Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Thursday May 28, 2015
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Archives > NASIOC Archives > STi Forum Archive

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-16-2003, 12:59 PM   #1
PA04STI
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 37418
Join Date: May 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Butler, PA
Vehicle:
0491 STi FPGreen'd
GSX Evo III 16G

Default Question for thoose who drag their STi

Hey for you guys that go to the 1/4 mile with your STi. I wanted to get input on what rpm you guys launch at. also do you ride the clutch or just drop it. I am going next week to the strip and don't want to look like an a@@. I have been going between 4500-5000 rpm and dropping the clutch at 5000 it launches anything under 4000 there is major hesitation (lag). Give me some input on the best launch method for the STi. Thanks guys!

Matt
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
PA04STI is offline  
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 08-16-2003, 03:46 PM   #2
300blueballs
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 39941
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Binghamton, NY
Vehicle:
2004 Impreza WRX STi
Blue

Default

I found it easier to launch in with the DCCD on "Lock", slipping the clutch at 3500.
300blueballs is offline  
Old 08-16-2003, 10:19 PM   #3
Zoso
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 37962
Join Date: Jun 2003
Vehicle:
2006 CGM STI
2000 Outback & 05 BMW M3

Default Re: Question for thoose who drag their STi

Quote:
Originally posted by PA04STI
Hey for you guys that go to the 1/4 mile with your STi. I wanted to get input on what rpm you guys launch at. also do you ride the clutch or just drop it. I am going next week to the strip and don't want to look like an a@@. I have been going between 4500-5000 rpm and dropping the clutch at 5000 it launches anything under 4000 there is major hesitation (lag). Give me some input on the best launch method for the STi. Thanks guys!

Matt

You just drop the clutch no slip at all and it doesn't bog? I'm afraid to just drop the clutch, especially with the RE070's, but if I do a clutch slip at 4.5-5K I get that burnt clutch smell. I think I'm letting the clutch out as fast as possible without dropping it, but then again, maybe I'm not? I've tried different DCCD settings, but I don't notice that much difference on the launch. I'd like to hear from some others on this and please don't tell me launching an STi is just like a regular WRX.
Zoso is offline  
Old 08-16-2003, 10:41 PM   #4
Janq
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 33246
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Where ever I lay my hat is my
Vehicle:
1993 Legacy L+ AWD
Phoenician blue met./blue

Default

I don't drag race and I've only done a handful of launches (off the road on a strecth of uncapped road in an are under construction in the back of my neighborhood) and I've found that by far setting the DCCD to manual and with a forward bias helps _bigtime_ for getting moving with quickness and no clutch burn or bogging. Once on the roll I reach back and throw it into AUTO or roll back on the bias toward the rear.

- Janq
Janq is offline  
Old 08-16-2003, 11:00 PM   #5
RafalW
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 8193
Join Date: Jul 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Illinois, USA
Vehicle:
2008 WRX STI
Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Janq
setting the DCCD to manual and with a forward bias helps _bigtime_ for getting moving with quickness and no clutch burn or bogging. Once on the roll I reach back and throw it into AUTO or roll back on the bias toward the rear.
I think you missed some big ass threads about DCCD and what it really does.
RafalW is offline  
Old 08-16-2003, 11:00 PM   #6
Zoso
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 37962
Join Date: Jun 2003
Vehicle:
2006 CGM STI
2000 Outback & 05 BMW M3

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Janq
I've found that by far setting the DCCD to manual and with a forward bias helps _bigtime_ for getting moving with quickness and no clutch burn or bogging. Once on the roll I reach back and throw it into AUTO or roll back on the bias toward the rear.

- Janq
Any theories as to why? The AUTO setting should have some kind of program for a hard launch?
Zoso is offline  
Old 08-16-2003, 11:39 PM   #7
Janq
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 33246
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Where ever I lay my hat is my
Vehicle:
1993 Legacy L+ AWD
Phoenician blue met./blue

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Zoso


Any theories as to why? The AUTO setting should have some kind of program for a hard launch?
What I've found is that in the AUTO setting the computer works oka, but Manual mode is much better for a high speed take off.

With a rear bias I've found that power/torque gets absorbed by the rear end and the rear diff locks resulting in a lsight delay and the engine bogging as the car begins to move forward.

