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Old 08-31-2003, 08:26 PM   #1
warpspeedwrx
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Default impreza vs integra type r?

How fast is a older impreza L/brighton with a 2.5 liter swap and minor mods such as header and catback? Will it be able to keep up with the type r?
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Old 08-31-2003, 09:36 PM   #2
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to be blunt. . .no. All you have w/ that swap is a L with a RS motor. The Type R came stock w/ like 195hp. I think it (type R)may be a bit lighter. From the factory, it ran mid-6's 0-60 and high-14's quarter mile. A RS will run 8 flat to 60 and 16 flat in the quarter. With a couple of mods aforementioned, you may shave a few tenths off, thats it. Now in the twisties, the type R will dust a RS, nevermind your L not having RS suspension goodies. So I wouldn't be putting up a pink slip in the near future. . .jk. Hope this long reply answers your question.
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Old 08-31-2003, 10:47 PM   #3
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i thought the earlier impreza L's weigh a little over 2400lbs that would be lighter than a type r at 2600lbs. say the full exhaust adds on 10-15 hp that would put the subie at 180hp. With the advantage of awd wouldnt the impreza beat the type r as far as 1/4mile performance. If not a set of cobb cams would help wouldnt it?
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Old 08-31-2003, 10:57 PM   #4
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Assuming that what you're racing really is a type R, no. However, keep in mind that there are very very very few real type R's in the States.
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Old 09-01-2003, 12:49 AM   #5
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okay, i have a 2.5 L. empty weight on the boat was 2550 pounds. I have headers, no cats, 2.25" exhaust all the way back. With fuel and me and everything its in the 2800 pound range or more. THe Type R still has more power and less weight. teh AWD also soaks up a lot more power. plus the 2.5L dies up high (exhaust helps) the type R doesnt even start working until 5 grand. Also the type R ca shift around 8200 where the impreza is shifting around 6500. Basucally with a mad AWD launch youde get him off the line but then your toast. Even with cobb cams the ITR will send you to school. And this is all assuming the type R is stock...
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Old 09-01-2003, 02:17 AM   #6
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okay lets look at the hard facts
type r:
hp-195
weight-2600
fwd
1/4 mile: 14.5-15.2 @92-95mph
impreza L w/ rs motor(165+10(headerback exh)+10-15(cobb cams)=185-190hp
weigh-2400-2600?
awd rules
Am i the only one that thinks the impreza will win the race?
Am i off by the power estimates and/or weight?
I figure a stock rs does mid to high 15's and with the mods it'll do low 15's to high 14's and with the 200 less lb of the impreza L i'll do mid 14's
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Old 09-01-2003, 03:04 AM   #7
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No offense, but I think most of us are realist here. And in this race I would have to agree that the L/ RS conversion wouldn't stand much a chance. Don't get me wrong I love my Subie and wouldn't give it up for anything, but the ITR is not a slouch...
Honda is a great company that designs well engineered vehicles, especially their race cars...and their derivatives..

Mid 14s for the conversion is very optomistic. Also 1/4 mi may not be the best suited for the subie. Say you put a wrx motor in .... thats another story..
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Old 09-01-2003, 03:32 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Digital_Bath
Assuming that what you're racing really is a type R, no. However, keep in mind that there are very very very few real type R's in the States.
There are just as few 98-01 RS's as there are Type-R's.

And I have to say yes, you will keep up with a Type-R.

How do I know? From experience.

An RS with just a full exhaust and Cobb intake can run a 15.1. Throw in a lightweight flywheel and a couple other smaller mods like porting/polishing the engine before install, some lightweight pulleys too, loose that 200lbs from the RS (an AWD 93-96 L weighs 2500-2600lbs not 2400lbs) and mid-high 14's should be readily availible.

As for handling, high or low speed, I had my first track day last wednesday and I had two Type-R's out there I was racing with. Neither was faster than my car in the corners even with tires comprable to mine (albiet I do have a full suspension with other smaller suspension mods) and the one that was a ton faster in the straights had quite a bit of engine mods as well. Granted I had my slow arse 1.8l engine, the other Type-R was only faster than my car overall due to the straights... If I had another 60hp (ala EJ25) I would have been much quicker and just as fast as the faster type-R.

Autocross wise, my car is as fast as a stock type-R with a decent driver. A good driver running race tires, im about 2 seconds slower in a minute course, but thats not much being down so badly on HP numbers...

