Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Monday November 24, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Transmission (AT/MT) & Driveline

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-08-2003, 12:04 PM   #76
drees
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 25905
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: San Diego, CA
Vehicle:
2003 Silver Wagon
Tuned with Enginuity

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by fliz
The difference is most other cars have a transverse mounted engine, therefore do not have a 90 degree directional shift for the power. The design of the front differential on the Subaru is unlike any front-wheel drive transaxle (and most 4wd systems I've seen).
Duh, why didn't I think of that.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
drees is offline  
Old 10-08-2003, 06:40 PM   #77
JDMSubaru
Visiting NASIOC Timeout
 
Member#: 40546
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: California
Default

I've asked several local Subaru dealerships' service departments and many of them state that they use Valvoline for their transmission fluid on all the AT and MT's that they service.

I have taken their word for it and used it too. I only buy Valvoline (non-synthetic) GL-5 75W90 and have since been impressed. The shifting is smooth. I deliberately avoided synthetic because I've heard they have been known to cause compatibility issues. I don't like Redline because it does not have it's API certification--this is important because the owner's manual tells you to use a transmission fluid with said designation.

I also used Redline personally on my MT 02 Honda Civic and was very dissappointed. It made my shifts so sluggish (and the car become considerably slower from this) that I went to the dealership shortly after, bought the OEM fluid and changed it back to stock.

Valvoline 75W90 is for certain (at least for me) a heavenly experience in my 03 WRX MT. I'd suggest people to give theirs a try and it's reasonably priced at $3.50 a quart. The only place I have been able to find this at is Kragen but you may also find it elsewhere. Whoever hasn't, give it a shot.
JDMSubaru is offline  
Old 10-09-2003, 01:07 PM   #78
MrHorspwer
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4063
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Michigan
Default

Quote:
this is important because the owner's manual tells you to use a transmission fluid with said designation
That's not true. The manual says to use an API grade lubricant of a recommended SAE weight. It does not specifically mention using only an API certified lubricant (which is designated by API's "starburst" symbol). Redline, nor Amsoil or any other *true* synthetic oil producer, is API-certified. I say *true* because I don't believe that Group III base stocks are synthetic.

Group III bases are basically modified dino oils. They are cracked and processed to the point where they are synthetic in the means that they could not occure naturally... but they still use a hydrocarbon base. This is what you buy at Pep Boys... Mobile 1 (though they advertise using Group IV PAO's in their addative package, the base is Group III), Castrol Syntec, etc. are all Group III. Amsoil has even changed their traditional Group IV basestock to a Group III in some oils (XP7500 I think).

Why downgrade to a Group III?

Because it is uber-expensive to obtain API certification for anything higher than Group III. Amsoil could not do it and remain competitive with the Mobil 1's of the world... so they made an API certified Group III to compete. This cost is why Redline and all of the other Amsoil's are not API certified. It simply is not feasable to obtain the API certification and make a profit without charging outrageous amounts of money. Redline uses a polyester base, which is actually a Group V base. Group V bases fit into the "all other" catagory because of their wide ranging applications and formulations. How could the API even certify a Group V based oil if it can't even fit it into a generalized base catagory?

What about the oils from overseas like Motul? API is the American Petrolium Institute. It does exsist overseas... how can you certify them? Subaru's use Motul in Europe just fine and it's not API certified. These cars use the same engine and transmission components we use.


Yes, I have heard from many individuals that certain synthetics and Honda transmissions do not work well together. I have also heard of people with Honda's using GM Synchromesh and having very good luck. Synchromesh certainly isn't mentioned in Honda's owners manual
MrHorspwer is offline  
Old 10-09-2003, 01:33 PM   #79
WRXIN
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 15405
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: OC, CA
Vehicle:
2004 STI
Silver/Gold - Team Blew

Default

MrHorspwer,

It sounds like you know your stuff, so what kind of tranny fluid are you running?

I posted much earlier in this thread that I just switched to Mobil 1 75W90 synthetic. I don't block first gear nearly as much as I used to and shifting is generally smoother, but I do grind first a lot more often, and that's from a dead stop, not rolling and trying to force it.

Thanks for the great explanation!

