Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Friday July 1, 2016
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Normally Aspirated Powertrain

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads. 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-20-2003, 12:04 AM   #1
mike270
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12863
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Vehicle:
2002 2.5RS

Default Am I driving the engine hard?

Just want to get a general opinion if I drive my car hard. Meaning that I am causing more wear on the engine than is normal for it and will cause more problems.

I shift at 2.5k rpm while cold, then I normally shift between 3.5k and 4k rpm when the needle has been up to its normal spot for a couple minutes or so. I have 10k miles on my car so far in two years so I know that isn't the best for it since most my drives are roughly 8 miles or so.

I know this is a very debatable topic so any input would be appreciated.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
mike270 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 08-20-2003, 12:23 AM   #2
dcoty
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 3149
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: montreal quebec
Vehicle:
01 V7 GC/R32 sky

Default

In my opinion:

You are fine, a 2,500 rpm shift when cold is fine. I am usually careful in the winter with cold starts (i let it sit for a few mins), but otherwise, dont worry. I normally shift at 3.5-4k as well. I would consider that normal driving if you ask me.

Keep on truckin'!

Dan
dcoty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2003, 12:42 AM   #3
Patrick Olsen
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 120
Join Date: Jul 1999
Chapter/Region: AKIC
Location: Where the Navy sends me...
Vehicle:
1997 Legacy 2.5GT
QuickSilver Metallic

Default

I'm a firm believer in the thought than an engine needs to be put through its paces regularly to keep it healthy. There is absolutely nothing wrong with shifting at 4k or even higher - I often shift at 6k+ during normal driving. I bought a fun car to have fun with it, and Subaru's engineers designed the car to take much worse abuse than I heap upon it.

Oh, and idling a car for a few minutes when it's cold is unnecessary and probably does more harm than good. Start it, let the oil start pumpin' for maybe 30sec, then drive.

Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
Patrick Olsen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2003, 12:43 AM   #4
Subietonic
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12588
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Down by the sea
Vehicle:
Four Count 'em
GF5,BDA,BD5, BP5

Default

^^^^

Agreed! Well within normal range both cold and warmed up.

Br, Dale
Subietonic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2003, 12:51 AM   #5
dcoty
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 3149
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: montreal quebec
Vehicle:
01 V7 GC/R32 sky

Default

Yup I with you two...redlining the car or driving it hard is fine, it clears out carbon deposits as well. I rev to 8K on a daily basis.

Dan
dcoty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2003, 05:04 AM   #6
rbehny
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 1908
Join Date: Jul 2000
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: HR
Default

^^^ not even gonna go there.. *wishes he had enough money to go NA*

I drove my car harder than usual the other day and now i'm feeling guilty... Gonna go pamper her with a oil change and some other refreshers. Oh and using a higher octane than 87 does make a difference in smoothness/power wise since we were on the topic of getting on it hard...

rbehny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2003, 12:02 PM   #7
Compressed
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 12271
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Colorado
Vehicle:
2012 4Runner TE
KDSS!

Default

I fully agree with Patrick.

Idle upon cold start is not good, much better for the car to drive it very easily when cold to get the oil pressure up and ensure maximum lubrication.

I drive my cars hard, but I do so in an intelligent manner. Meaning, I know what the car is doing, I double clutch when down shifting to keep the trans happy. I dont hit the rev limiter, I am not jerky in my driving, rather I try to be as smooth as possible. As mentioned, hard driving will remove carbon deposits, this coupled with a catch can setup, will keep the top end and combustion chamber nice and clean.

Compressed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2003, 07:02 PM   #8
dcoty
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 3149
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: montreal quebec
Vehicle:
01 V7 GC/R32 sky

Default

You can drive a car as hard as you want, just do it smoothly, and double clutching is on the first page of my driving bible, I do it every down shift now, if feels weird not to now.