All this being said, you need to be a good driver with a good handling setup along with the engine and the lighter weight to do it.

However, I did enjoy scaring the bajesus out of the really fast Type-R that passed me on Thunderhill in the corners as I stayed right on his hiney through some really tight S-curves that he completely blew and did some dirt exploring
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Old 09-01-2003, 03:40 AM   #9
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Back when my 2.5TS had only intake and full exhaust no cats I would run equal times to a type R with intake and a catback at our 1000ft dragstrip. An L-RS conversion should have a good 300 pound advantage over me.
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Old 09-01-2003, 07:24 AM   #10
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type R will destroy our subaru
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Old 09-01-2003, 09:45 AM   #11
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yeah, i don't think you'll have much of a chance against a type r, we'd have to do more then exhaust/intake to keep up

then you've got to consider how cheap mods are for a type r, a good turbo kit is only 2500 bucks for them, about 4200 for us, same goes for everything else

now the thing you'd have to look out for is i'm seeing turboed integra's becoming more and more common around me, never saw one for the longest time, but over the past year i've seen a few showing up, looking stock other then the exhaust
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Old 09-01-2003, 11:51 AM   #12
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it would prolly keep up with an ITR if it didn't have th eAWD drivetrain to turn. it helps on the launch, but hinders for the other 1410 feet. it soaks up power to turn the hardware, and then it has raw weight.

Imprezas weren't meant for the dragstrip. they were pretty much purpose built, and that wasn't teh purpose. you will destroy an ITR at rallycross. just no prayer, unless there is a huge difference in driver skill. like he's several years seasoned and you;ve never driven an impreza before. you have great abilities in auto-x if you're a good driver. you can get on the throttle much earlier in turns, etc. once the turns are more spread out like in a road course, the ITR will start gaining advantage. mostly because of the parasitic drag of teh AWD system. BUT, you still have all that weight down low, and an engine that has a wonderful position in the engine bay (at least from a handling standpoint).

it's just not so black-and-white a comparison.

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Old 09-01-2003, 01:02 PM   #13
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So here's my little piece of (mis)information. I was talking with the previous owner of my car yesterday. He told me a story about running against a Type R at a ProSolo event. The cars were in a stock class, the RS has Koni adjustables. AWD won the launch. About 3/4 down the straight VTEC kicked in and the Type R caught up quickly. Going into the twisty sections of track things were fairly even. Then there was a fairly long steady state curve. The RS did its big body roll trick and lost a lot of ground to the Type R. On the return through the slalom the RS made up its lost ground. The cars were within a tenth of each other across the line, and of course the only part of the story I can't remember is which car was first.

It seems that the Type R is much better suited to a longer straight, and is better equipped to handle a relatively long steady state curve. As for quick transitions and acceleration from low to mid RPMs the RS has the advantage.

<sarcasm>Now take my gospel and tell it from the mountain, for I speak the one truth.</sarcasm>

Of course this is a description of one run at an event that I didn't attend and there is no way to say that both drivers were at their peak for the run. For all we know the Type R driver got off beat in the slalom and had to slow down just to stay on track.
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Old 09-01-2003, 09:26 PM   #14
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I think this is a lot closer then most people here are estimating. My brothers stock GSR and my COBB inatke/tanabe cat-back are about the same in the quarter. With that extra weight loss and a full hearder back it will basically come down to the drivers.
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Old 09-01-2003, 09:55 PM   #15
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an ITR shoudl have its way with any non turbo's GM/GC. midway thru second u'll begin to see the ITR catch up and then pass u. thats assuming the driver is not a tool.

the only way an RS or swapped L will stay even or beat them is with build up that will benefit performance cams.

but then again, when it snows that ITR will ned a map to find u. and they need more wheel gap!
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Old 09-02-2003, 03:31 AM   #16
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Actually I found my AWD was a big benifit in high speed corners. I could pretty much just stay on the gas the whole corner and turn the car, getting a slight power-on oversteer (which was the first time I ever had that happen with my car out on that track day I mentioned). The other thing about our AWD system is that you can take a really shiety line through a road course and still be just as fast as someone driving a perfect line in a comparibly equiped FWD/RWD car.
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Old 09-02-2003, 09:13 AM   #17
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Does anyone know how much HP each differential eats, if any?

