. Thus it could be useful for emergency use when you running the back roads in West Virgina, or maybe for track use. I don't care for it because it hasn't been proven to me that it is good for 02 sensors or catalytic convertors.

Unfortunately, there may be some bad things about it.

A link about MMT
z&cobb is offline  
Old 08-11-2003, 11:24 AM   #10
z&cobb
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12344
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Mountains of Maryland
Vehicle:
2002 2JC
blue

Default Re: Re: Serious Octane Booster? Race Gas Alternative?

Quote:
Originally posted by z&cobb


I couldn't get the link to work to work. Could you look at the label to see if it contains Tetraethyllead or Methylcyclopentadienyl Manganese Tricarbonyl, sometimes also indicated by TEL or MMT?

The Prestone booster at walmart contains MMT. MMT is the replacement for TEL. It says one bottle can be used for "up to" 20 gallons of fuel. A bottle is 16 fl. oz. I don't know if that equates to the claim of 10 points (one octane number, as in 93 to 94, for example), but MMT is a valid octane booster known to the industry. Generally, the octane increase is proportional to the concentration of MMT, and most effective used with low octane gas. You get more points per unit concentration with lower octane than with higher beginning octane number. Thus it could be useful for emergency use when you running the back roads in West Virgina, or maybe for track use. I don't care for it because it hasn't been proven to me that it is good for 02 sensors or catalytic convertors.

Unfortunately, there may be some bad things about it.

A link about MMT
I got through the race fuel link. Clearly not TEL, except in the one marked leaded. However, I still don't know if MMT is the unleaded one.
z&cobb is offline  
Old 08-11-2003, 10:26 PM   #11
Kenneth2000
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 6375
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Omaha, NE
Vehicle:
2004 STi
Java Black Pearl

Default

The unleaded does have some MMT in it ... they weren't able to tell me how much, but did assure me that it wasn't at levels that would be detrimental to O2 Sensors ..... (kinda like the octane boosters you can buy at car parts stores)

Leaded fuel would be more damaging .....
Kenneth2000 is offline  
Old 08-12-2003, 02:57 AM   #12
SlickmisterN
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 40673
Join Date: Jul 2003
Default Re: Re: Serious Octane Booster? Race Gas Alternative?

Quote:
Originally posted by z&cobb


Thus it could be useful for emergency use when you running the back roads in West Virgina, or maybe for track use.
A link about MMT
The back roads of West Virginia? Didn't you see the movie "Wrong Turn"?
SlickmisterN is offline  
Old 08-12-2003, 09:35 AM   #13
z&cobb
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12344
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Mountains of Maryland
Vehicle:
2002 2JC
blue

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Kenneth2000
The unleaded does have some MMT in it ... they weren't able to tell me how much, but did assure me that it wasn't at levels that would be detrimental to O2 Sensors ..... (kinda like the octane boosters you can buy at car parts stores)

Leaded fuel would be more damaging .....
Let us know your long-term experience with MMT. I have heard that it does no harm more frequently than I see related comments about it like "Hey, my plugs are coated with some red stuff. What is it?"

The points of contention are plugs, sensors, catalysts. With OBD-2, an eventual problem should should show up as a CEL. If you never get a CEL with long-term use, that would be worth reporting back. In MD the emissions test is just a check of the computer, and would be significant if MMT doesn't cause CELs.

Every Walmart could be a source of MMT booster that way especially with the Prestone 0 - 60 brand. This could also help the CA people, since the effect on 91 should be greater than the effect on high octane gasoline.

I get 93 Exxon unleaded from a low-oxygenated rural county "almost West Virginia" and use a hydrocarbon-based booster alone.
z&cobb is offline  
Old 08-12-2003, 12:19 PM   #14
wolverine
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 36571
Join Date: May 2003
Location: NorCal
Vehicle:
2004 WRX STi
Black & gold

Default Re: Serious Octane Booster? Race Gas Alternative?

