Who makes 321 stainless equal-length header?

SlowSTi · 10-09-2003, 08:44 PM

From my research, 321 stainless seems to be the "proper" material to use for headers on turbocharged cars. Most of the headers, including the one I really like - Maxim Works, are 304 stainless.

The only 321 stainless header for our cars that I have found is made by B&B. I am not very excited about it because the collector doesn't "look good" and it's not equal length.

Collector design is pretty important to me.

So, who makes a 321 stainless equal-length header for a 2004 WRX STi?

Thanks.

* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

SlowSTi · 10-10-2003, 03:46 PM

Anyone knows?

LargeOrangeFont · 10-10-2003, 04:03 PM

GP MOTO does..

Heres the install on my car. Let me know if you have any more questions or are interested in one.

GP MOTO header

Ashley

SlowSTi · 10-10-2003, 04:09 PM

It looks awesome.

I am looking for 321 stainless and 4-into-1 design though.

I believe the GP MOTO is 304 stainless and 4-2-1 design.

LargeOrangeFont · 10-10-2003, 04:15 PM

yea it is 4-2-1 and 304. I dont know of any more 321 aside from the one you mentioned.

driggity · 10-10-2003, 04:24 PM

He isn't looking for 3-2-1 (don't know how that would work). He's looking for something made out of 321 stainless instead of 304 stainless. It is nice that someone (B&B) finally started making a 321 header though. Although I don't think I've really heard of people having issues with 304 headers (that would be solved with 321) so maybe its not that big a deal.

LargeOrangeFont · 10-10-2003, 04:26 PM

that came out wrong.. I was eating my lunch

3-2-1 wouldn't work... unless it was on a geo metro

SlowSTi · 10-10-2003, 04:32 PM

With the high temperature, I am not sure how well the 304 stainless is going to hold up. For close to stock configuration, it's probably not a big issue. For high hp application, things might be different.

I wonder what header WRC cars use...

STEALTH-WRX · 10-10-2003, 04:46 PM

I have the gt spec 304 stainless header on my car and it works great. How high of hp are you talking. I am looking for over 500 to the wheels with my car and i dont think that 304 is going to be a problem. 304 will hold its properties well over what we can run through it. I has a 1400-1500 F continuous working temperature and a 2300 F fatigue temperature where the tensile strenght will drop 50%. ( still acceptable. )

If you look here: It shows the continuous running temperatures of 304 and 321 and they are only 100 F apart. Take in mind those are running temperatures. You exhaust sees much less then that running and about that when running your engine hard.

http://www.ces.clemson.edu/chemeng/uolab/metal4.htm

My set up.

SlowSTi · 10-10-2003, 05:43 PM

I wonder why I hear about these header cracking stories on 304 stainless.

On the other hand, I speculate it might be improper design rather than material.

I am only talking about 500 crank hp or so...

STEALTH-WRX, your setup looks great!!

STEALTH-WRX · 10-10-2003, 05:47 PM

Cracking is a result of to much stress on the header itself. If you have proper mounts then it will never be an issue. You hear alot of problems when the turbo is resting competely on the turbo manifold and has no supports to hold it to the motor. Most of the bolt on systems offered utilize your factory mounts that bolt to the top of the up pipe or one piece turbo manifold. As long as you use those, your good to go and problem free. Pm me anytime if you have technical questions.

LargeOrangeFont · 10-10-2003, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by STEALTH-WRX
Cracking is a result of to much stress on the header itself. If you have proper mounts then it will never be an issue. You hear alot of problems when the turbo is resting competely on the turbo manifold and has no supports to hold it to the motor. Most of the bolt on systems offered utilize your factory mounts that bolt to the top of the up pipe or one piece turbo manifold. As long as you use those, your good to go and problem free. Pm me anytime if you have technical questions.

word to what stealth said. If the header is improperly mounted, or even a DP for that matter, It can break at the flange after repetitative heat cycling. 321 is costlier material, w\ slightly different properties. But not necessarily needed for a header application.

STEALTH-WRX · 10-10-2003, 06:10 PM

The only time i would suggest using 321 is if i had a rotory motor. They can produce some crazy heat.

SlowSTi · 10-10-2003, 06:13 PM

I have seen some hardcore headers from Japan. Do you think we will see Titanium headers for our cars?

