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Old 09-25-2003, 10:45 PM   #1
chuglobal
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Default UTEC & Tuning Questions

1. Does having a wideband O2 sensor mounted in a catless uppipe cause false readings due to higher temperature and pressure? Would the reading be to lean thus in real life the A/F mixture still be too rich?
2. Is there a PNP wideband O2 sensor for the UTEC? I heard TurboXs was coming out w/ one specifically for the UTEC but it might just be a rumor.
3. Can adding too much fuel cause knock? Would the ECU generate some weird calculations due to the increase in fuel from the base Stage 2 map + increase in timing to cause knock?
4. What is the timing advanced most people are seeing as compared to the base Stage 2 map? They range in the low 20s but I heard some people got it up to 28+/- w/ no knock.
5. Are most people running negative fuel variables once the car is tunned for a learner A/F mixture? What is the A/F mixture in which people are targeting for ... 11.2:1, 10:2, 12:2:1, etc?
6. Has anyone used the extra downloadable software for the UTEC to log whp and ft/lbs on the road and not at a real dyno? Are the reading pretty accurate?

These factors are all assuming tuning in mid 50s w/ a mean target of 16.5psi max in 4th gear. Anyone w/ real world insight would really be appreciated. Thanks.
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Old 09-26-2003, 03:49 AM   #2
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I believe that mounting an wideband in the upipe would indeed cause mis-reasings because it should see positive boost pressure. The best place is right where the stock 02sensor is in the exhuast, hopefully whatever aftermarket exhuast you have still has that bung in it. You can just turn the CEL off with the UTEC then..

In my stock turbo/intercooler/fuelsystem rex, i run the ignition advance up to around 26 degrees peak, although I can run 27 degrees in certain areas without knock sometimes. But if it's hot out etc. I usually switch to the map with 26degrees peak and lower boost. On my most aggressive ignition map I'm already running 25degrees at around 4,500rpms and at 5,000 rpms I go to 26, and then between 5,500-6,200rpms I'm at 27, then back to 26degrees. I normally run a peak boost of 16psi, down to 14.5psi at 6krpms, and by redline maybe 12-13psi.

As for the fuel values, I have fuel values between -1.5 to -2.8 on my most aggressive map, I have no idea what the a/f ratio is I only used EGTs to help me. I would guess to say it's as lean as 11:1, maybe leaner. But as long as I don't get detonation I don't stress about it.

Also, yes adding too much fuel can induce knock definatly. And turboxs has not released the WB02 reader yet, I think it's going to be priced around $400-$500 though according to the "rumors", but a better choice compared to other widebands if it does work with the UTEC IMO.
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Old 09-26-2003, 07:47 AM   #3
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Default Hi

1. There are 2x O2 sensors stock, one in the exhaust manifold and one right before the 3rd Cat. How would the part between the exhaust manifold to uppipe see positive boost pressure? The Vishnu catless uppipe has a bung for a wideband O2 sensor, I would deduct that they put it there for a reason?
2. How does running too rich cause knock? Do you have a "theory," I just heard that it through the "grapevine."
3. Humm I thought the wideband O2 kit for the UTEC from TurobXs would be a little cheaper in the $300+/- range.
4. What is a good practical procedure in tunning: boost ( obtain desired boost level ) > timing ( reduce knock if necessary ) > A/F ( decrease for optimal performance but no too lean ) > timing ( advance as much as possible w/ out knock and watch A/F change )?
5. Does changing timing ( advance/pull ) cause a change in A/F ratio?
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Old 09-26-2003, 02:25 PM   #4
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Default Re: Hi