-Mark
WRXIN is offline  
Old 10-09-2003, 04:44 PM   #80
MrHorspwer
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4063
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Michigan
Default

I run Redline 75W90NS. I don't notice any difference in shift, good or bad, except when cold, then it shifts MUCH better. I haven't had bad luck with it and am sticking to it. As it always seems, your mileage may vary.
MrHorspwer is offline  
Old 10-09-2003, 05:58 PM   #81
ride5000
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:
2003 GGA MBP
12.9 / 105+

Default

let's put all this in perspective, shall we?

how many MT gearsets out there croaked from lack of sufficient lubrication? let's even make the net bigger, and say how many MT5s out there just plain old "wore out."

for a larger database, hit the UK and AUS boards, and see what they have to say. draw your own conclusions.

jm2c
ken

ps. if you honestly think you have a tranny warrantee maybe you haven't been paying attention. if and when my MT goes, you can be sure i won't waste my time pissing into the wind at the dealership, and you can be damned sure it wasn't because i filled with 30% of a GLS rated lube.
ride5000 is offline  
Old 10-10-2003, 08:58 AM   #82
MrHorspwer
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4063
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Michigan
Default

I'm sure none of this will matter because you have already made up your mind that I know nothing because I disagree with you.

Quote:
Do you work for either of those companies?
I am an independent Redline distributor. That certainly doesn't make me an expert on how their company does business, but I've been dealing with Redline for a few years now.

Quote:
How can you say they did not get that certification because they could not afford it--or because it would force them to raise prices dramatically?
I can only recount my personal experiences. I have had many conversations with Redline's tech advisor. I know quite a few Amsoil distributors too. Even Amsoil says the same about API certification... it's too expensive for anything above Group III base's.

http://www.amsoil.com/articlespr/article_xl7500.htm

This is a tech Q & A from Amsoil that was also sent to their distributors because people were questioning why they went to an "inferior" Group III base stock. The rumor was that all their oils went to a Group III base, which is not true, as the Q & A explains.

For those that do't want to read it...
Quote:
In order to obtain API SL/ILSAC GF-3 certification and still remain cost-competitive with the other oils sold at retail oil change outlets, we had to change to Group III basestocks. To obtain API certification with our top tier basestocks would have priced our Dealers out of the market.
Redline's claims on the issue hold up to what Amsoil wrote in the tech article... it's too expensive. I would be willing to bet that if you called up NEO, they'd tell you the same thing since they aren't API-certified either.

I'm sure this is all "make believe bull#$@*", as you say. It's all a big conspiracy of the synthetic oil makers who bring an inferior, uncertified, overpriced product to the table and try to pull the wool over the consumers eyes by making false statements and writing false documents

I'm not trying to be "longwinded" or "dogmatic", I'm just trying to bring what I know as correct information to the table for other people to research if they choose to. If they find my statements to be false... I'm an ass and don't listen to me ever again. If you find them helpful in making a decision... you're welcome.
MrHorspwer is offline  
Old 10-10-2003, 12:14 PM   #83
makofoto
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 25243
Join Date: Sep 2002
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: South Pasadena, CA
Vehicle:
2006 Legacy Outback
Blue

Default

MrHorsePwer ... thanks for all of your interesting insider information!

I really liked MT90 ... only used it for a few 1,000 miles while playing around with dragracing ... gave me excellent synchro action.

How do you feel about using this lube for longer periods in a street car (WRX)?

Would it be O.K. to mix a bit of it with my OEM Valvoline MT oil ...

Last edited by makofoto; 10-10-2003 at 01:13 PM.
makofoto is offline  
Old 10-10-2003, 12:46 PM   #84
WRXIN
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 15405
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: OC, CA
Vehicle:
2004 STI
Silver/Gold - Team Blew

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by JDMSubaru


So, because I wrote so longwindedly and dogmatically in my above response to Mr. Horsepower, does that qualify me as, 'sounding like I know what I'm talking about as well'?
Nope, not really.

And now, back to a constructive conversation.

MrHorspwer, you mentioned you are a Redline distributor. I found the following description of a few Redline products. You say you use Redline 75W90NS but it doesnt seem to be recommended for LSDs? From the descriptions below, it appears that Redline 75W90 Gear Oil is a good choice. What do you think?

