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Old 08-13-2003, 08:12 AM   #1
Force[FED]
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Default UTEC: Closed loop boost maps

Hey gang. A few weeks ago I changed over to closed loop boost control on my Stage 4+TMIC setup. I was not really sure what type of values to use, and what type of "scheme" to go by. I found a closed loop map made by TurboXS that had something like 210 @ 60%, 230 @ 70%, 250 @ 80%, and 260 @ 90 and 100% columns.

I am not asking for anyone to give me their exact numbers, because I realize they are totally irrelevant except for each car. But I am wondering if this is really the best way to model my closed loop boost maps at (incrementing the values as you move up a column)?

I have mine this way now, but I think it could be better. Of course wide open throttle seems fine (getting the desired 16psi that I was tuning for), but anything below full throttle seems a little sluggish. Hard to explain really.

Anyone care to share their closed loop map, so I can see the trends of how people are tuning it?

Thanks,

Kev
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Old 08-14-2003, 01:01 AM   #2
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I have mine set up the same way...20 more for each column. Not sure if this is the best way though. I was thinking it might be better to enter high #'s in the lower % columns that way it will make it spool quicker. I haven't had time to play around with it since I don't have a latop yet...still borrowing a friend's.

bump for someone else who knows.
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Old 08-14-2003, 07:39 AM   #3
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Default Closed loop

I am trying out the closed loop. I am at 5000 feet so I had to do some adjusting. I have the ABC out two turns and then in my boost I have 410 in 90% and 100% then I have it going down to 390 in 80% 370 in 70% 350 in 50%. I also had to retard my timing since I can only get 91 pump gas. If you want my map email @ c.herring@comcast.net.

It really zips through first and second and pulls hard too!!!
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Old 08-15-2003, 10:26 AM   #4
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man, you guys have guts, especially doing guess work up 5000ft!

im sticking to open loop for now.
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Old 08-15-2003, 12:52 PM   #5
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So it seems like most people stick to the same "trend" as far as how they set their closed loop boost.

kenchan, what's so scary about closed loop mode? If anything, I think it's EASIER to tune the boost this way. Instead of guess what open loop percentage = what boost, after some time you will know exactly what closed loop value = specific boost. So if 300 gives you 15psi, you can adjust accordingly.

I think open-loop is a PITA to tune.

Kev
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Old 08-15-2003, 01:12 PM   #6
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Quote:
I think open-loop is a PITA to tune.
Werd
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Old 08-15-2003, 01:14 PM   #7
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I agree with force[fed] on the PITA on the open loop. It so much easier to tune in cloose loop.
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Old 08-18-2003, 05:34 PM   #8
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Closed loop is much more consistent. As long as you start low and work up its not that scary.
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Old 08-18-2003, 08:59 PM   #9
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mixup52,
Quote:
had to retard my timing since I can only get 91 pump gas
At 5000 ft 91 is fine, tune the same as 93 at sea level. You'll also find that pulling fuel at altitude will also help spoolup (lower rpm) and fuel waste (higher rpm). I know of others that have also advanced timing, but I'm not that brave yet to push into possible knock situations.

FYI I'm at 370 on my car at 2.5 turns, which gives me 13.2 absolute PSI and 16.5 on the guage at 6000 ft. When to closed loop finally a few weeks ago, and now plan on staying that way.
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Old 08-18-2003, 09:09 PM   #10
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Anyone have any good reading on open vs closed loop for a UTEC N00b? TIA.
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Old 08-18-2003, 10:28 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by 03WRXMA
Anyone have any good reading on open vs closed loop for a UTEC N00b? TIA.
Your best bet is to search this site and wrxhackers for key words like "closed loop" and "clb".
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Old 08-19-2003, 08:29 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by 03WRXMA
Anyone have any good reading on open vs closed loop for a UTEC N00b? TIA.
Try Turboxs, they might have one if you email them directly.

Chris
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Old 08-19-2003, 08:30 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ski Man
mixup52,

At 5000 ft 91 is fine, tune the same as 93 at sea level. You'll also find that pulling fuel at altitude will also help spoolup (lower rpm) and fuel waste (higher rpm). I know of others that have also advanced timing, but I'm not that brave yet to push into possible knock situations.

FYI I'm at 370 on my car at 2.5 turns, which gives me 13.2 absolute PSI and 16.5 on the guage at 6000 ft. When to closed loop finally a few weeks ago, and now plan on staying that way.
Hey Thanks for the tip on that. Well I thought that I might have had knock but now I think I might be mis firing, no way to tell for sure with out Wideband. Phil at Turboxs told me to go with the FMIC Map, but said I might have to lean out the fuel. I haven't done that yet. So that is way I think I might be miss firing. Could you send me your fuel map? Just want to compair it to the one I am running. Are you running any different plugs? Colder ones?