Quote:
Originally posted by chuglobal
1. There are 2x O2 sensors stock, one in the exhaust manifold and one right before the 3rd Cat. How would the part between the exhaust manifold to uppipe see positive boost pressure? The Vishnu catless uppipe has a bung for a wideband O2 sensor, I would deduct that they put it there for a reason?
2. How does running too rich cause knock? Do you have a "theory," I just heard that it through the "grapevine."
3. Humm I thought the wideband O2 kit for the UTEC from TurobXs would be a little cheaper in the $300+/- range.
4. What is a good practical procedure in tunning: boost ( obtain desired boost level ) > timing ( reduce knock if necessary ) > A/F ( decrease for optimal performance but no too lean ) > timing ( advance as much as possible w/ out knock and watch A/F change )?
5. Does changing timing ( advance/pull ) cause a change in A/F ratio?
Yeah there are two 02 sensors right, the ghetto wideband one in the exhuast manifold reads incorrectly because it is subjected to boost pressure, the reason why the UTEC logger just says rich after about 12:1. If you mount an wideband sensor in the upipe, thats just downstream from the exhuast manifold so the same thing would happen IMO. It has to be after the exhuast comes out of the exhuast side of the turbo like where the 2nd 02 sensor is by the 3rd cat.

I don't know why adding too much fuel can cause knock enough to explain it technically.

I've never had the chance to tune with an wideband so I don't know if it causes a change in the a/f ratio. I know it can cause a change in the EGT reading though, but I think that the a/f ratio stays the same. (which can make tuning with EGTs decieving sometimes)
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Old 09-27-2003, 09:53 AM   #5
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Default Humm ...

1. Then why would Vishnu add a bung for a wideband O2 sensor in the uppipe. I don't think they'd have that type of reasoning? Vishnu or TurboXs do you guys have any comments?

2. Can anyone explain why too much fuel may cause knock in "lamemen" terms?

3. Anyone else have physical experience in the change on the A/F when the timing is changed?

4. Does calibrating the TPS make that much of a difference? What is the default and what is the goal?

5. I was reading on another post, does copying the 50% load column to the 10% load column really help reduce knocks during shifts or transition states?

6. Is there somewhere in the UTEC parameters to say ... I want 16.5psi so the boost values are a percentage of that; ie: if I'm at 80% and the specific value is 16.5 then I would get 13.2psi? Is that more close loop boost control rather than open loop?
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Old 10-01-2003, 11:52 AM   #6
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I was also under the impression that the best place for a wide band was in the downpipe (i.e. weld in a bung, or whatever).
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Old 10-08-2003, 08:10 AM   #7
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Default Yo

1. That would make sense too however I really would like to know the justification manufacturers use to design their products for the location for a WB O2 sensor.
2. TurboXs, Vishnu, etc have any factual ideas to add?
3. Why does humidity make such a huge difference? It seems like the ECU has a slow transition from open to close loop during high humidity weather thus causing knock to occur?
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Old 10-08-2003, 09:01 AM   #8
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Everything that I've heard from different tuner points to welding bung 12-18 inches after the turbo in the downpipe. This is where there is optimal temperature for the O2 sensor. It therefore will give the most accurate readings. You don't want to tune for leaner than 11:1 on pump gas. I run 10.6:1 just to be on the safe side. If your tuning for race fuel you can often tune for 12:1.

Too much fuel can cause knock. I forget the exact reason why but I remember it being discussed.

You absolutely want to calibrate TPS so that your Utec operates correctly. Just read your instructions, it's really easy. If you go slightly over 100% it is okay, but you want to at least hit 100% at WOT.

New question #6: Boost control doesn't work like that for any type of boost controller that I know of.
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Old 10-10-2003, 08:04 AM   #9
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Default Yo

1. Why is the world would some "high" tunning manufactuers have a WB O2 bung in the uppipe? I figure it would also be best in the downpipe.
2. I should start tweaking the UTEC TPS, I just haven't had too much time to read up on it. I think I shall do it this weekend.
3. I heard the EBC controls the boost much more effectively as compared to the MBC and definitely the ABC. Does an EBC help w/ boost control in aftermarket ECU in a huge manner or just a perception?
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Old 10-11-2003, 12:09 PM   #10
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Default Re: Humm ...

Quote:
Originally posted by chuglobal


2. Can anyone explain why too much fuel may cause knock in "lamemen" terms?

hehe, lame men
I read this definition in another post: Knock/Detonation is the spontaneous combustion of the end-gas (remaining fuel/air mixture) in the chamber. This occurs after the spark.
So, if you are running too rich then there would be even more "end gas" to ignite, which would make the possibility of detonation higher or more severe.
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Old 10-11-2003, 10:37 PM   #11
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Default Humm ...