Redline MTL -- Great for manual transmissions, hot or cold. A 70W80 GL-4 gear oil for use in manual transmissions on both street and track. Provides excellent protection of gears, synchronizers, and bushings. Shifts well when cold and allows for fast shifts when warm.

Redline 75W90 Gear Oil -- A GL-5+ and GL-6 spec oil, preferred for use in conventional and LSD differentials. Contains limited-slip friction modifiers for decreased noise and better wear from clutch-type LSD units. Suitable for street and track.

Redline 75W90NS Gear Oil -- A GL-5 oil, designed for conventional differentials, but can be used in clutch-type LSD units for increased locking rates, leading to reduced wheelspin. Not recommended for street-driven LSD units!

Redline MT-90 -- A 75W90 GL-4 gear oil recommended for use in manual transmissions on the track. Provides excellent protection of gears, synchronizers, and bushings at higher temperatures. Not recommended for street use in cold climates.

-Mark
WRXIN is offline  
Old 10-10-2003, 02:05 PM   #85
drees
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 25905
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: San Diego, CA
Vehicle:
2003 Silver Wagon
Tuned with Enginuity

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by WRXIN
You say you use Redline 75W90NS but it doesnt seem to be recommended for LSDs? From the descriptions below, it appears that Redline 75W90 Gear Oil is a good choice. What do you think?
While the 75W90 is a good choice for clutch based LSDs, considering that the WRX uses sealed viscous units, the 75W90NS is better used in the transaxle and diff.
drees is offline  
Old 10-10-2003, 04:34 PM   #86
MrHorspwer
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4063
Join Date: Feb 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Michigan
Default

Quote:
You say you use Redline 75W90NS but it doesnt seem to be recommended for LSDs?
Quote:
While the 75W90 is a good choice for clutch based LSDs, considering that the WRX uses sealed viscous units, the 75W90NS is better used in the transaxle and diff.
There's your answer
MrHorspwer is offline  
Old 10-10-2003, 04:48 PM   #87
WRXIN
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 15405
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: OC, CA
Vehicle:
2004 STI
Silver/Gold - Team Blew

Default

Well, I'm going to go out on a limb here and try the Redline 75W90NS.

Is this offered in any retail stores or do I have to get it off the Internet?
WRXIN is offline  
Old 10-10-2003, 10:54 PM   #88
avatarr
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 14010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Trogdor's 3rd birthday tribute
Vehicle:
'04 APS-ified STi
TopSpeed Tuned - Black

Default

it's available in retail stores but it has to be a redline distributor. and i found out that there are more stores that sell it than are described on redline's web site. my suggestion would be to call the ricer shops in the are and ask them. you could also try motorcycle shops. that was the route i went and how i found mine.

also, 75w90ns was an improvement for me over the mobile 1 synthetic. improvement as far as the synchros went i mean (2-1 downshift). shifting was smooth with both but the NS was better when talking about the synchros.

HTH.

-Jason
avatarr is offline  
Old 10-11-2003, 01:52 AM   #89
04EJ20
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 44057
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Old Bridge, NJ
Vehicle:
2004 WRX STi
WR Blue Pearl

Default

I'm currently using RedLine 75W90NS in my tranny and shifting from 3rd to 4th grinds everytime. I should have went with ShockProof. I might switch to a non-synthetic 75W140 with Teflon in it. Any other suggestions???
04EJ20 is offline  
Old 10-11-2003, 03:09 AM   #90
JDMSubaru
Visiting NASIOC Timeout
 
Member#: 40546
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: California
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by 04EJ20
I'm currently using RedLine 75W90NS in my tranny and shifting from 3rd to 4th grinds everytime. I should have went with ShockProof. I might switch to a non-synthetic 75W140 with Teflon in it. Any other suggestions???
I suggest not to fall sucker for an oil that is not API certified (no offense). Without that mark you are potentially putting yourself at risk for problems like what you've described.