With a front bias I've found that in practice the car still lodad up the rear with weight transfer but the torque does not cause the rear end to lock and all four wheels grab tar throwing the car forward and with no bogging effect or perceptible pain on the clutch/drivetrain.

Go try it yourself and time your runs.
You'll see. For a drag race style start (dry tar based surface) your times will be quicker with a front bias rather than rear or AUTO mode setting.

Or at least thats the way it is in my car on my test roads using my speed/distance GPS based timing & tracking device.

YMMV,

- Janq
Janq is offline  
Old 08-18-2003, 01:31 PM   #8
RafalW
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 8193
Join Date: Jul 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Illinois, USA
Vehicle:
2008 WRX STI
Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Janq
What I've found is that in the AUTO setting the computer works oka, but Manual mode is much better for a high speed take off.
I agree here but for different reasons than yours.
Quote:
With a rear bias I've found that power/torque gets absorbed by the rear end and the rear diff locks resulting in a slight delay and the engine bogging as the car begins to move forward.
And here it's a mistery to me.
"Rear BIAS" means DCCD in open state so you can spin rear independetly from fronts. From my observation of hard lunches in "open" this is exactly what is happening helping NOT to bog the engine.
Quote:
With a front bias I've found that in practice the car still lodad up the rear with weight transfer but the torque does not cause the rear end to lock and all four wheels grab tar throwing the car forward and with no bogging effect or perceptible pain on the clutch/drivetrain.
"Front BIAS" means "locked central diff". It means you can spin only all four wheels or none. It will work better on a low grip surface but on a high grip will bog the engine.
Quote:
Go try it yourself and time your runs.
I did try it and watched others doing it to see from the side what is happening.
Quote:
You'll see. For a drag race style start (dry tar based surface) your times will be quicker with a front bias rather than rear or AUTO mode setting.
I noticed opposite. What were your numbers?
Quote:
Or at least thats the way it is in my car on my test roads using my speed/distance GPS based timing & tracking device.
How hard you are on clutch doing this?
RafalW is offline  
Old 08-18-2003, 01:55 PM   #9
Janq
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 33246
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Where ever I lay my hat is my
Vehicle:
1993 Legacy L+ AWD
Phoenician blue met./blue

Default

You are thinking in the extremes.
The top most setting on the DCCD is in fact "LOCK" and the bottom most is the open state. I'm not using or referencing either of those though.

The front & rear bias variables are indicated via the four triangles located in between the two extremes.
Front bias means just that, a bias of power toward the front axle (first two triangles). A rear bias is the same with more power/torque going to the rear axle (last two triangles).
For an even (50/50) amount of power/torque bias one would either choose the LOCK setting to synch both axles to each other or choose the 'Open' mode to allow either axle to rotate at individual rates if necessary (such as when cornering on dry surfaces).

You can try an acceleration pass in LOCK mode if you wish but I'm not doing it in my car. Let us know how that works out for you.

I'm going relativley easy on the clutch revving to 1500 -1800 RPM though I did try a 2K RPM clutch dump with no good results. I don't find, in my car, that a high RPM clutch dump is necessary as the car gains ground very quickly once the drivetrain hooks up. But thats me. YMMV.
I'm not a drag racer nor do I intend to drag an AWD car (kind of silly). But I was curious and as such is why I experimented to get the results I found.

As for times per run, I didn't record them.
I was just fooling around for my own entertainment & wonder nor was I at a track. My only witnesses to this have been my mother in-law (it was here idea!) and my father in-law who were passengers.

For time measurement & tracking I use a Timex/Garmin GPS based time, speed & distance measuring and collection device that has a 99% accuracy rating. My efforts were run back to back so any gains/losses were relative and scientific.
Also at the time I was running with a full tank of gas (weight transfer matters) as well as the factory suggested 36/30 tire pressure settings. Road conditions were near perfect on freshly laid & unsused tar in a striaght line for 1/2 a mile in distance. I ran both ways though it didn't matter as the road had just been paved days before.

Again, YMMV.

- Janq

---
Quote:
Originally posted by RafalW
[b]
I agree here but for different reasons than yours.
[b]
And here it's a mistery to me.
"Rear BIAS" means DCCD in open state so you can spin rear independetly from fronts. From my observation of hard lunches in "open" this is exactly what is happening helping NOT to bog the engine.
[b]
"Front BIAS" means "locked central diff". It means you can spin only all four wheels or none. It will work better on a low grip surface but on a high grip will bog the engine.
[b]
I did try it and watched others doing it to see from the side what is happening.
[b]
I noticed opposite. What were your numbers?