That's actually quite interesting, I always "thought" that knock was due to the original A/F mixture combusting before the planned timing not the remaining A/F mixture left after the first combustion cycle takes place. Humm, I guess that why people have to "tune" their cars, not only are you trying to run "leaner" than factory specs to gain the most optimal hp w/out melting the engine, but also not too rich to have extra fuel left over after the first combustion cycle. Won't people who say "add extra fuel" when knock occurs because adding the more fuel to cause more knock?
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Old 10-12-2003, 12:51 PM   #12
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Default Re: Rich Knock

Allright,
In lame men's terms.
There are multiple factors working to create/prevent knock. But, knock is most influenced by intake charge temperature. So, if you increase boost, or it's a real hot day, the odds of knock occuring are higher. Dumping in more and more fuel (richer mixture) helps to cool the intake charge from the fuel vaporizing in the charge. This works up to a point, since when you add fuel, you are essentially adding more and more points in the combustion chamber for knock to begin from (increasing the odds of knock). This factor isn't quite as strong as the intake temperature though, so it comes in later. Research by Ricardo in the 30's with a non-intercooled supercharged engine suggests that you can keep adding boost, by using more fuel to prevent knock up to about 9:1 afr, and then after that he saw that more fuel actually caused more knock. Usually if you are running 9:1 afr, your car will reek of gasoline at and your oil will smell like it too. Taking this a bit further, this is why water injection works well. Since it only cools the charge and doesn't add more sites for knock.
That's my 2cents.

And I always thought the extra bung in the uppipes was for aftermarket EGT sensors, which is the wrong place for that too.
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Old 10-12-2003, 03:03 PM   #13
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Default Yo

1. Thanks for the responses. Basicaly wat I'm seeing is what I suspected after the post before my last one; adding fuel "cools" combustion chamber but too much adding to the factor that fuel remains that "could" cause knock before the next planned combustion cycle.
2. Most people agree that you want the EGT sensor as close to the engine, exhaust manifold, to obtain the most accurate readings. It seems like many aftermarket uppipes have two bungs, one for the factory EGT and the other was for the WB O2, at least this is what I thought it was for until many people shared the idea that the pressure before the turbo causes false readings. I've looked at some aftermarket downpipe manufacturers which inlcude a bung for the WB O2 sensor. I haven't literally looked recently but I remember seeing some a while back.
3. I finally changed the TPS to 100, it was at 99% w/ the default setting of 4.0. I changed it to 3.9 and now I have 103% when at WOT. Many people have stated that it's ok to be a "little" above 100% so I'm fine w/ the results.
4. I noticed the safety measures in the UTEC for coolant and air temp correction are set to 100C by default which is 212F? Isn't that like a little high for air temperature correction? Should it be like 100F, I'm assuming the air temp is the ambiant temperature of the outside. Basically what I want is that when it's say ... 90F+ degrees outside I want the UTEC to pull 1 degree of timing across the whole map to prevent knock caused my higher heated air. Would I change the default air correction = 32.2C and timing correction = -1? I know how heat kills the fun out of FI cars, I just want to be safe in 90+ humid weather. I also assume the MAF senses correct outside temperature, so if the outside temperature is 90F then by the time the air hits the MAF it should still be around 90F or is it hotter?
5. When I "cruise" at say 1st or even 2nd gear at any rpms between 3-5 and suddenly go WOT, sometimes I get knock. I happens less in cold dry days and definitely more often in hot humid days. It seems like the car's ECU is on a vacation and not responding fast enough. I've read to copy the timing from the 50% load column and paste into the 10% columns, does it really work? Wouldn't the ECU still be "confused" since you're going from the control of the ECU > UTEC > ECU "very" quickly?
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Old 10-15-2003, 04:56 PM   #14
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I've had good results building maps starting with 50% column and sometimes 40%.

