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Old 08-19-2003, 10:50 PM   #1
AzNStiImpreza
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Default Apex Super AFC question

alright, im thinking about buying the apex s-afc for my car. my mods are cold airintake, cat back exhaust, header, Cams, and pulleys. I want to know if the s-afc will help my car gain/ produce more horsepower. i feel that my car should be faster than it is. IMO, my car is running too damn rich at wot. Im trying to lean it out a little. any comment will help. i only found one thread by searching.
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Old 08-19-2003, 11:43 PM   #2
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It should help regulate the fuel map in addition to reaching closer to the full potential of your mods. However dont take my word as fact, Im just goin off of what Ive read about the unit.
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Old 08-20-2003, 02:10 AM   #3
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Forget it unless you're buying new injectors. the SAFC is mostly a waste, unless you just about to buy a piggyback ecu or something AND have other add-on tweaks like an ignition timer.
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Old 08-20-2003, 09:10 AM   #4
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Default Re: Apex Super AFC question

Quote:
Originally posted by AzNStiImpreza
alright, im thinking about buying the apex s-afc for my car. my mods are cold airintake, cat back exhaust, header, Cams, and pulleys. I want to know if the s-afc will help my car gain/ produce more horsepower. i feel that my car should be faster than it is. IMO, my car is running too damn rich at wot. Im trying to lean it out a little. any comment will help. i only found one thread by searching.
the SAFC is pretty useless on the 00-01 MAP based Imprezas... the ECU adjusts around it...
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Old 08-20-2003, 09:34 AM   #5
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I'd re-think your theory on running rich. Everyone talks about running too rich with this and that mod and want to lean things out. The OEM tables are set to the lean side of things for emissions...not rich.

You want to add fuel to make power, not take it away from an already lean setup (intake, cams, exhaust). All those things improve AIR FLOW. Take away fuel and you're going to lose power.

Yes, the later ECU's learn around the SAFC over time, so resets are needed for optimum power. How long between resets is debatable.....I drive a 96 and 98 so I don't worry about such things.

I DO worry about ever leaning out the curve again. -14% plus crappy Kansas corn gas caused misfires under load at 3000rpm. After frantically going through every possible cause during our first day of runs in Topeka last year, we finally resorted to adding about 20% fuel to the curve. Upon this change alone, we went from massive misfiring to 4 wheel burnouts at the launch, inside wheelspin exiting corners, and huge gains in accelleration in general. We learned our lesson and were actually laughed at by others (old skool tuners) who thought we were complete noobs for pulling fuel from an OEM ECU program.

Your milage may vary, but for us....with just I/H/E mods, adding fuel was the way to go.

Jay Storm
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Old 08-20-2003, 11:54 AM   #6
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Jay,
What kind of intake are you running? I have a 98 as well, I'm running a JC sports intake, exhaust, flywheel, pully and soon to have Borla's. I'm really thinking I need some kind of fuel management. Ideally I would get a link plus so I could have complete control and to allow for turboing later, but my finances dictate that I may have to search for a more affordable solution. So I am thinking about a SAFC as well. I am curios how I should tune around the intake as I know it causes the MAF to read inaccurately above 5k. Thats another reason why I need some kind of management, I want my redline to be back at 6500 again. I stop at 5K right now to avoid any lean run conditions.
Thanks
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Old 08-20-2003, 11:57 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Compressed
Jay,
What kind of intake are you running? I have a 98 as well, I'm running a JC sports intake, exhaust, flywheel, pully and soon to have Borla's. I'm really thinking I need some kind of fuel management. Ideally I would get a link plus so I could have complete control and to allow for turboing later, but my finances dictate that I may have to search for a more affordable solution. So I am thinking about a SAFC as well. I am curios how I should tune around the intake as I know it causes the MAF to read inaccurately above 5k. Thats another reason why I need some kind of management, I want my redline to be back at 6500 again. I stop at 5K right now to avoid any lean run conditions.
Thanks
you can fix that with the AFC...
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Old 08-20-2003, 12:11 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by DanzBorin

you can fix that with the AFC...
Yeah, I know. I need to just spend the cash and be done with it. I really want to go the turbo route so I have been trying to save $ for that. The AFC will be usefull if I go turbo anyhow, and I can always sell it if I go standalone, so I might as well just order it. Now to decide if I want to spend the extra for the SAFC II or just stick with the SAFC.

Any tips for the cheapest price?
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Old 08-20-2003, 12:21 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Compressed
Yeah, I know. I need to just spend the cash and be done with it. I really want to go the turbo route so I have been trying to save $ for that. The AFC will be usefull if I go turbo anyhow, and I can always sell it if I go standalone, so I might as well just order it. Now to decide if I want to spend the extra for the SAFC II or just stick with the SAFC.