How hard you are on clutch doing this?
Janq is offline  
Old 08-18-2003, 02:06 PM   #10
RafalW
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 8193
Join Date: Jul 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Illinois, USA
Vehicle:
2008 WRX STI
Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Janq
The front & rear bias variables are indicated via the four triangles located in between the two extremes.
Front bias means just that, a bias of power toward the front axle (first two triangles). A rear bias is the same with more power/torque going to the rear axle (last two triangles).
For an even (50/50) amount of power/torque bias one would either choose the LOCK setting to synch both axles to each other or choose the 'Open' mode to allow either axle to rotate at individual rates if necessary (such as when cornering on dry surfaces).
You are very mistaken about DCCD and "meaning" of this small symbols. This wheel is only controlling the amount of lock of the central diff and nothing else. It DOES NOT controll torque distribution like you think.
Quote:
You can try an acceleration pass in LOCK mode if you wish but I'm not doing it in my car. Let us know how that works out for you.
Lock and one click down from lock is not so much different. Let's say it's like 100% and 90% lock.
Quote:
I'm going relativley easy on the clutch revving to 1500 -1800 RPM though I did try a 2K RPM clutch dump with no good results.
So you did not try any hard lunches yet.
And I am not a drag racer but when you try to AutoX there is always some time to gain at the start.
RafalW is offline  
Old 08-18-2003, 02:13 PM   #11
RafalW
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 8193
Join Date: Jul 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Illinois, USA
Vehicle:
2008 WRX STI
Blue

Default

Check out this thread for a long discussion about DCCD if you wish:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=358602
RafalW is offline  
Old 08-18-2003, 02:43 PM   #12
Janq
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 33246
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Where ever I lay my hat is my
Vehicle:
1993 Legacy L+ AWD
Phoenician blue met./blue

Default

Oh but I am correct and the DCCD does in fact specifically control/vary torque bias between the front & rear axles while torque apportionment wheel to wheel per axle is handled by the axle specific diffs.
The 'locking' effect you speak of is varied from full lock to full open with the intermediate settings (as indicated by the triangles) providing varying amounts of center diff lock again allowing transfer of power/torque bias front to rear.

The percentages in bias apportionment per setting are available somewhere as I recall seeing an image detailing just this info per setting. I don't have time right now to go hunting after it but this info is out there I know.

I do not agree that the first triangle is 90/10.
What it is exactly I'm not 100% sure but 90/10 it ain't.

What do you define as a "hard launch".
If you mean a high RPM clutch drop then no I have not, and do not intend to do so.

Have you?!

- Janq

"Subaru's center differential contributes to performance for ideal traction for all four wheels by appropriately distributing the torque. Moreover, a racing driver noted, "Driving a car involves controlling the traction to all four wheels." Subaru's center differential regarded this as important function and actually achieved. The center differential is one of the main factors that enables AWD driving performance, which is responsive and superbly faithful to the driver's will." - Hiroshi Nakabe, Subaru Global

---

Quote:
Originally posted by RafalW
[b]
You are very mistaken about DCCD and "meaning" of this small symbols. This wheel is only controlling the amount of lock of the central diff and nothing else. It DOES NOT controll torque distribution like you think.
[b]
Lock and one click down from lock is not so much different. Let's say it's like 100% and 90% lock.

So you did not try any hard lunches yet.
And I am not a drag racer but when you try to AutoX there is always some time to gain at the start.
Janq is offline  
Old 08-18-2003, 02:49 PM   #13
Janq
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 33246
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Where ever I lay my hat is my
Vehicle:
1993 Legacy L+ AWD
Phoenician blue met./blue

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by RafalW
Check out this thread for a long discussion about DCCD if you wish:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=358602
For a spell before I actually got my car I followed it, thanks.