Stick to a good well-rounded brand, like the one the dealer uses: Valvoline. I use their non-synthetic in 75w90 and have had really good luck with it so far. Bottom line, don't put a $4,000 + piece of machinery like your transmission to risk.
JDMSubaru is offline  
Old 10-11-2003, 03:26 AM   #91
04EJ20
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 44057
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Old Bridge, NJ
Vehicle:
2004 WRX STi
WR Blue Pearl

Default

I know. That's why no matter how much my friend says this stuff w/ Teflon is "the best he's ever used", I'm still weary of it. He has a 10 second GTI sponsered by EIP, and he claims this is the only fluid that doesn't break down (he had switched from Heavy ShockProof to this new stuff). It is also the only stuff that helps prevent him from blowing 2nd or 3rd gear everytime he races. The question is, is it good enough for the rigors of day to day driving. i.e. Will it wear on the copper syncros???

I wish I knew the answer. Some of my troubles would be solved then. All I hear now is, "It's the best". He has the proof, but the fluid dosen't have the ratings. He says it's used in monster trucks too. 10 second GTI's? Monster trucks? My WRX? CALGON TAKE ME AWAY!!!

04EJ20 is offline  
Old 10-11-2003, 11:49 AM   #92
ride5000
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:
2003 GGA MBP
12.9 / 105+

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by 04EJ20
I'm currently using RedLine 75W90NS in my tranny and shifting from 3rd to 4th grinds everytime. I should have went with ShockProof. I might switch to a non-synthetic 75W140 with Teflon in it. Any other suggestions???
you need MORE friction, not less, to avoid gnashing gears.

top off with pennzoil syncromesh fluid and tell us what it does.

go for it. it's 5 bucks.

ken (who is still waiting to hear of ONE MT5 that's been "worn out.")
ride5000 is offline  
Old 10-11-2003, 01:19 PM   #93
WRXpkr
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 13607
Join Date: Dec 2001
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Dekalb, Il.
Vehicle:
82 Suzuki GS 1100E
Gold-ish

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Tim Sanderson
I had all the typical problems. Then I switched to Amsoil series 2000 20w50. All problems are gone. No more grinding, easier to shift into 1st, all better.
ive got about 20k miles on mine, installed it a few days before tim did around the 60k mark.
Ive used all kinds of trans lubes at this point and ive been the most impressed with the quality of shifting both in the cold and to stop the grinding id get quick shifting from 4th to 5th and from 5th to 4th.
1st has always been finiky as far as not wanting to gl into gear untill i was @ around 10mph irreguardless of if id rev match or not.
This had stopped and ive been able to erv match into 1st @ over 20mph.

I need to change it soon and plan on using the same stuff.
Alot have had good results with Royal Purple 75/90 MaxGear but none have put tens of thousands of miles on yet...

Hopefully by the next time it needs changing after this ill be taking it out to put a different gearset int oit and illl be able to document all the horrible things that im doing to my trans by using Amsoil 2000 series 20/50 synthetic engine oil.

Trent
WRXpkr is offline  
Old 10-11-2003, 01:48 PM   #94
makofoto
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 25243
Join Date: Sep 2002
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: South Pasadena, CA
Vehicle:
2006 Legacy Outback
Blue

Default

What's the easiest way to take some oil out of the tranny ... I might add some MT90 to my current OEM oil.

I had my fluids changed recently ... and notice that both the tranny and engine oils were over filled a bit ... maybe a 1/4 inch above the top line indicator ...

What is bad about having too much oil in ones tranny/engine?
makofoto is offline  
Old 10-11-2003, 10:45 PM   #95
JDMSubaru
Visiting NASIOC Timeout
 
Member#: 40546
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: California
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by makofoto
What's the easiest way to take some oil out of the tranny ... I might add some MT90 to my current OEM oil.

I had my fluids changed recently ... and notice that both the tranny and engine oils were over filled a bit ... maybe a 1/4 inch above the top line indicator ...

What is bad about having too much oil in ones tranny/engine?
Go to Kragen and buy their cheap $3.99 siphon pump, my JDM friend. It is difficult to operate but it's cleaner than loosening the bolt and letting the oil out sloppily. Also the gasket would lose it's ability to seal well if you were to go that route. And the only way to fix the newly created problem is to put a new gasket on (transmission one costs $3.55 at parts dept.--learned this the hard way). Not only that but you'll also have to let all of the transmission drain in order to not ruin the new gasket you put on from getting saturated in oil...