Any tips for the cheapest price?
If you buy new, spend the couple extra bucks to get the safc II... it does have a lot of really useful features the first doesn't... if you can wait, find a cheap used SAFC
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Old 08-20-2003, 11:00 PM   #10
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I got one sitting in my closet which I really don't think I will use again since I am getting another car soon. I am leaving for dallas and austin in the morning but will be home in 2 weeks if anyones interested in a Ver.1.
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Old 08-21-2003, 09:14 AM   #11
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When we first ran into lean troubles, we had a WeaponR tube fed by NACA ducting directly to the bumper vent with a small filter inline. Exhaust was Borla header, SPT midpipe and backbox. After getting some wonderful Kansas corn gas, we didn't reset the ECU, so it was still running to our Ohio gas and cooler temps settings. It made for major misfiring to the point where the car wouldn't rev above 3k unless you backed off to 25% throttle. We changed wires, plugs, cleaned contacts on coil, ignitor, cleared vacuum lines to FPR, checked voltage at pump.....everything we could think of while still swapping in and out of the car for our runs on the first day of competition. Finally after 2 runs of total misery, a local friend (ASE cert. and known V8 and bike tuner)inquired about our fuel settings. When I showed him, he slapped me upside the head and shifted the curve from an avg. of -12%(ramping up from 0) to +25% (ramping up from +5%)and disconnecting the FPR for max pressure at all times. The next (and last of the day) runs had us running with SO MUCH power we totally blew the runs because we were behind the cars potential. That night we drove the snot out of the car getting seat time and the next day I was MUCH higher in the pack, but not enough to drag my butt out of the hole I dug and into trophy position.

Now we have changed some things around to stay on top of our game (tell ya after Topeka) and are currently richening at about +15% on stock injectors but beefed up fuel delivery. At WOT, we're not pegging our A/F meter(unless it's really cold), but are sitting nice and squarely in the rich zone. We get a noticable plume of black exhaust when nailing it coming out of a turn or launching, with some of the residue noticable after a couple runs on a freshly cleaned muffler tip. We still need to get the car tuned further on a dyno....but we're far from the closest one (to us) in MI. and our schedule hasn't been the best for free time. I haven't measured actual voltages from the MAF, but I don't think we're so inaccurate that the mixture will be too lean. It could be too rich too....hmmmm I haven't heard of bad readings above 5k. The MAF doesn't care what RPM the motor is at, it's only reading how much air is passing through.....the ECU decides what to do from there.....

There's alot more left for us before we go full standalone...believe me...I'd love nothing more than to spin this thing up to 7200 so I wouldn't have to grab 3rd so much oncourse with the 15's (oops did I just give away our tire size??? Sean? Bueller?) Until that point comes, we're happy with the SAFC. Probably be even happier once it's fully tuned on a dyno.....

Good luck,
Jay Storm
www.sourcemotorsports.com

Quote:
Originally posted by Compressed
Jay,
What kind of intake are you running? I have a 98 as well, I'm running a JC sports intake, exhaust, flywheel, pully and soon to have Borla's. I'm really thinking I need some kind of fuel management. Ideally I would get a link plus so I could have complete control and to allow for turboing later, but my finances dictate that I may have to search for a more affordable solution. So I am thinking about a SAFC as well. I am curios how I should tune around the intake as I know it causes the MAF to read inaccurately above 5k. Thats another reason why I need some kind of management, I want my redline to be back at 6500 again. I stop at 5K right now to avoid any lean run conditions.
Thanks

Last edited by Storm; 08-21-2003 at 09:20 AM.
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Old 08-21-2003, 10:53 AM   #12
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I may be interested

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Old 08-21-2003, 12:52 PM   #13
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Thanks for the detailed reply Jay. I would agree that the safc is a great unit and lots can be done with it, dsm guys have been using just the afc to make big power for a long time. I was trying to wait until I have money to buy a stand alone so I could adjust timing from a NA profile to one suitable for FI for when I go turbo, but I am starting to think that a safc will be great for now and when and if I go turbo I can get an ITC to retard timing. I'm looking into the differences between the safc and safc II and am leaning towards the ver. 2 as it is much more robust unit.

Here are the new features of ver. 2
12 points of fuel adjustment vs. 8
Adjustable fuel increments: 500 rpm 200 rpm
Additional functions : -- Knocking level monitor
-- New monitor screen
-- Two memory recall for data setting
-- By pass correction
-- Engine caution warning
-- Password lock

Question
Does anyone know if the knock sensor can be logged on our obdII cars? I know with the 2nd gen dsm's (obdII) the knock sensor cant be logged with the v.2. What about our cars?
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Old 08-21-2003, 02:49 PM   #14
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its wierd tho. my car runs so smooth and quick if i rev a 3/4 throttle at high rpms, but at WOT it is naturally faster, but it doesnt feel as fast as it should be compared to the half-3/4 throttle.

i always heard that most car run rich at WOT and with fuel management u can lean it out to gain a little more hp. maybe my intake filter is getting too dirty and im not getting enuff air in the motor. puhahaha. it has been over a year since i changed or cleaned it.

interesting stuff i tell u.

