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Old 10-02-2003, 05:18 PM   #51
WRXIN
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I might as well throw in my recent experience and add to the confusion.

Before changing my tranny oil, I was experiencing the very annoying first gear block. There were times when I just couldnt get into first gear, no grinding, just wouldnt go in. I'm not a former Honda owner (not exactly sure what that has to do with anything) and I'm old enough to have a bunch of good driving experience in many different cars...

Anyhow, three days ago I invested in 4 quarts of Mobil 1 Synthetic 75w90 (almost $40 for this...). Result? Shifts nice and smooth with little resistance, no more first gear block BUT now I grind when going into first now and then, even when totally stopped. I'm not one of these guys trying to shift into 1st at 20mph, I'm trying from a dead stop.

At this stage I can either live with the grinding or go back to a non-syn oil of some kind. Not sure what to do yet.

-Mark
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Old 10-02-2003, 05:25 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by WRXIN
I might as well throw in my recent experience and add to the confusion.

Before changing my tranny oil, I was experiencing the very annoying first gear block. There were times when I just couldnt get into first gear, no grinding, just wouldnt go in. I'm not a former Honda owner (not exactly sure what that has to do with anything) and I'm old enough to have a bunch of good driving experience in many different cars...

Anyhow, three days ago I invested in 4 quarts of Mobil 1 Synthetic 75w90 (almost $40 for this...). Result? Shifts nice and smooth with little resistance, no more first gear block BUT now I grind when going into first now and then, even when totally stopped. I'm not one of these guys trying to shift into 1st at 20mph, I'm trying from a dead stop.

At this stage I can either live with the grinding or go back to a non-syn oil of some kind. Not sure what to do yet.

-Mark
try what i did... go to autozone and get some pennzoil syncromesh MT fluid. drain out a half-quart or so of the m1 and top off with the pennzoil. it's about the same price as the m1.

this stuff truly does wonders for the syncros. at least in my case, it did.

jm2c
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Old 10-02-2003, 05:28 PM   #53
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Thanks Ride5000. I'll try that tonight and post my results. I hate the idea of throwing away $40 worth of syn oil...
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Old 10-02-2003, 05:38 PM   #54
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Pennzoil Synchromesh is a fluid that appears to be similar in design to RedLine MTL, except designed to meet GM transmission specs.

It is a 80w gear oil and not GL rated at all.

I would mix in RedLine MT-90 in my car before that stuff.
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Old 10-02-2003, 05:46 PM   #55
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Three wagon owners in the same little thread, how about those odds?

Thanks Drees, I guess I'll go by a few stores on the way home and see what my options are.

Is that Redline MT-90 available in any autoparts stores?
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Old 10-02-2003, 07:16 PM   #56
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Plenty of wagons to go around, I see almost as many wagons as sedans around here...

Redline is carried by a few places, but not all. Best bet is to either check Redline's website, or to call up a few places before stopping.
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Old 10-02-2003, 09:58 PM   #57
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pennzoil/gm syncromesh fluid has a long history. i've never heard of a tranny failure from using it, even at 100%. it's not gl rated because it doesn't have to be.. it's a "special order" fluid. i think looking down your nose at it because it's cheap, readily available, and non-synthetic is foolhardy.

you can spend a lot of energy/time/money on finding and procuring redline, or you can use the stuff that's available practically everywhere, and that at least one person (me) has actually tried and attested to its efficacy (if i keep slow pressure going into 1st i can get in @ 25mph--no fancy footwork). it's up to you. i can only tell you that i have no need whatsoever to pursue exotic fluids for my mt.

ymmv and all that,
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Old 10-02-2003, 11:54 PM   #58
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in addition...
if you read the first post in this thread you will see that a GL rating is just that - a rating. in order to GET the rating in the first place an oil must go through the tests and "certifications" if you will to be able to claim GL rating whatever. it's like THX, something might sound as good as, if not better, than a THX certified system but you don't KNOW for sure of its quality until you hear it for yourself. now that's oversimplification of course. no normal person can go through all the rigors of GL testing of the pennzoil / GM synchromesh fluid. it comes down to comfort of the person, really. if someone won't settle for anything other than GL5 but wants the peace of mind of having synthetic and doesn't want to grind gears TOO bad, they might go with redline 75W90NS. if someone wants something vouched for by someone else, doesn't mind necessarily of a GL rating and wants a very low possibility of 2-1 grinding they might go with the pennzoil / GM stuff. it comes down to preference.

it's all about educating yourself on what's important and what everything means which gets back to the main reason i created this thread. educate yourself and make your own decisions. sometimes you learn the hard way (like me spending over $80 in a 3 week period on gear oil); or do the homework, compile testimonials, learn the numbers, learn the ratings, learn the risks, weigh them, and make a decision. it's as simple as that.