- Janq
Janq is offline  
Old 08-18-2003, 03:13 PM   #14
happasaiyan
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 37731
Join Date: Jun 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Rolling Meadows, IL
Default

im going to have to agree with janq here. i believe in the manual it states specifically its a torque distribution.
happasaiyan is offline  
Old 08-18-2003, 03:20 PM   #15
RafalW
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 8193
Join Date: Jul 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Illinois, USA
Vehicle:
2008 WRX STI
Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Janq
Oh but I am correct and the DCCD does in fact specifically control/vary torque bias between the front & rear axles while torque apportionment wheel to wheel per axle is handled by the axle specific diffs.
The 'locking' effect you speak of is varied from full lock to full open with the intermediate settings (as indicated by the triangles) providing varying amounts of center diff lock again allowing transfer of power/torque bias front to rear.
But this "transfer of power/torque bias front to rear" is not dialed like you think. In open you have 35/65 but in full lock you can have from 100/0 to 0/100 with anything in between. So using a term: "forward bias" is showing your complete luck of understanding DCCD.
Quote:
The percentages in bias apportionment per setting are available somewhere as I recall seeing an image detailing just this info per setting. I don't have time right now to go hunting after it but this info is out there I know.
Percentage of lock - sure. But not percentage of torque.
Quote:
I do not agree that the first triangle is 90/10.
What it is exactly I'm not 100% sure but 90/10 it ain't.
I never wrote 90/10. I wrote "90% lock" and it means something completely different then you think. And I said I am not sure exact number I just know it's less then 100% and more then 0% but closer to 100%.
Quote:
What do you define as a "hard launch".
If you mean a high RPM clutch drop then no I have not, and do not intend to do so.
It does not need to be a drop. Just very quick release at high revs. It's not a Viper or Z06. It's a turbo car. You need a fuul load on turbo to get it moving so you need high revs.
Quote:
"Subaru's center differential contributes to performance for ideal traction for all four wheels by appropriately distributing the torque. Moreover, a racing driver noted, "Driving a car involves controlling the traction to all four wheels." Subaru's center differential regarded this as important function and actually achieved. The center differential is one of the main factors that enables AWD driving performance, which is responsive and superbly faithful to the driver's will." -
Nice marketing quote. So does it mean "yes" or "no".
RafalW is offline  
Old 08-18-2003, 03:36 PM   #16
Janq
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 33246
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Where ever I lay my hat is my
Vehicle:
1993 Legacy L+ AWD
Phoenician blue met./blue

Default

Ok RafalW I'm totally wrong & mistaken.


My interest is wearing thin on this item.
Again though, have _you_ tried your own theories and/or a "hard launch" in your own STi? What were the results?

- Janq
Janq is offline  
Old 08-18-2003, 04:00 PM   #17
RafalW
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 8193
Join Date: Jul 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Illinois, USA
Vehicle:
2008 WRX STI
Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Janq
Ok RafalW I'm totally wrong & mistaken.
Do not roll your eyes on me like that. If you'd spend some time digging this subject you would know you are wrong.
Quote:
My interest is wearing thin on this item.
So you'd rather be misinformed?
Quote:
Again though, have _you_ tried your own theories and/or a "hard launch" in your own STi? What were the results?
I did not time them but I tried some different lunches. The point is not to bog the engine applying the max torque to the ground. For this the tire slip is your friend. With opened DCCD and high revs you can actually spin rear wheels making launch really fast. Your way feel a lot slower without any axtra equipment. Cluch drop from 2K RPMs (like you tried) is a joke cause you do not even make to the peak of torque curve. You need to rev it over 5K and either fast release it (with some slip and smell) or almost drop it. Dropping is not a problem anyway cause you can brake tires loose anyway and there is a Subaru's protection not allowing to abuse your tranny like early WRXs did.
Anyway it's your car and do what you want. I just could not stand your repeated "front or rear bias" terms when they are completely wrong.
RafalW is offline  
Old 08-18-2003, 04:13 PM   #18
300blueballs
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 39941
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Binghamton, NY
Vehicle:
2004 Impreza WRX STi
Blue

Default

I'm going to have to back up Janq on his theory of it being "easier" to launch the car in LOCK mode. I tried to search through the DCCD post but my eyes were tired of reading through all the endless technical arguments. All I know is that I didn't learn a dam thing because everyone has got a different theory.