LargeOrangeFont · 10-10-2003, 06:30 PM

lol At the prices of japanese stainless steel headers, a titanium one would be $2500+ Im sure someone makes one.

LyveWRX · 10-10-2003, 07:32 PM

I think that the WRC cars use mostly Ni-based super-alloy exausts. The cost is the problem, for sheet matl' (coil) 2x-5x over SS, they form better but also are really gummy in dies and machining.
But they hold much better than 50% UTS at T>2000F (almost to their melting points). (My data sheets are at work or I'd give some specs and actual strengths.) This would be a really good choice since the Anti-Lag basically turns the header/up-pipe into the combustion chamber of a jet engine. And thats what the Ni-(Co & Cr etc) based superalloys were developed for.

I woudn't want my header pipes to experience forces above the yield point at temp. Tensile strength is when failure occurs. Yeild is when things start to bend.

The Ti(and or V) additions to 321 (and 347) ss provide resistance to a phenomenon called sensitization. Sensitization is caused by Cr combining with the C in the steel. These solid Cr-carbide precipitates form along grain boundaries. This then can result in Stress Corrosion Cracking and Intergranular Corrosion. Also the mechanical properties change vastly as the C is removed from solution in the Fe.

SCC is accelerated by the presence of Cl.

Road Salt produces Cl ions in water.

However 304L stainless is much more common on the market (from what I hear I dont use that particular grade) and since the C content is so low sensitization is much lower thou not prevented totally.

As to the header faiures due to cracking they would likely have to be properly examined in place at the time of failure to really know for sure why. SCC does (IIRC) produce a charecteristic fracture surface, a good met-lab w/ sem could possibly tell you.

nick

( my choices would be:

A Ni based alloy, I'll look one up tomorrow.

347/321 SS (321 is marginally better)

Weight no object: grey cast iron bout a grade 50 or so w/ large well distributed graphite flakes.

316L

304L

304

316

409 (most stock exausts are made of this now)

Aluminized Carbon Steel

)

STEALTH-WRX · 10-11-2003, 02:27 AM

Inconel = the best

nhluhr · 10-11-2003, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by STEALTH-WRX
Inconel = the best

inconel is what the exhaust turbine on your turbos are generally made of.

10-09-2003, 08:44 PM	#1
SlowSTi Scooby Newbie Member#: 42383 Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bellevue, WA Vehicle: 2004 WRX STi Blue/Gold	Who makes 321 stainless equal-length header? From my research, 321 stainless seems to be the "proper" material to use for headers on turbocharged cars. Most of the headers, including the one I really like - Maxim Works, are 304 stainless. The only 321 stainless header for our cars that I have found is made by B&B. I am not very excited about it because the collector doesn't "look good" and it's not equal length. Collector design is pretty important to me. So, who makes a 321 stainless equal-length header for a 2004 WRX STi? Thanks. * Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

10-10-2003, 04:15 PM	#5
LargeOrangeFont Scooby Specialist Member#: 28475 Join Date: Oct 2002 Chapter/Region: SCIC Location: So Cal Vehicle: 86 RX-7, 07 Yaris, 04 Cobra	yea it is 4-2-1 and 304. I dont know of any more 321 aside from the one you mentioned. Last edited by LargeOrangeFont; 10-10-2003 at 04:25 PM.

10-10-2003, 07:32 PM	#16
LyveWRX Scooby Specialist Member#: 19057 Join Date: May 2002 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Mid-Town, Detroit, MI Vehicle: 2002 WRX & Red Ford 1-ton Van	Ummm as far as metal goes.... I think that the WRC cars use mostly Ni-based super-alloy exausts. The cost is the problem, for sheet matl' (coil) 2x-5x over SS, they form better but also are really gummy in dies and machining. But they hold much better than 50% UTS at T>2000F (almost to their melting points). (My data sheets are at work or I'd give some specs and actual strengths.) This would be a really good choice since the Anti-Lag basically turns the header/up-pipe into the combustion chamber of a jet engine. And thats what the Ni-(Co & Cr etc) based superalloys were developed for. I woudn't want my header pipes to experience forces above the yield point at temp. Tensile strength is when failure occurs. Yeild is when things start to bend. The Ti(and or V) additions to 321 (and 347) ss provide resistance to a phenomenon called sensitization. Sensitization is caused by Cr combining with the C in the steel. These solid Cr-carbide precipitates form along grain boundaries. This then can result in Stress Corrosion Cracking and Intergranular Corrosion. Also the mechanical properties change vastly as the C is removed from solution in the Fe. SCC is accelerated by the presence of Cl. Road Salt produces Cl ions in water. However 304L stainless is much more common on the market (from what I hear I dont use that particular grade) and since the C content is so low sensitization is much lower thou not prevented totally. As to the header faiures due to cracking they would likely have to be properly examined in place at the time of failure to really know for sure why. SCC does (IIRC) produce a charecteristic fracture surface, a good met-lab w/ sem could possibly tell you. nick ( my choices would be: A Ni based alloy, I'll look one up tomorrow. 347/321 SS (321 is marginally better) Weight no object: grey cast iron bout a grade 50 or so w/ large well distributed graphite flakes. 316L 304L 304 316 409 (most stock exausts are made of this now) Aluminized Carbon Steel )

