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Old 08-14-2003, 03:11 AM   #1
duckride
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Default Utec Stg2 Knock :( Help!!

I got my boost map all in order. Calibrated my map and TPS and then use the stg2new (octane challenged map they have)and paste in boost map (closed loop) and run...and I get terrible knock if I change gearsin around the 4500 RPM zone. Another thing that has be confused is that at this point the logs show completely random values for the load site (well not completely, but they are just plain wrong!!) I had two BAD det events (both from 4th to 3rd)

Code:
6006,+14.0,4.1,100, 70,   00,  rich,+21.7,  99.0,+22.9, +0.9,255.00,4.1
 5984,+13.4,4.1,100, 70,   00,  rich,+21.7,  99.0,+23.0, +0.9,255.00,4.1
 6116,+12.9,4.1,100, 70,   00,  rich,+22.2,  98.0,+23.0, +0.9,255.00,4.1
 6127,+12.5,4.1,100, 70,   00,  rich,+22.1,  99.0,+23.0, +0.8,235.00,4.1
 6242,+11.9,4.1,100, 60,   00,  rich,+22.7,  99.0,+23.0, +0.7,235.00,4.1
 6349,+12.1,4.1,100, 70,   00,  rich,+24.4,  99.0,+23.0, +0.8,235.00,4.1
 6410,+11.5,4.1,100, 60,   00,  rich,+24.9,  99.0,+23.0, +0.7,235.00,4.1
 6150, +9.2,2.1,  0, 00,   00,  rich,+10.9,  29.0,ECU. , +0.8,ECU.  ,2.0
 5847, +3.7,2.1,  0, 00,   00,  14.9,+11.0,  29.0,ECU. , +0.5,ECU.  ,2.1
 5316, -2.4,2.1,  0, 00,   00,  lean,+10.7,  29.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU.  ,2.1
 4916, -7.9,2.1,  0, 00,   00,  24.2,+11.2,  29.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU.  ,2.1
 4391,-10.0,3.2, 53, 00,   00,  24.0,+16.1,  26.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU.  ,3.3
 4541, -6.6,3.5,101, 10,   00,  12.3,+18.7,  52.0,+21.2, +0.5,335.00,3.7
 4553, -0.7,3.8,101, 40,   00,  rich,+14.5,  81.0,+20.9, +0.5,335.00,3.9
 4642, +6.2,3.9,100, 80,   13,  rich,+12.2,  90.0, +1.2, +1.1,335.00,3.9
 4516,+12.1,3.9,100, 90,   00,  rich,+11.7,  88.0, +1.0, +1.2,335.00,4.0
 4450,+14.8,3.5, 11, 00,   00,  rich,+32.3,  25.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU.  ,1.7
 4444,+10.2,2.0,  0, 00,   00,  rich,+11.3,  25.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU.  ,2.1
 4474, +3.9,2.1,  0, 00,   00,  21.1,+11.0,  25.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU.  ,2.1
 4486, -2.6,2.1,  0, 00,   00,  lean,+11.2,  25.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU.  ,2.1
 4415, -8.7,2.1,  0, 00,   00,  23.7,+11.1,  25.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU.  ,2.0
 4403,-10.0,2.0,  0, 00,   00,  24.0,+11.3,  25.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU.  ,2.0
if you notice the load site values were all right, till I changed gears and then for the knock log entry the load site is 80 but my MAP is only 6.2!! so it should actually be 40%. I don't get it!! what should I do? Here's the other event, this is even worse Need some help bad!!