Anyway, I have tried 3 different settings on the DCCD when launching: AUTO, Full rear, and Lock. I quickly slipped the clutch between 3500-4000rpms and found it more effective doing this in "Lock" mode. In AUTO the car completely bogged. It seemed that the computer was trying to figure out the best distribution which made me bog. I also thought that full rear bias would help but again the car bogged down. In full lock I got the tires to chirp without bogging and went from 0-30 faster than I've ever gone in my life.
300blueballs is offline  
Old 08-18-2003, 04:19 PM   #19
Janq
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 33246
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Where ever I lay my hat is my
Vehicle:
1993 Legacy L+ AWD
Phoenician blue met./blue

Default

I use your method of a max power/torque 4K RPM shift when accelerating on a roll such as in a top gear acceleration run or when blasting through my local back roads and wanting to shoot out of the corners. Oh, and I like to 'bias' my power toward the rear during such adventures. But to each their own.

As for you not liking my terminology and/or it being wrong, thats funny as its the same term used by the good folks at Subaru both at their website(s) and in the owners manual as previously mentioned.

But then maybe they too are 'wrong' and/or 'mistaken' (?).

Ciao!

- Janq
Janq is offline  
Old 08-18-2003, 04:26 PM   #20
RafalW
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 8193
Join Date: Jul 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Illinois, USA
Vehicle:
2008 WRX STI
Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Janq
As for you not liking my terminology and/or it being wrong, thats funny as its the same term used by the good folks at Subaru both at their website(s) and in the owners manual as previously mentioned.
But then maybe they too are 'wrong' and/or 'mistaken' (?).
Quite possible I missed this. Where in manual they use "front bias"? Give me the page and I gladly verify it in mine.
RafalW is offline  
Old 08-18-2003, 04:28 PM   #21
Belvadere
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 38664
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Dallas
Vehicle:
2004 WRX STi
White/Silver

Default

My only question to those who DRAG their STi is:

WHY?

(No, I really don't want an answer because I'm too old to care.)
Belvadere is offline  
Old 08-18-2003, 04:30 PM   #22
Janq
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 33246
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Where ever I lay my hat is my
Vehicle:
1993 Legacy L+ AWD
Phoenician blue met./blue

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Belvadere
My only question to those who DRAG their STi is:

WHY?

(No, I really don't want an answer because I'm too old to care.)
Double Ditto.

- Janq
Janq is offline  
Old 08-18-2003, 04:30 PM   #23
RafalW
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 8193
Join Date: Jul 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Illinois, USA
Vehicle:
2008 WRX STI
Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by 300blueballs
Anyway, I have tried 3 different settings on the DCCD when launching: AUTO, Full rear, and Lock. I quickly slipped the clutch between 3500-4000rpms and found it more effective doing this in "Lock" mode. In AUTO the car completely bogged. It seemed that the computer was trying to figure out the best distribution which made me bog. I also thought that full rear bias would help but again the car bogged down. In full lock I got the tires to chirp without bogging and went from 0-30 faster than I've ever gone in my life.
I think your experience differs from mine cause you did not apply loud pedal (lower revs or not WOT or too late). I tried to figure it out on Evolution school and there was another STi there with comparable findings.
In fact even in auto mode I was able to lunch quite good.
And simple logic shows in lock mode you have to break all four tires when in open just two.
RafalW is offline  
Old 08-18-2003, 04:32 PM   #24
RafalW
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 8193
Join Date: Jul 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Illinois, USA
Vehicle:
2008 WRX STI
Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Belvadere
My only question to those who DRAG their STi is:
WHY?
So ask these who do. My car never saw a drag strip.
RafalW is offline  
Old 08-18-2003, 04:38 PM   #25
Belvadere
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 38664
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Dallas
Vehicle:
2004 WRX STi
White/Silver

Default

Belvadere is offline  
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
For those who got their STI mesh foglight covers for your 02-03 WRX from the dealer PhastEddie Interior & Exterior Modification 0 02-27-2007 10:53 PM
Question for people who dyno'd their car at EngineLogics nxttruck2002 Texas Impreza Club Forum -- TXIC 8 01-02-2007 06:47 PM
Question for those who removed their bumper vent covers edkwon Interior & Exterior Modification 8 12-13-2001 09:15 AM
a question for anyone who turboed their RS IMPREZA GUY New England Impreza Club Forum -- NESIC 33 10-12-2001 11:56 PM
Questions for people who have their windows tinted CM Vancouver Impreza Club Forum -- VIC 14 09-16-2001 03:37 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2015 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2015, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.