Quote:
Originally posted by Kenneth2000
You put 1 32 oz can to 10 gallons of 92 octane, and it will net approximately 102-104 Octane Race Gas.
That does sound dubious... How do you know you have 102-104 octane? Here's the math:

To get the desired octane, the equation is:

octane of boost*(volume of boost/total volume) + octane of gas*(volume of gas/total volume) = net octane

So, to have a net octane of 102 for a 10 gallons of 92 octane gas from a 32oz (0.25gal) of boost, one needs the octane of the boost to be... Solving for octane of boost:

Octane of boost = (102 - 92*(10/10.25))/(0.25/10.25) = 502



That does not add up for me!
wolverine is offline  
Old 08-12-2003, 12:43 PM   #15
omahasubaru
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 1594
Join Date: Jun 2000
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Gretna, NE
Vehicle:
1995 WRX
2002 Legacy

Default Re: Re: Serious Octane Booster? Race Gas Alternative?

Quote:
Originally posted by wolverine


That does sound dubious... How do you know you have 102-104 octane? Here's the math:

To get the desired octane, the equation is:

octane of boost*(volume of boost/total volume) + octane of gas*(volume of gas/total volume) = net octane

So, to have a net octane of 102 for a 10 gallons of 92 octane gas from a 32oz (0.25gal) of boost, one needs the octane of the boost to be... Solving for octane of boost:

Octane of boost = (102 - 92*(10/10.25))/(0.25/10.25) = 502



That does not add up for me!
It's a concentrate!
Remember how a small packet of Kool-Aide makes up 2 quarts of juice?
omahasubaru is offline  
Old 08-12-2003, 04:14 PM   #16
Full_Clip
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 22218
Join Date: Jul 2002
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: University of Florida
Default

Wouldn't an alcohol injection setup be easier and cheaper?


Full_Clip forgot that utecs aren't available for STi's yet.
Full_Clip is offline  
Old 08-12-2003, 05:35 PM   #17
cgroppi
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 37002
Join Date: May 2003
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Tempe, AZ
Vehicle:
2004 STi
Silver/Gold

Default Re: Re: Re: Serious Octane Booster? Race Gas Alternative?

Quote:
Originally posted by omahasubaru
It's a concentrate!
Remember how a small packet of Kool-Aide makes up 2 quarts of juice?
Fuel is not kool-aid. It doesn't work like that. Wolverine is right. If the stuff is a "normal" booster like Xylene or Toluene, it would have to be 500 octane, which I think is physically impossible. Whatever the "concentrate" is, it's not a high octane fuel like xylene, toluene or benzene. The stuff must either have some big-juju anti-knock addatives that makes the resulting fuel mix work out to have a AKI of 104 or be snake oil. One of the two. I certainly would not even think of putting this stuff into my car until I saw an explanation that holds water for how it works. The Torco website gives no info at all on how it works or what it does other that saying its a "concentrate" which is useless information. They also make inconsistent claims, saying that it will boost 93 octane unleaded to 107 in the first sentence, and later on down the page they say it will boost 93 octane to 104. So which is it?

I want to see test results, and an explanation of how this stuff works before I trust them as far as I can throw them.
cgroppi is offline  
Old 08-12-2003, 06:51 PM   #18
z&cobb
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12344
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Mountains of Maryland
Vehicle:
2002 2JC
blue

Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Serious Octane Booster? Race Gas Alternative?

Quote:
Originally posted by cgroppi


Fuel is not kool-aid. It doesn't work like that. Wolverine is right. If the stuff is a "normal" booster like Xylene or Toluene, it would have to be 500 octane, which I think is physically impossible. Whatever the "concentrate" is, it's not a high octane fuel like xylene, toluene or benzene. The stuff must either have some big-juju anti-knock addatives that makes the resulting fuel mix work out to have a AKI of 104 or be snake oil. One of the two. I certainly would not even think of putting this stuff into my car until I saw an explanation that holds water for how it works. The Torco website gives no info at all on how it works or what it does other that saying its a "concentrate" which is useless information. They also make inconsistent claims, saying that it will boost 93 octane unleaded to 107 in the first sentence, and later on down the page they say it will boost 93 octane to 104. So which is it?

I want to see test results, and an explanation of how this stuff works before I trust them as far as I can throw them.
z&cobb is offline  
Old 08-12-2003, 06:51 PM   #19
Kenneth2000
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 6375
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Omaha, NE
Vehicle:
2004 STi
Java Black Pearl

Default

I don't think their making inconsistent claims, I think they just have someone who can't type ...... (they need someone to update their page)

They are a fairly small company that has been in business for years.