So go the easier route and get the little clear tubed pump (has a black rubber ball in the center) and then put the other end of it into a 2 liter bottle of soda and pump away.

P.S. don't get confused and buy Kragen's more expensive, red-tubed $13.99 pump, it's a piece of crap and the tubing is too thick to fit down either of the holes you need to drain from.
JDMSubaru is offline  
Old 10-12-2003, 01:07 AM   #96
santofontana
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 26876
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: 1990 GMC Sierra 4x4 350ci
Vehicle:
1994 Camaro Z28 383
Black M6

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by JDMSubaru


Go to Kragen and buy their cheap $3.99 siphon pump, my JDM friend. It is difficult to operate but it's cleaner than loosening the bolt and letting the oil out sloppily. Also the gasket would lose it's ability to seal well if you were to go that route. And the only way to fix the newly created problem is to put a new gasket on (transmission one costs $3.55 at parts dept.--learned this the hard way). Not only that but you'll also have to let all of the transmission drain in order to not ruin the new gasket you put on from getting saturated in oil...

So go the easier route and get the little clear tubed pump (has a black rubber ball in the center) and then put the other end of it into a 2 liter bottle of soda and pump away.

P.S. don't get confused and buy Kragen's more expensive, red-tubed $13.99 pump, it's a piece of crap and the tubing is too thick to fit down either of the holes you need to drain from.

That is rediculous, just unscrew it and let a little out and screw it back in. Your hand might get a little oil on it though.


and yes ive done it before

Last edited by santofontana; 10-12-2003 at 01:51 AM.
santofontana is offline  
Old 10-12-2003, 01:15 AM   #97
JDMSubaru
Visiting NASIOC Timeout
 
Member#: 40546
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: California
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by santofontana



That is rediculous, just unscrew it and let a little out and screw it back in. Your hand might get a little oil on it though.
Do you really know what you are talking about? Have you tried it yourself. Assuming you did, you'd know that it's harder than hell to screw back in when completely off and it dumps out quickly. The gasket will deteriorate quicker when it gets saturated in oil too. Stick to my plan MakAttak.

P.S. you spelled ridiculous the wrong way.
JDMSubaru is offline  
Old 10-12-2003, 11:11 PM   #98
04EJ20
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 44057
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Old Bridge, NJ
Vehicle:
2004 WRX STi
WR Blue Pearl

Default

So you are saying you should replace that gasket eveytime you do a tranny fluid change, just like an oil change...
04EJ20 is offline  
Old 10-13-2003, 01:56 AM   #99
JDMSubaru
Visiting NASIOC Timeout
 
Member#: 40546
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: California
Default

Quote:
Originally posted by 04EJ20
So you are saying you should replace that gasket eveytime you do a tranny fluid change, just like an oil change...
That's correct. Would you take the same chance with your engine oil and re-use that gasket?
JDMSubaru is offline  
Old 10-13-2003, 02:02 AM   #100
santofontana
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 26876
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: 1990 GMC Sierra 4x4 350ci
Vehicle:
1994 Camaro Z28 383
Black M6

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by JDMSubaru


That's correct. Would you take the same chance with your engine oil and re-use that gasket?


I have the same oil drain plug gasket and tranny plug gasket on my car that it came with. Guess what? No leaks. (35k)

Between going out and buying a siphon pump because you overfilled your tranny, and replacing a drain plug gasket because it gets a little oil on it, I think this guy is a little weird.
santofontana is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
V-Spec info revealed rmbrady Non-Subaru News & Rumors 0 07-28-2008 11:56 AM
Gear [back]lashing? gear whine.... info please psyber_0ptix Transmission (AT/MT) & Driveline 4 10-07-2005 11:32 AM
My gear oil odyssey. (non tech info inside) chrisfranklin Transmission (AT/MT) & Driveline 7 05-27-2005 06:05 AM
I need info on changing gear oil (tranny) shogunate83 Service & Maintenance 33 10-21-2002 11:17 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.