If it were 5HP, for arguements sake, then a one differental FWD would have a 10HP at-the-wheels advantage over an equally powered three differential AWD. In other words, a 195HP Type R would be getting 190HP at the wheels, while the 190HP Impreza L would be getting 175HP at-the-wheels.
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Old 09-02-2003, 11:33 AM   #18
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ITRs have nice limited slips that really hold the tires to the ground during clutch drops at higher rpms. Don't expect to get much of a jump if you racing against an experienced driver. Those cars are much easier to launch properly then our AWD cars with sensative trannies are.

A modded impreza with a lightened flywheel and stiffer clutch may be able to hang with a type R if launched properly.
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Old 09-02-2003, 11:43 AM   #19
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"impreza L w/ rs motor(165+10(headerback exh)+10-15(cobb cams)=185-190hp"
No way!!! Without a CAI on there, the engine will not breath enough to put out that kind of numbers. Also, remeber that different mods adds HP in different areas of the power curve so you can't just add them up. The headers help the low end while the cams help more on the top. Realistically, you are probably looking at more like 180hp peak HP around 5500rpm without the intake. With the intake, that 190+hp is more reasonable, but it still won't let you beat an ITR!!!
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Old 09-02-2003, 10:57 PM   #20
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Default ITR vs. Impreza

I'm assuming that the Impreza is an RS here, modded to ~180hp. Same experienced driver in both car.
Drag Strip: ITR
Road Course: ITR
Auto-x with long highspeed sections: ITR
Auto-x with lots of tighter, twisty sections: Impreza, but the ITR will definetly give it a good run for the money
Rally-x: Impreza
Tarmac rally course with really bad pavement, undulations, off-camber corners, and a bit of gravel thrown into it somewhere: Impreza
Snow: Impreza!

Each car suits its intended design. Basically the Impreza has three things going against it compared to the ITR.
A) "Truckish engine" Heck, it's a torquy beast down low, but can't do much up high. A Clydesdale (sp?) doesn't compete with a thoroughbred, but you don't see thoroughbred horses pulling heavy loads.
B) AWD drivetrain is not as efficient than a simpler FWD drive train. Parasitic loss - plain and simple. Can't beat the forces of physics.
C) Low gearing - good for its get-up and go, but the RS's gearing is very low. If Subaru did change the gearing a bit so that 0-60mph would be covered in 2nd gear, I bet you the RS would have a more competitive time, but alas, the people at FHI decided to stick in low gearing with a low-ratio rear diff.

That's about it. Would I trade my RS in for an ITR? HECK NO! My car does its job well for me. I'd hate to drive an ITR in stop-and-go traffic. It's gutless before the VTEC cams clue in. :monkey:

LaterZ!
Darren!!
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Old 09-03-2003, 10:01 AM   #21
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On a road course, you're going to be toast. My 01 RS with 150 lbs removed put the car at 2701 with no driver. I had brakes upgraded and the car lower by 1.5" with 50% stiffer springs and on the track, instructors group, another instructor with a stock type R is 3-4 seconds a lap faster. Also look at classifications. RS is in SSB (stock) and R type is SSA (stock). The lower weight in your L will help, but that high reving Honda engine makes it like an old E30 M3 vs an E30 325i. No contest there (I had an M3).

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Old 09-03-2003, 10:16 AM   #22
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So which would win the old E30 M3 or new E30 325?
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Old 09-03-2003, 02:23 PM   #23
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I love my 2001 RS, but the Type R is a quicker car. It has more horsepower, less weight, and is better balanced. The Type R was practically made to be a race car.
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Old 09-03-2003, 03:19 PM   #24
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Quote:
The Type R was practically made to be a race car.
True, but in my opinion Type R owners didn't get very much bang for the buck. Brand new and a sticker of around $25,000 isn't a very good deal for what you get. Mid to high 14's isn't really that fast to be a race car, although respectable on the street. I just don't dig the price, no A/C, and the label that goes with buying a Acura/Honda. For the money the WRX is 10x a better car, but I know this isn't the issue here.

So, what happened in the race, or was there actually going to be a race?

-Charles-
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Old 09-03-2003, 03:26 PM   #25
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Charles,
It is kinda hard to compare a MY01 ITR to a WRX from a pricing standpoint because prices have changed as a result, in part because of flucuations in the yen. But when SCC tested the RSX head to head with a WRX is was far from a 10x better decision in the WRX's favour. They are all pretty awesome cars for the $$$ with different niches that they excel in.
Of course, I would choose a WRX, but like most of us here I'm a little AWD biased. And I like the dirt.
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