Dan
dcoty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2003, 09:41 PM   #9
ciper
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 15543
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: san francisco, ca
Vehicle:
90BJ Legacy LS ABS
AWD 946 Rio Red Jpn built

Default

I think that shifting at 2.5k is causing more damage than shifting at 4k. Why short shift the engine so far outside its optimum range? It takes more fuel and produces more stress on the bottom end at such low rpm.
ciper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2003, 03:38 AM   #10
DDMan
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 11221
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Rocklin, California
Vehicle:
2002 2.5 RS
Black as Midnight!!!

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by ciper
I think that shifting at 2.5k is causing more damage than shifting at 4k. Why short shift the engine so far outside its optimum range? It takes more fuel and produces more stress on the bottom end at such low rpm.
Because when you start the car, the oil pressure is low and you need to wait until the oil is up to normal pressure and operating temp before getting on it and shifting higher.
DDMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2003, 08:48 AM   #11
Tkacik
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 847
Join Date: Feb 2000
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Greensboro, Georgia
Vehicle:
'06 Titan Crew Cab
'08 Forester LL Bean

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Patrick Olsen
I'm a firm believer in the thought than an engine needs to be put through its paces regularly to keep it healthy. There is absolutely nothing wrong with shifting at 4k or even higher - I often shift at 6k+ during normal driving. I bought a fun car to have fun with it, and Subaru's engineers designed the car to take much worse abuse than I heap upon it.

Oh, and idling a car for a few minutes when it's cold is unnecessary and probably does more harm than good. Start it, let the oil start pumpin' for maybe 30sec, then drive.

Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
I put my 1.8 liter AWD L through its paces every single day...

Of course I have to though . . . On-ramps are sometimes interesting in this car
Tkacik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2003, 10:56 AM   #12
HndaTch627
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 6551
Join Date: May 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Carol Stream, IL
Vehicle:
'01 GC8 Dinged STM
'09 Concours 14 ABS Black

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by DDMan


Because when you start the car, the oil pressure is low and you need to wait until the oil is up to normal pressure and operating temp before getting on it and shifting higher.
that is 100% backwards, the oil pressure qhen you start the car is 100+ psi, once the vehicle is warmed up it drops to about 16-20 psi @ idle. the main reason is that the pistons are not warmed up and it's a great way to cause ecessive piston slap.

jeremy
HndaTch627 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2003, 11:31 AM   #13
Subietonic
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12588
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Down by the sea
Vehicle:
Four Count 'em
GF5,BDA,BD5, BP5

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by HndaTch627
that is 100% backwards, the oil pressure qhen you start the car is 100+ psi, once the vehicle is warmed up it drops to about 16-20 psi @ idle. the main reason is that the pistons are not warmed up and it's a great way to cause ecessive piston slap.

jeremy
You are correct sir! It's not the oil pressure that you necessarily want to be concerned with, although that is an important ingredient. It's the lubrication factor. Allowing the engine to properly warm at initial lower RPMs is a good thing... kind of like a cat getting ready; to move after lying down, everything gets gently "stretched" first. This allows for full warming/expansion, complete cylinder wall contact which facilitates better compression/combusion, etc. In a easy RPM warmup, coolant, oil, sensors, ECU all come up to speed together. And keep in mind that your coolant warms much faster than your oil so just because your temp gauge says the car is in the normal operating temperature, doesn't mean that the whole vehicle is completely warmed up. There's probably still time for the engine oil and tranny fluid to reach their normal operating temperature too. OBD-II, IIRC forces the engine to "heat" faster, but that still doesn't mean that the whole "system" is warm.

Once you've driven a couple of miles, unless it's dead of winter where you are, you should be good to go and hit that WOT switch that each of us craves to light off. Then to each their own driving style...

Br, Dale
Subietonic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2003, 12:55 PM   #14
Matt Monson
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 832
Join Date: Jan 2000
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Teh Ghetto Garage, CO
Vehicle:
99 2.5RS, '85 911
'73 914 and 2012 BRZ

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by dcoty
In my opinion:

You are fine, a 2,500 rpm shift when cold is fine. I am usually careful in the winter with cold starts (i let it sit for a few mins), but otherwise, dont worry. I normally shift at 3.5-4k as well. I would consider that normal driving if you ask me.