-Jason
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Old 10-03-2003, 12:38 AM   #59
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This may have been suggested before but it might be helpful if there were a way for people to report their experiences with the various gear oils in an easy to read format.

There are many ways to do this -- maybe there could be individual threads devoted to each type of oil. Then there might be a standard format for people to rate the various concerns like: 1>2 shifts, 2>1 shifts, shifting into 1rst when cold, general smoothness, noise, better or worse than stock oil, etc.

I'm just brainstorming. Hopefully someone can come up with a better idea. I don't know about anyone else, but it is hard for me to keep up with all the various posts -- pro and con -- about the diferent types of oil, not to mention the different blends people have come up with.
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Old 10-03-2003, 12:44 AM   #60
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Yeah i have to agree, i put the Neo and it had problems that I didnt like. So i switched back to stock fluid.

I am happier now. shifts arent as smooth.

But basically your tranny is known for weakness, faster shift mean more stress on the tranny. And being thinner(which helps you shift faster) but is not good for the gears, the gears slam together harder.

you cant get into first because your not supposed to. It wasnt designed to do that so therefore probably isnt good idea on a stock gearbox.

Just a thought
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Old 10-03-2003, 01:26 AM   #61
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"you cant get into first because your not supposed to. It wasnt designed to do that so therefore probably isnt good idea on a stock gearbox."

FWIW: I have over 50,000 miles on my WRX and I have absolutely no problem shifting into 1rst at any speed up to 25-30 mph. There seems to be a significant variation among Subaru's 5MT trannys.

The only trouble I have is when trying to shift into 1rst when the tranny is cold.
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Old 10-03-2003, 02:43 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by ride5000
pennzoil/gm syncromesh fluid has a long history. i've never heard of a tranny failure from using it, even at 100%. it's not gl rated because it doesn't have to be.. it's a "special order" fluid. i think looking down your nose at it because it's cheap, readily available, and non-synthetic is foolhardy.

you can spend a lot of energy/time/money on finding and procuring redline, or you can use the stuff that's available practically everywhere, and that at least one person (me) has actually tried and attested to its efficacy (if i keep slow pressure going into 1st i can get in @ 25mph--no fancy footwork). it's up to you. i can only tell you that i have no need whatsoever to pursue exotic fluids for my mt.
If you think I'm foolhardy because I would strongly recommend AGAINST using a Xw80 weight oil (like Pennzoil Synchromesh or RedLine MTL), that's your perrogative. You should also try out some of that 0w20 engine oil, too.

I have nothing against inexpensive gear oils, in fact, it seems that standard non-synthetic GL-5 gear oil works best in a lot of people's transmissions.

As far as ratings go, if all you care about is smooth shifting, dump some 20W50 motor oil in the tranny. It will shift great, but don't come crying when you synchros, bearings and gears start falling apart.
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Old 10-03-2003, 02:47 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally posted by avatarr
(like me spending over $80 in a 3 week period on gear oil)
LOL, that's nothing! I've spent about $120 on gear oil looking for the perfect one. Still haven't found it. I will keep running what I've got for at least another 10k miles as it's working fine, but who knows what I'll try next.

If only we knew why Subaru specs a GL-5 in their transaxles, then we could rest easy and run a GL-4 which shifts very well and sleep easy at night.
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Old 10-03-2003, 07:45 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by drees
If you think I'm foolhardy because I would strongly recommend AGAINST using a Xw80 weight oil (like Pennzoil Synchromesh or RedLine MTL), that's your perrogative. You should also try out some of that 0w20 engine oil, too.

I have nothing against inexpensive gear oils, in fact, it seems that standard non-synthetic GL-5 gear oil works best in a lot of people's transmissions.

As far as ratings go, if all you care about is smooth shifting, dump some 20W50 motor oil in the tranny. It will shift great, but don't come crying when you synchros, bearings and gears start falling apart.
let me ask you... have YOU tried the syncromesh fluid?

have YOU seen direct evidence of a GLS rated fluid causing failure of a subaru MT5 transmission?

have YOU also seen the kind of performance one could expect from a mixture like 20/80 syncromesh/gl5 synthetic?

quit comparing it to engine oil... it's not. it is manual transmission gear oil. there are PLENY of testimonials on this board and others as to how well it works, in many different types of applications. until you have some first hand experience with it, stop talking out of your hat.

jm2c
ken
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Old 10-03-2003, 08:26 AM   #65
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Quote:
Since the manual doesn't have this, am I to assume that the Transmission oil also lubricates the front differential? Perhaps this is why subaru recommends a GL-5 oil in the tranny.
That is exactly why Subaru recommends GL-5. The trans and the front final drive, which is a hypoid gearset, share fluid. Subaru, and most manufacturers, feels the hypoid gearset requires GL-5. Unfortunatly, the transmission doesn't. We can't do a whole lot about that since it shares fluid. You either put your final drive set in question by using a GL-4 lubricant, which does not have the required high pressure additives... or you put your synchro's in question by using a GL-5 fluid, which is known to be corrosive to brass.