Regarding temp correction... I've found that ECT isn't very crictal and can be set to 92C. IAT of 42C showed promise. I say that because correction due to heat offered little consistancy on my car as far as added knock resistance. It's important to remember how to input the correction values for fuel and timing. They *should* both be positive numbers. A positive fuel value will add fuel. A positive timing value will retard timing.

Most recently, I've been experimenting with an 'inverse correction' method. I won't get into it on this thread.
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Old 10-15-2003, 06:32 PM   #15
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Default Re: Yo

Quote:
Originally posted by chuglobal

5. When I "cruise" at say 1st or even 2nd gear at any rpms between 3-5 and suddenly go WOT, sometimes I get knock. I happens less in cold dry days and definitely more often in hot humid days. It seems like the car's ECU is on a vacation and not responding fast enough. I've read to copy the timing from the 50% load column and paste into the 10% columns, does it really work? Wouldn't the ECU still be "confused" since you're going from the control of the ECU > UTEC > ECU "very" quickly? [/b]
I would really like to know this as well, its been happening to me on my more aggressive maps while runinng the 1/4
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Old 10-16-2003, 02:45 PM   #16
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Default Yo

1. I figured IAT correction would be more "promising" however wasn't sure. Does the MAF sensor detect true outside air temperature or is it higher since it's in the engine bay? If you have it set to 42C then it's 107F+, would it be safer to do 33C thus 90F+ or is that being way too conservative? I guess the first part of the questions will lead into the answers for the second part.
2. I'm glad you reminded me about the correction factor, I would have adjusted the correction to -1 thinking it'd pull timing when it should be +1 to pull 1 degree of timing once the MAF reads a certain IAT.
3. Does copying the 50% column really help solve the "knock during change" issue? Why not use the 40% column instead? Would you copy the 50% to 10% column?
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Old 10-16-2003, 03:15 PM   #17
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Default Re: Humm ...

Quote:
Originally posted by chuglobal
1. Then why would Vishnu add a bung for a wideband O2 sensor in the uppipe. I don't think they'd have that type of reasoning? Vishnu or TurboXs do you guys have any comments?
Under most circumstances you want the O2 sensor in a low pressure environment that does not exceed 600 to 700 degrees C. unless you have a pressure compensated O2 sensor. Jon in CT posted a nice write up about this about a year ago if I remember correctly.

As for why Vishnu put their O2 bung in the up-pipe... you'll have to ask them.



Quote:
Originally posted by chuglobal
[b]
4. Does calibrating the TPS make that much of a difference? What is the default and what is the goal?
No

Quote:
Originally posted by chuglobal
[b]5. I was reading on another post, does copying the 50% load column to the 10% load column really help reduce knocks during shifts or transition states?
Yes, see the stg2new map and the stg4fmic map. We'll be releasing a stg4new map very soon. Basically on a well running UTEC car the stock ECU is going to be far too aggressive on its ignition timing and as a result you'll knock when the UTEC runs into those load sites.



Quote:
Originally posted by chuglobal
6. Is there somewhere in the UTEC parameters to say ... I want 16.5psi so the boost values are a percentage of that; ie: if I'm at 80% and the specific value is 16.5 then I would get 13.2psi?
No
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Old 10-20-2003, 09:13 AM   #18
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Default Yo

1. The MAF sensor does NOT detect outside temperature. I checked weather channel and it's 70F+/- however the IAT was 42C+/- thus 107F which is a 37F+/- difference. I assume this is caused by the heat soak or other engine energy functions?

2. I changed my parameter for IAT correction at 45C w/ timing correction at +1 ... this should basically tell the UTEC to pull 1 degree of timing across the whole board once IAT is 45C+. My goal is to pull timing when outside temperature is 85+ which I'll need to figure what the IAT would be, I'll need to look at the dashboard one day in the future.

3. I have also copied the 50% column in the timing to the 10% column, I'll need to do some aggressive driving and see what happens. I just think it's weird to have the ECU @ 0% > UTEC @ 10% > ECU @ 20%-30% > UTEC @ 40%-100%. I would think it would be more rough to switch between ECU > UTEC > ECU > UTEC?