Code:
5518,+16.1,4.0,100, 90,   00,  rich,+17.1, 100.0,+21.0, +0.6,300.00,4.1
 5727,+16.1,4.1,100, 80,   00,  rich,+19.3,  98.0,+21.0, +0.5,300.00,4.1
 5817,+15.5,4.1,100, 80,   00,  rich,+20.0,  98.0,+21.3, +0.8,275.00,4.1
 6195,+14.8,4.1,100, 80,   00,  rich,+20.7,  98.0,+22.0, +0.9,255.00,4.1
 6150,+14.4,4.1,100, 80,   00,  rich,+21.3,  98.0,+22.0, +0.9,255.00,4.1
 6447,+13.6,4.1, 55, 00,   00,  rich,+26.7,  30.0,ECU. , +0.8,ECU.  ,2.8
 5889, +8.1,1.9,  0, 00,   00,  rich,+10.9,  29.0,ECU. , +0.5,ECU.  ,2.0
 5420, +1.8,2.1,  0, 00,   00,  lean,+11.0,  29.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU.  ,2.1
 5089, -4.5,2.1,  0, 00,   00,  24.0,+11.0,  29.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU.  ,2.1
 4789, -9.7,2.8, 27, 00,   00,  23.7,+17.8,  25.0,ECU. , +0.0,ECU.  ,3.2
 4486, -7.2,3.4, 85, 10,   00,  13.8,+22.9,  59.0,+21.0, +0.5,ECU.  ,3.5
 4578, -2.0,3.8,100, 40,   00,  rich,+16.2,  76.0,+21.1, +0.5,335.00,3.9
 4559, +5.2,3.9,100, 80,   16,  rich, +9.6,  90.0, +1.6, +1.1,335.00,4.0
 4655,+11.9,4.0,101, 90,   00,  rich,+10.3,  94.0, +2.2, +1.2,335.00,4.0
 4694,+16.5,4.0,100,100,   00,  rich,+10.6,  93.0, +2.4, +1.3,335.00,4.0
Thanks!
Manoj
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Old 08-14-2003, 08:05 AM   #2
mixup52
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Well everytime you get a knock the utec by design retards your timing. If you look at your log

4642, +6.2,3.9,100, 80, 13, rich,+12.2, 90.0, +1.2, +1.1,335.00,3.9

Your timing has been retarded and your MAP value goes down aswell. Adjust your timing in 80% coloum at that RPM, try taking 1 degree out.

Also what octane are you running and how hot was it when you ran this log?
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Old 08-14-2003, 12:36 PM   #3
big_adventure
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Duckride,

I've got a similar problem. I have an 04 with TXS stage 2. I notice that when I downshift and hit it, I get det. However, If I just run up from constant state to WOT, I don't det. I also don't det if I downshift and then cruise for a second and then roll into WOT.

I notice that my AFR is too lean (~14.5) in the 3750-5000 range, before dropping into "rich" territory. I've been trying to add fuel, per TXS. Basically, I pulled boost WAAAAY back, and upped fuel until it stabilized. Then I upped boost. Added fuel. Upped boost, added fuel, upped boost... Eventually, yesterday, I had it stable but at only 13.5 psi. I upped the boost some this morning, and I'm back to det.

Here's a thread with more detail than you could possibly want.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=405424

For what it's worth, definitely call TXS. They're very helpful. Phil mentioned to be that the stage2new map, even though it's tuned to "octane-challenged" levels, it's still not tuned to the hideous milk-based substance that passes for reformulated CA 91-octane fuel.

Do you have an EGT gauge installed? If so, what EGTs are you seeing?

-Sean
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Old 08-14-2003, 01:39 PM   #4
Concillian
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Basically you have to tune the UTEC for conditions it really doesn't have provisions for.

1) make sure there are no MLP transitions larger than 3 degrees in the timing map. The engine is pretty sensitive to large and sudden changes in timing. The UTEC doesn't interpolate across Load Points, you have no choice but to tune around it.

2) decrease timing / add fuel in the lower load points at high RPM. You can't REALLY see where it's detting because the UTEC logging is so slow, so you have to just shotgun it. Since the UTEC makes no provision for transitions, again, you have to tune around it.

I tuned wategate pressure so that I could run no problems. As soon as I added 2 psi, even though that new load point was tuned conservatively, and either load point would be fine with a WOT run by itslef, I'd det every time I made a transition. I had to drop the lower load points from when I tuned at wastegate boost anywhere from 4 to 8 degrees in order to keep from getting det because of those two major shortcomings in the UTEC.

Since you can't tell from the log which load site(s) is causing the problem, you can try dropping the boost way down and turning it up 2psi at a time, this way you can really tell where your transition problems lie. Super huge PITA, but I don't know another way to go about it.
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Old 08-14-2003, 01:56 PM   #5
duckride
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mixup52: at this point i don't think the timing has been retarded...if you look at some of the entries earlier....i was WOT all the way.....did a slow easy gear shift (clutch in, gas out-clutch out, WOT) and then as the boost is building up....kaboom!! (well not exactly...but that's how I feel when I look at the log!!! 29 knocks at the same place )

Sean: Hmmm.....before I started using my CL boost map (which I tuned quite painstakingly to be pretty smooth and close to the recommended values at various RPMs) I had the default OL which was hitting around 14.5 PSI max I think and I wasn't getting this serious a det event ever....so maybe I should reduce boost to 14.5 and start upping my way from there? but I am already running rich at the edt point. Maybe I should add more fuel at the lower load points?