About hypoid gearsets...
Quote:
The off-set gear intersection design in hypoid differentials requires a high degree of extreme pressure chemistry to prevent scoring of the ring and pinion set under high-speed conditions and spalling under low-speed / high-torque conditions.
This is what Redline has to say about synchro corrosion and their lubes...
Quote:
A corrosive gear oil can shorten synchronizer life by half and can also contribute to rust problems. Red Line Gear Oils are designed to provide synchro and bushing compatibility and to prevent rust even when water is present.
In talking with Dave Granquist, Redline's tech guru, he recommended using the 75W90NS to provide the proper extreme pressure protection the front final drive requires. He also said he had never seen a synchro failure due to corrossion caused by a GL-5 lube. His thrid point was that automakers have a whole lot of R&D time into their cars and components. They create specifications for a reason and internet banter and hearsay is no reason to sway from their requirements.

I guess you can take that with a grain of salt, but here was a guy who could pimp any one of his gear oils and recommend its purchase, but recommended 75W90NS.

I use 75W90NS. It crunches every now and again... but not any more than it did with the stock dino oil. It shifts much better both warm and espically cold. I can downshift to 1st at 20+ MPH... but I could also do that with both the stock and the Redline fluid. I guess YMMV. If you don't like synthetic gear lubes, don't use them. Spending hundreads of dollars isn't going to find you your "magic" fluid that shifts like a breeze.

I have thought of doing a 50/50 mix of MT-90 and 75W90NS to try and give some extreme pressure additives of the GL-5 to the GL-4 oil... but I'm not particularly offended with how GL-5 is working right now.
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Old 10-03-2003, 11:30 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by ride5000
let me ask you... have YOU tried the syncromesh fluid?

have YOU seen direct evidence of a GLS rated fluid causing failure of a subaru MT5 transmission?

have YOU also seen the kind of performance one could expect from a mixture like 20/80 syncromesh/gl5 synthetic?
No, and I don't care to as long as my transmission is under warranty. If Subaru hears that you've used a non-GL-5 rated oil and something in the tranny needs to be warrantied, that's an expensive repair that you've now got to pay for. If you're willing to pay for any tranny problems on my WRX, I'll happily try out the Synchromesh.
Quote:
Originally posted by ride5000
quit comparing it to engine oil... it's not. it is manual transmission gear oil. there are PLENY of testimonials on this board and others as to how well it works, in many different types of applications. until you have some first hand experience with it, stop talking out of your hat.
Fine, but it's the first time I've heard someone recommend the Synchromesh fluid (and I've been reading the board for a year now). Just trying to warn people of the potential pitfalls of using the wrong fluid which makes your tranny feel good.
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Old 10-07-2003, 10:04 PM   #67
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One thing I've found out to be certain is that Mobil 1 is too slippery- 2->1 shifting was becoming nightmarish- even w/ double clutching and proper rev matching. I decided to try what several have recommedned - Redline shockproof (lightweight is what I put in). The difference was truly night and day, 2->1 shifting is a pleasure. I've got 4000 miles w/ the shcokproof and all is still well. I was going to try NEO RHD but heard from several people it was not working for them (and it really costs an arm and a leg). I'll probably switch to shockproof superlight for winter duty and back to lightweight for summer duty.

Sticking w/ shockproof until convinced otherwise.

Big Sky
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Old 10-08-2003, 12:22 AM   #68
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I switched to Motul 300V (synthetic) 75W-90 about 3k (not sure at the moment w/o looking it up) ago, in both trans and rear diff. The only really significant difference I've seen is that if I'm sitting at a stoplight (or a RallyX start line ) in neutral and try to put the clutch in and immediately shift to 1st it will grind - but it will go into gear. With the stock fluid it would simply not shift into gear that soon after the clutch was depressed.

However, I've never had any significant trans/shifting issues in 43k miles - other than getting into reverse from stopped, especially when cold, but I can deal with that. Come to think of it I used to encounter this shifting to 1st, but don't recall it being much of an issue after the Motul switch.