Keep on truckin'!

Dan
You Lie, you know you shift at your 8000rpm redline

But seriously, I drive my car hard every day. I never shift below 3000rpm,even when cold, because it feels like the engine struggles and bogs if I shift an lower. And once it is warm, I shift between 4-5k rpm all day long. 85k mi like than and never a problem.
Matt Monson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2003, 02:11 PM   #15
ciper
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 15543
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: san francisco, ca
Vehicle:
90BJ Legacy LS ABS
AWD 946 Rio Red Jpn built

Default

So can I take it that everyone just starts the car and instantly throws it into gear then?

Waiting until the temperature gauge has started to move before driving should be a normal habit.

Dont twist my response.
ciper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2003, 04:10 PM   #16
Matt Monson
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 832
Join Date: Jan 2000
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Teh Ghetto Garage, CO
Vehicle:
99 2.5RS, '85 911
'73 914 and 2012 BRZ

Default

you know what they say about assumptions...

I think what people are saying is they don't baby it during the warm up period. Sitting there until the gauge moves is a little overkill IMHO. In the summer, except for first thing in the am, it is so danged hot, the gauge never goes down. I usually wait about 2 minutes to let the oil start to flow and fully lubricate the engine, but I never look at the gauge.
In the winter, of course I warm it up, not to mention I can't see out the windows for at least five minutes anyways.
Matt Monson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2003, 04:57 PM   #17
IggDawg
Celebrity Guest Star
 
Member#: 10648
Join Date: Sep 2001
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Sort of Boston, MA
Vehicle:
1998 Acura CL... D:
Mostly kind of red

Default

I normally shift between 3-4k, and around 2.5-3k when it;s cold. After it's warm, I try to redline it at least once or twice. usually on an onramp or something like that. I think it helps keep the carbon gremlins away. the engine can certainly take it. so why not? I'm convinced the drivetrain is good to well over 6250 where the factory redline is at, bone stock.

-IggDawg
IggDawg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2003, 06:56 PM   #18
ciper
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 15543
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: san francisco, ca
Vehicle:
90BJ Legacy LS ABS
AWD 946 Rio Red Jpn built

Default

Matt Monson: "Sitting there until the gauge moves is a little overkill IMHO"

You say later in your post "about 2 minutes to let the oil start to flow and fully lubricate the engine"

It takes far less time for the gauge to start moving that 2 minutes even in 60 degree weather.

So your telling me that waiting for the gauge to move (taking 30-90 seconds) is overkill but waiting 120 seconds isnt
ciper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2003, 07:13 PM   #19
Matt Monson
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 832
Join Date: Jan 2000
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Teh Ghetto Garage, CO
Vehicle:
99 2.5RS, '85 911
'73 914 and 2012 BRZ

Default

you are taking me too literally. I guess I should have said a few minutes, but then you would have taken that as 3!!! I literally, get in the car, start the engine, pick up my coffee and put it in the cup holder, change the cd on the player and roll down the windows(always with the windows down ) and then I go.
Elapsed time-probably 37 seconds +/_. Next time I'll say a few seconds so the literal police don't arrest me.
Some people just take is way too personally when someone disagrees with their opinion.
Matt Monson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2003, 07:49 PM   #20
IggDawg
Celebrity Guest Star
 
Member#: 10648
Join Date: Sep 2001
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Sort of Boston, MA
Vehicle:
1998 Acura CL... D:
Mostly kind of red

Default

I give it around 30 seconds in the summer and longer in teh winter. usually more like a minute or two. as long as oil is circulating, there's no need to wait any longer. you want to have the engine under load so it's warming up qiuckly. with 5W30, it only takes a few moments in the summer to get the oil circulating. it takes a little longer in winter, but 5W30 is still really thin stuff. IIRC, synthetic fluid is nearly as thin in the winter as it is in the summer.