Concillian: Hmm...dropping the boost will in almost all prob get rid of this issue and I won't even know what to fix....it's like a chicken and egg problem. But I think what you say about increasing fuel and decreasing timing in the lower load high rpm regions makes sense. But I have question. Won't this mean that when I transition from the high load/high rpm cell to a low load/high rpm cell I will be transitioning more than 3 degrees ign?

BTW Phil for TXS said I should decrease timing for all load sites between 4k-4750 by about 1 or 2

Manoj
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Old 08-14-2003, 03:15 PM   #6
Concillian
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Quote:
Originally posted by duckride

Concillian: Hmm...dropping the boost will in almost all prob get rid of this issue and I won't even know what to fix....it's like a chicken and egg problem. But I think what you say about increasing fuel and decreasing timing in the lower load high rpm regions makes sense. But I have question. Won't this mean that when I transition from the high load/high rpm cell to a low load/high rpm cell I will be transitioning more than 3 degrees ign?

Manoj
Crank cycles happen very quickly (2000 RPM is well over 30 crank cycles a second), the engine will see a gradual transition, even if you don't on the logs. Also it is slightly less of an issue when going from high load to low load. But this is why you have a smooth timing curve. The stock ECU may try to give 35 degrees of advance or more when you lift off, and you're not going to get that high when you have to take the other provisions into account.

What I meant by lowering the boost was to actually tune the lower load cells. Likely it is a particlar load site or two that has the issue. In order to figure out each one, you have to try to induce the problem in each one. If you start at 90% load, and drop 8psi (50%) and the problem goes away, then you increase 2 psi (60%) from there and the problem comes back, you know exactly which load sites are causing the issue (50 and 60%, maybe 70 and 80 too when you turn it up another 2 psi)

Otherwise your only choice is to do as Phil suggests and "shotgun" the problem by decreasing everywhere, even where it might not need it.
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Old 08-14-2003, 03:17 PM   #7
big_adventure
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Phil initially made a similar rec to me. But he didn't know my EGTs at that time as he was responding to an early e-mail from me before I really had a good handle on the issue. I'd only seen it twice, and just single pings each time.

I'm working with him now trying to get through this. I think we're on a good track, and I'll let you know.

-Sean
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Old 08-14-2003, 11:10 PM   #8
Stang2WRX
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what octane are you running?

-Chris
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Old 08-14-2003, 11:20 PM   #9
Tobey
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i had the same problem.

i brought the utec timing control down to the 10% column and used the values in my 60% column to fill those cells.

i also worked my timing values DOWN so that there were no spikes from cell to cell. basically vertically and horizontally there are no values with a difference of +/- 2.

it smoothed things out. i was told that my knock was because the timing was jumping load cells. not sure if this is your issue but it cured my problems.
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Old 08-15-2003, 12:36 PM   #10
duckride
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I am running 91 octane and the st2new (octane challenged map) and yeah....in this map the utec was controlling the timing all the way to the 10% column, i followed Phil (from TXS) and hippy's suggestion and lowered my timing by 1 across all load sites between 4000 and 4750 and also copied the 40% timing values to the 0% column...I seem to have gotten rid of all knock except a minor one when I shift between 4th and 5th and do WOT. if i slip the throttle in smooth it does not happen...

Today Bill from I-speed is going to road tune my car....I will let him take over from here. Since this is the first time I am doing this...I wanted to watch a pro do it and learn before I bust up my ej20

Manoj
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Old 08-15-2003, 01:05 PM   #11
big_adventure
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Duckride,

Yep, that's my issue. Smooth throt, no probs (mostly). Hard throt, though, means det.

Phil suspects it's the same thing - transition knock. He's been working with me, but it's not going to matter soon. Tomorrow I'm having it tuned. I, too, want to learn more following an expert.

-Sean
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Old 08-16-2003, 10:52 AM   #12
Nok's WRX
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Question Cel flashed

while on 2nd gear high rpms. I did not get to take a look at my rpms, just let go of the gas when it flashed (twice).

I'm still running stg 2 93 oct base map (open loop), gain at 43 and MAP is not calibrated yet (just installed it this week).

It never did that before, maybe it was because I was going uphill...

Need to log and see if it occurs again.


Noksie
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