I've always been able to double clutch my way into 1st at any speed up to the max for 1st (~40 mph) as long as I did my part correctly. Very useful on the occasional RallyX course that's open enough for 2nd gear . (That said I habitually double clutch every downshift; I'd have to think about it to not do it )

We'll see how it is in another 10k miles or so...
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Old 10-08-2003, 12:57 AM   #69
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I switched from OEM trans oil to Redline MT90 at about 10,000 ... because I was going drag racing and I wanted faster up shifts. The MT90 was excellent ... easy 2 to 1 down shifts ... but after doing my stint of drag races I wanted to go back to a GL5 dino oil ... since I figured MT90 would not be great for my gear box/front differential in the long term.

I had my transmission oil changed to a GL5 dino oil at EZ Lube ... unfortunately I didn't pay attention to exactly which oil they used ... although the use Mobil oils. They talked me into getting an additive ... that they insisted was recommended by Subaru.

This Additive was Smart Blend Semi-Synthetic Limited Slip Differential Supplement ... a friction modifier ... as in less friction.

I don't know what I was thinking ... but when I got home ... I realized ... wait a moment ... my WRX doesn't even have a front limited slip! I got in touch with EZ Lube managment ... and they said that it was surely correct to add the $3 additive for my own protection. Well the additive actually cost $20 ... and the manufacturer agree with me that my WRX definitely DID NOT need there supplement! EZ Lube said they would look into it ...

While at a Subaru dealership I talked to the shop manager ... and he also said that I should change oil and get rid of the supplement ... but ALSO POINTED OUT THAT ALL WHEEL DRIVE VEHICLES SHOULD HAVE THE SAME LUBE CHARACTERISTIC IN BOTH FRONT AND REAR DIFFERENTIALS. I thought that was a great point ... made real sense!!!

So that is one thing that everyone should keep in mind when playing around with their transmission/front differential lubes!

I had the Subaru dealership change both my front and rears to the matching OEM oil ... not sure what they used unfortunately.

I told EZ Lube what "Subaru" had told me ... and they finally and immediately refunded to me the money I had spent with them on the transmission oil change plus that supplement.

But I have to say that with the OEM lubes ... my 2nd to 1st shifts aren't as easy as with the MT90 (relatively high friction lube) or with that friction reducing supplement!!! Go figure ....
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Old 10-08-2003, 01:33 AM   #70
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Why would it be important to have the same gear oil in the transaxle and the rear diff? Just curious.
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Old 10-08-2003, 01:40 AM   #71
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I guess just like having equal diameter tires with AWD ... you should have the same lube "coefficient" in the front and rear differential ... otherwise the differentials are "fighting" each other ....
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Old 10-08-2003, 01:47 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by makofoto
I guess just like having equal diameter tires with AWD ... you should have the same lube "coefficient" in the front and rear differential ... otherwise the differentials are "fighting" each other ....
no man you got the wrong picture of how the subaru AWD system works.

the gear oil in the rear diff is only affecting how the left rear and right rear tires react to each other and will have 0 effect on how the other two transmissions (center and front) will drive the remaining two tires (front right and front left).

You can have Bertolli Extra Virgin Olive OilŪ in the back and it won't affect your front diff.

Last edited by nhluhr; 10-08-2003 at 01:52 AM.
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Old 10-08-2003, 01:54 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by sajohnson
Why would it be important to have the same gear oil in the transaxle and the rear diff? Just curious.
The only technical reason I know of is that both ends have similar gears/bearings in the diff area. These areas typically need to withstand very high pressures, GL-5 oils have an EP additive which protects the gears and bearings, but unfortunately these same additives can make synchros not work as well.

What is interesting is that while Subaru specs a GL-5 in the transaxle, other manufactures (Honda, Toyota) spec a GL-4 or motor oil in their front-drive transaxles.
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Old 10-08-2003, 03:17 AM   #74
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[quote]Originally posted by fastnoypi
[b]

the clutch shudder is a different issue here...as a car introduced to the US as rally breed..the 02 comes OEM equipped with Exceedy clutches[quote]

Is this true???????
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Old 10-08-2003, 09:54 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by drees

What is interesting is that while Subaru specs a GL-5 in the transaxle, other manufactures (Honda, Toyota) spec a GL-4 or motor oil in their front-drive transaxles.
The difference is most other cars have a transverse mounted engine, therefore do not have a 90 degree directional shift for the power. The design of the front differential on the Subaru is unlike any front-wheel drive transaxle (and most 4wd systems I've seen).
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