-IggDawg
IggDawg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-21-2003, 11:27 PM   #21
kturner
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 8225
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Corvallis, OR
Default

One factor I didn't see mentioned yet is throttle position. After a few seconds to let the oil circulate, it's OK to drive gently. But, I'd wait until the temp is up to go WOT. To me, that's more important than pure RPMs.
kturner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2003, 12:01 AM   #22
mike270
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12863
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Vehicle:
2002 2.5RS

Default

Wow!

This is the kind of discussion I was hoping for. A lot of good opinions and reasons on both sides.

Also, Is it a crime to my engine that in 10k miles I have never taken it over 5k rpm?
mike270 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2003, 12:24 AM   #23
Patrick Olsen
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 120
Join Date: Jul 1999
Chapter/Region: AKIC
Location: Where the Navy sends me...
Vehicle:
1997 Legacy 2.5GT
QuickSilver Metallic

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by mike270
Also, Is it a crime to my engine that in 10k miles I have never taken it over 5k rpm?
In my not so humble opinion, YES!!!!!

First, and I'll be a bit of a jerk here, why buy a sporty car if you're not going to use it as it was designed to be used? I know, I know, winding an engine up to redline is far from the only way to have fun in any sort of sporty car, but I still think that's a key factor in having fun in a fun car.

Second, my unscientific evidence shows that cars/engines that don't get wrung out regularly end up running like crap. I've driven cars belonging to friends and family members (Mom ) that just never see any significant load - no WOT, no high RPMs. When I drive the cars and actually wind 'em up a bit, I get knock and ping, and I think it's because the combustion chambers are gunked up. Again, that's just my unscientific opinion, based on a pretty small sample of cars, but I've certainly never had such problems with any of my cars.

Please, the next time you drive the car, once you've driven a ways to get it nicely warmed up, take it up the redline a couple times, bang off some quick shifts, have some fun dammit!!

Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
Patrick Olsen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2003, 12:49 AM   #24
mike270
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 12863
Join Date: Nov 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Vehicle:
2002 2.5RS

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Patrick Olsen

Please, the next time you drive the car, once you've driven a ways to get it nicely warmed up, take it up the redline a couple times, bang off some quick shifts, have some fun dammit!!
OK
mike270 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2003, 03:53 AM   #25
Andrew Bacon
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 2267
Join Date: Sep 2000
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: LA dentention core
Vehicle:
00RS
rutherforddesign.com

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by mike270
...Is it a crime to my engine that in 10k miles I have never taken it over 5k rpm?
On a stock EJ25, maximum torque is developed at 4,000 RPM.

Even with an intake, header, hi-flow cat, and full cat-back, the power curve is falling off by redline. I rev over 5.5K all the time when everything is at an even temperature, but it really is faster to just pull another gear than go to 6K+ IMO.

I think the real issue here is don't beat on it until the motor oil is at EQUAL or higher temperature to the coolant. This can take several minutes, even when it's warm out. And remember, the OEM temp gauge in newer Imprezas is a total liar. It won't go up from "normal" until you are at the brink of boiling, and it shows "normal" way before the motor is heated evenly.

Mike: I think the way you drive will foul your oil faster, develop some deposits in the exhaust, and that's it. Surely you are not going to wear things faster by driving it slower! If your'e not comfortable reving hard at WOT and pulling gears like you stole it, than don't. Ignore those that say you should.

Subietonic: "you should be good to go and hit that WOT switch that each of us craves to light off" I love the way you said that! hehehehe
Andrew Bacon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
GF8 STI block of the engine Mirone Car Care & Detailing 2 06-02-2010 08:35 AM
Magical devices that turn internal hard drives into external hard drives... Asinine Off-Topic 11 11-28-2006 11:44 AM
Hard drive the size of a quarter perret318 Off-Topic 17 03-16-2004 03:58 PM
How hard is it to pull the engine? StrongBad Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 7 03-31-2003 02:19 PM

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2016 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2016, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.