Chris
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Old 08-19-2003, 01:46 PM   #14
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The supersecret wideband tuning unit for the UTEC is supposed to be coming out soon. Get that before you lean yourself out.

Also, 91 octane is crap for serious performance at any altitude. You can get much more power safely out of better gas at any altitude as you can run more boost/timing which equals more power.
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Old 08-19-2003, 08:18 PM   #15
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Yes, 91 is not as good as 93, and 93 not as good as 95 etc.. Does not change the fact however that 91@5000 ft exhibites the same antiknock properties as 93@sealevel. I could probaby even run 87@12,000 ft with my same map.

At altitude you just lose power versus sealevel for any given car.

Mixup52,
I'll send you my latest map to compare when I can get my wife off our laptop. Stock plugs, TurboXS turboback, Autospeed uppipe, hacked silencer.

Can't wait for the UTEC super secret feature to be released!
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Old 08-20-2003, 08:24 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ski Man
Yes, 91 is not as good as 93, and 93 not as good as 95 etc.. Does not change the fact however that 91@5000 ft exhibites the same antiknock properties as 93@sealevel. I could probaby even run 87@12,000 ft with my same map.

At altitude you just lose power versus sealevel for any given car.

Mixup52,
I'll send you my latest map to compare when I can get my wife off our laptop. Stock plugs, TurboXS turboback, Autospeed uppipe, hacked silencer.

Can't wait for the UTEC super secret feature to be released!
Cool Thanks!!

chris
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Old 08-20-2003, 11:11 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ski Man
Yes, 91 is not as good as 93, and 93 not as good as 95 etc.. Does not change the fact however that 91@5000 ft exhibites the same antiknock properties as 93@sealevel. I could probaby even run 87@12,000 ft with my same map.

At altitude you just lose power versus sealevel for any given car.

Mixup52,
I'll send you my latest map to compare when I can get my wife off our laptop. Stock plugs, TurboXS turboback, Autospeed uppipe, hacked silencer.

Can't wait for the UTEC super secret feature to be released!
Altitude does not give you any anti-knock properties. The difference in the lower pressure of the atmosphere. To make the same manifold pressure at altitude that you make at sealevel you must generate more boost over the relative atmospheric pressure. This will actually give you higher EGTs and lead to the need for BETTER gas. The big limitiation of the WRX power at altitude is the stock turbo. If you go over about 15.5 PSI MAP at 5000ft you are out of your turbos efficency range. 15.5 PSI MAP pressure will read about 17.9PSI on your boost gauge.

I live at about 4000 ft and have done quite a bit of testing on this. I have a track map for 94 octane (91 + toulene) and a street map for 91 octane. My street map uses the TXS recommended timing across the board while my track map runs +1 degree of timing across the board with additional boost (peak about 15.5 PSI MAP). If I run my track map on 91 octane I will get crazy detonation. It is a misconseption that altitude helps with detonation, it just challenges you to make power.
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Old 08-20-2003, 10:02 PM   #18
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True as far as it goes. But assumes you are trying to compensate for altitude by changing the map to the same ABSOLUTE pressure at the manifold. This is quick way to disaster and unrealistic to think the poor stock turbo can do all that extra work.

So it is no myth that running the same guage boost at 5000 foot will only require 91 octane, because you are running richer than the same guage boost at sea level. It only is possible to get confused if you have a turbocharged car and then try and make up for the lack of air pressure with additional boost.
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Old 08-21-2003, 01:54 PM   #19
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It depends on your turbo, your altitude, and your level of modifications. You can hit stage 1 MAP boost levels at 5000ft, but not stage 2 while staying within a reasonable efficency range of the stock turbo. At 4000 ft you can hit both stage 1 and stage 2 MAP boost levels reasonably. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

I do agree with you that you can run the same gauge boost pressure @5000ft on 91 that you run @0ft on 93 (this convention does not apply to all altitudes though). However, there is no special anti-knock properties involved at altitude that makes this happen as you origionally stated, you are simply making a good deal less power due to the fact that you are making less pressure at the manifold. This in turn requires less knock resistance potential. Try and turn it up a notch, either by turning up the boost on your stock turbo (within its efficency range), by adding a larger turbo, or by advancing your timing and you will find out why it is a very good thing to have higher octange gas.

I am oversimplyfing things here as there are other factors involved, but a rule of thumb is:
Gauge pressure=how hard your turbo is working.
MAP pressure=how much actualy pressure is at the manifold=power potential.

If you don't want to make the most power that you can, stick with your gauge pressure at all altitudes/bad gas idea - if you want to make more power on better gas, there is more power to be had, if you understand how to extract it safely. 91 octane at high altitudes does make it very hard to accomplish though.
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