* 4. I upgraded from version 2.5B to 3.1 last Friday and reloaded my current map; everything went as planned according to the manual instructions. However after the upgrade the stock ECU is using a "safer" map thus richer. I suddenly got knock again where it use to be fine. I'm testing the theory that my knocks are due to "extra" fuel because I always get worse gas mileage after a ECU reset and knock started to occur again. The only variable change is the extra fuel being "dumped" into the engine. Why did the ECu switch to a safer map? I didn't disconnect the battery at first but I did later, it shouldn't have switched maps right? Has anyone else seen the extra fuel problem causing knock?
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Old 10-20-2003, 05:05 PM   #19
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3. You should look at the "stage 2 new" map again. The UTEC takes over the timing from 10% all the way up. What Nathan was describing was copying the 50% site all the way (inclusive) down to 10%.
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Old 10-22-2003, 03:39 AM   #20
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Default Re: Yo

[quote]Originally posted by chuglobal
[b]

2. I changed my parameter for IAT correction at 45C w/ timing correction at +1 ... this should basically tell the UTEC to pull 1 degree of timing across the whole board once IAT is 45C+.

If the timing correction is +1 wouldn't add one degree?
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Old 10-22-2003, 08:26 AM   #21
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No...

Positive timing correction actually retards timing. Negative timing will add timing.

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Old 10-23-2003, 01:32 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Si2WRX
No...

Positive timing correction actually retards timing. Negative timing will add timing.

oh ok, thats silly though
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Old 10-24-2003, 09:27 AM   #23
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Default Yo

1. I've been looking at dyno / custom tunned Stage 2 maps recently online. The optimistic part is that I see how much more aggressive the Stage 2 can be as compared to what I'm running now. Plus the factor that the fuel becomes negative which means better gas mileage along w/ more power because the mixture is more lean.

2. I "think" the majority of recent knocks were due to the "safe" map which was caused by the extra fuel in the combustion equations. I have a good feeling that once I get the A/F to the desired ratios, I can run more timing along w/ a knock free or minimum knock situations.

3. Where can I get a O2 sensor bung welded in Marietta/Atlanta area who doesn't care about exhaust mods? How much would it costs and how long would it take? Does it matter where on the DP the O2 sensor is placed or just somewhere as close to the part after the turbo?

3. Does anyone have a WB O2 sensor that's PNP the the UTEC now?

4. If you have access to a dyno, how long would it take to go through each matrix point and tune ... ie: hold at 1.5Krpm and slowly go through each load pt and go till 7K?

5. Can you make adjustments to the UTEC while on the throttle during tunning? I thought the engine should always be at idle before saving/changing maps?
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Old 10-24-2003, 10:39 AM   #24
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1. Stg 2 has a lot of potential and can be leaned out a bit.

4. Shouldn't take too long on a dyno. An initial approach for fuel tuning... I would set the boost to near-stock level. Do a pull and log AFR and logger #1 on the Utec. The base Stg 2 map is a great starting point. Using the data from the AFR log, manipulate the values in the fuel map as needed. Raise the boost one psi and repeat. Keep working up to 16.5psi tweaking the columns as needed.

5. No? I don't completely understand what you're saying...

Question for you... where's a dyno you can tune on? Maybe we can talk SoG into letting me tune your car on their dyno

Erik

Last edited by Si2WRX; 10-24-2003 at 03:29 PM.
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Old 10-24-2003, 02:00 PM   #25
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Quote:
5. Can you make adjustments to the UTEC while on the throttle during tunning? I thought the engine should always be at idle before saving/changing maps?
Yes, although I'd recommend you get someone else to do the tuning while you're driving or vice versa. And yes, the engine should be at idle before saving (not changing) maps. You could disengage the clutch while driving, let the rpms drop to idle, save and then resume driving but this is extremely dangerous. Do yourself and your fellow motorists a favor and stop before trying to make any adjustments.

I don't think there are any ECUs and/or software out there that allow you to change your maps on the fly....

Tune safely!

Cheers!
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