OK, obviously the 32 oz can of fluid is not 500+ Octane.

I think the important thing is "Burn Control" The stuff transforms a super no-lead to react/act like a race gas, allowing you to be able to run more boost, more ignition advance, etc....

Frankly, I feel much safer using this stuff than the over ther counter NOS/104+/ whatever stuff .....from wal-mart or advance auto parts

Never have I seen one of those companies actually back anything up with a Dyno chart either.

Alcohol injection? I've looked into it .... kind of a pain in the ass .....

I would rather go to a pump, slap in the concentrate, then pump in the crappy 92 octane that we get here .... boom ... done deal.

I don't have to monitor a damn thing, don't have to worry about my alcohol running out ... none of that stuff ....

They were also planning another series of dyno tests .... hopefully those will be available soon .....
Kenneth2000 is offline  
Old 08-12-2003, 07:15 PM   #20
z&cobb
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12344
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Mountains of Maryland
Vehicle:
2002 2JC
blue

Default

MMT plays in the same field with the old tried and true tetraethyllead, in terms of chemistry, and not the usual BTEX or alchohol approach to increase the octane number. TEL is more effective than MMT on a parts per million parts of gasoline basis. Something to do with free radicals or radical-ions.

A Google search would lead to explanation of the octane increasing effects of the organometal additives.

There are other mechanisms as well, like the GTA viscoelastic effects one.

Excluding partially burned oxidized fuels (oxygenates like methanol)

Three tiered high energy density octane-increasing approachas are:

aromatics (at the percents level)
organometals (at the ppm level)
High molecular weight polyisobutylene (at the ppm level)

Things get complicated when you delve into them.

Last edited by z&cobb; 08-12-2003 at 07:22 PM.
z&cobb is offline  
Old 08-13-2003, 06:48 PM   #21
Kenneth2000
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 6375
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Omaha, NE
Vehicle:
2004 STi
Java Black Pearl

Default

another thing to notate ....

It is a fact, if you take 4gm's of lead, and add it to 1 gallon of 93 octane, that you will net 110 octane ...

so, with that in mind, there are surely other products/chemicals, etc.. that could also boost octane in a similar manner ....
Kenneth2000 is offline  
Old 08-15-2003, 11:47 AM   #22
omahasubaru
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 1594
Join Date: Jun 2000
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Gretna, NE
Vehicle:
1995 WRX
2002 Legacy

Default

Kenneth2000,

I would like to get with you & see some of your datalogs... as well as there is another STi guy in town with no Det or Ping problems & still another STi guy (all in our club) that is having Det/Ping problems... I think more datalogs of each car would net a very nice comparison.

Let me know if you want to try & set something up. I don't know what I'd do with 3 STi's all at the same place time (Black, Silver, Blue). We just need a White one in the club & we're covered.
omahasubaru is offline  
Old 09-09-2003, 10:56 PM   #23
Kenneth2000
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 6375
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Omaha, NE
Vehicle:
2004 STi
Java Black Pearl

Default

Samples have been sent to a reputable subaru tuner-aftermarket parts manufacturer. They'll test the stuff out, and see what they find.

I'll update here, to let everyone know what the results were.

Going on 3,200 miles running the concentrate like clockwork, no problems, no cels either, just plenty of ignition advance!

For those looking for the more natural, total hydrocarbon approach http://www.need4speedpower.com also sells the GTA product.

I'll keep you all posted.
Kenneth2000 is offline  
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Free 5 gallons of 114 octane leaded race gas Rageous SCIC Private Classifieds 12 03-19-2009 11:35 PM
For Free! Premixed 110 Octane Leaded Race Gas Rancid TXIC Private Classifieds 0 03-05-2007 12:35 PM
nos octane booster racing formula malibuda General Community 7 03-23-2006 06:24 PM
(norcal) fs: 100 octane vp race gas tamashi523 Private 'For Sale' Classifieds 0 02-19-2006 12:57 PM
Rally Knight update: 500+ lb/ft of torque on 114 octane leaded race gas! Digital_Boy Normally Aspirated Powertrain 8 01-23-2001 08:01 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.