Ive done some extra searching too. some of the guys here says that older rs tend to run leaner and newer model rs runs richer at WOT. i heard the SAFC wont really do much for half throttle power, but it is really good for WOT. im basically an idiot when it comes to cars, but something about at half/partial throttle the ecu runs at a closed loop or wutever, so it works around the safc to run "normal" fuel ratios. but at WOT it runs an open loop wutever, and the SAFC can take over at WOT without being effected by the 00-01 ecu.... anyway, some guy on these boards somewhere took .50 off his 1/4mile time after proper tuning with the SAFC with a 00-01 impreza rs.

Last edited by AzNStiImpreza; 08-21-2003 at 03:36 PM.
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Old 08-22-2003, 03:17 AM   #15
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Default Re: shameless plug...

Quote:
Originally posted by Poppa smurf
I got one sitting in my closet which I really don't think I will use again.....if anyones interested in a Ver.1.
I am, PM me if you want to sell it. -Andy
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Old 08-22-2003, 03:23 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by AzNStiImpreza
....some of the guys here says that older rs tend to run leaner and newer model rs runs richer at WOT. i heard the SAFC wont really do much for half throttle power, but it is really good for WOT. im basically an idiot when it comes to cars, but something about at half/partial throttle the ecu runs at a closed loop or wutever, so it works around the safc to run "normal" fuel ratios. but at WOT it runs an open loop wutever, and the SAFC can take over at WOT without being effected by the 00-01 ecu....
That is my understanding as well.
I also hear that the SAFC is more functional with a ProECM due to it tweaking the open/closed loop game.
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Old 08-22-2003, 10:49 AM   #17
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it sounds all good to me. and it is well worth the time because you'll end up learning more about your car. plus, if it doesnt workthe way you want it, there are plenty of people out there looking for a used safc, since it is universal.
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Old 08-22-2003, 11:03 AM   #18
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AzNStiImpreza- if you do get an afc, be sure to let us know how it works out and the gains felt. I have been following these threads closely, in all the forums. I am in the same boat as you, except i have a exedy clutch and lw flywheel instead of cams.
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Old 08-22-2003, 11:33 AM   #19
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alright. im going to get it dyno tuned as a group with my club. so i should be getting a good deal on the tuning, and i know a guy who will install it for me for 50 bucks. hopefully everything will work out well. i know that the safc enables you to control the ratios of lo throttle and high throttle positions. since the low throttl positions will mos tlikely be nulled by the subaru ecu, im only going to tune the high throttle positions where the open loop is in affect.
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Old 08-22-2003, 11:39 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by AzNStiImpreza
alright. im going to get it dyno tuned as a group with my club. so i should be getting a good deal on the tuning, and i know a guy who will install it for me for 50 bucks. hopefully everything will work out well. i know that the safc enables you to control the ratios of lo throttle and high throttle positions. since the low throttl positions will mos tlikely be nulled by the subaru ecu, im only going to tune the high throttle positions where the open loop is in affect.
shoot... I'd install it for 45... truthfully... you shouldn't pay anyone 50 for that... most you should pay is a sixer of brews... it's an easy install... I think you tap 4 wires and splice another 2...
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Old 08-23-2003, 01:25 PM   #21
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im very stupid when it comes to my cars electronics. i got my car used and didnt even know that i had a 6 disc cd changer until one day my friend said "whoa, you have a six disc cd changer in this car?" ....i was like..."whoa! realy?!?!" im an idiot.
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Old 12-25-2003, 03:07 AM   #22
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Default finally...

i JUST got an safc installed. after months and months. i got a good deal for a version 1 from my friend...and he installed it for free...with my help. 100 bucks for the safc. anyway, we did some road tuning...(yes...it is dangerous...but the roads are empty). anyway...we tuned it mildly leaning out the fuel on hi-throttle positions only... i did not touch lo-throttle becuz of adaptive ecu issues or wutever... so far, the car is really smooth now through the powerband at WOT. Butt dyno tellls me there are some gains. my friends always watches my car from behind when i gun it to red line and shifting every gear. before the safc install and tuning, i threw a lot black smoke at every shift (rich signal). Today, after the safc tuning, i WOT every gear and when i shifted a little smoke came out...but it wasnt black. so that is a good thing. i hope the ecu doesnt learn around the hi-throttle positions...

has anybody else gotten any updates with the safc on the 2000-2001 imprezas?

-vu-
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Old 12-25-2003, 04:33 AM   #23
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what other mods do you have, if any?
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Old 12-25-2003, 12:30 PM   #24
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Apex n1 catback exhaust, Rallispec CAMS, Injen Cold Air Intake, Borla header, Unothodx pulleys, Kartboy shortshifter, errrr....eibach prokit springs, and kyb gr2 shocks...and errr...a lot of other stuff.
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