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10-10-2003, 03:46 PM	#2
SlowSTi Scooby Newbie Member#: 42383 Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bellevue, WA Vehicle: 2004 WRX STi Blue/Gold	Anyone knows?

10-10-2003, 04:03 PM	#3
LargeOrangeFont Scooby Specialist Member#: 28475 Join Date: Oct 2002 Chapter/Region: SCIC Location: So Cal Vehicle: 86 RX-7, 07 Yaris, 04 Cobra	GP MOTO does.. Heres the install on my car. Let me know if you have any more questions or are interested in one. GP MOTO header Ashley

10-10-2003, 04:09 PM	#4
SlowSTi Scooby Newbie Member#: 42383 Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bellevue, WA Vehicle: 2004 WRX STi Blue/Gold	It looks awesome. I am looking for 321 stainless and 4-into-1 design though. I believe the GP MOTO is 304 stainless and 4-2-1 design.

10-10-2003, 04:24 PM	#6
driggity Scooby Specialist Member#: 7453 Join Date: Jun 2001 Chapter/Region: TXIC Location: Grapevine, TX Vehicle: 2005 Legacy GT Wagon 2006 LJ Rubicon	He isn't looking for 3-2-1 (don't know how that would work). He's looking for something made out of 321 stainless instead of 304 stainless. It is nice that someone (B&B) finally started making a 321 header though. Although I don't think I've really heard of people having issues with 304 headers (that would be solved with 321) so maybe its not that big a deal.

10-10-2003, 04:26 PM	#7
LargeOrangeFont Scooby Specialist Member#: 28475 Join Date: Oct 2002 Chapter/Region: SCIC Location: So Cal Vehicle: 86 RX-7, 07 Yaris, 04 Cobra	that came out wrong.. I was eating my lunch 3-2-1 wouldn't work... unless it was on a geo metro

10-10-2003, 04:32 PM	#8
SlowSTi Scooby Newbie Member#: 42383 Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bellevue, WA Vehicle: 2004 WRX STi Blue/Gold	With the high temperature, I am not sure how well the 304 stainless is going to hold up. For close to stock configuration, it's probably not a big issue. For high hp application, things might be different. I wonder what header WRC cars use...

10-10-2003, 04:46 PM	#9
STEALTH-WRX Scooby Specialist Member#: 7822 Join Date: Jun 2001 Chapter/Region: SCIC Location: Huntington Beach, California Vehicle: 2002 WRX Multi layer snot green	I have the gt spec 304 stainless header on my car and it works great. How high of hp are you talking. I am looking for over 500 to the wheels with my car and i dont think that 304 is going to be a problem. 304 will hold its properties well over what we can run through it. I has a 1400-1500 F continuous working temperature and a 2300 F fatigue temperature where the tensile strenght will drop 50%. ( still acceptable. ) If you look here: It shows the continuous running temperatures of 304 and 321 and they are only 100 F apart. Take in mind those are running temperatures. You exhaust sees much less then that running and about that when running your engine hard. http://www.ces.clemson.edu/chemeng/uolab/metal4.htm My set up.

10-10-2003, 05:43 PM	#10
SlowSTi Scooby Newbie Member#: 42383 Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bellevue, WA Vehicle: 2004 WRX STi Blue/Gold	I wonder why I hear about these header cracking stories on 304 stainless. On the other hand, I speculate it might be improper design rather than material. I am only talking about 500 crank hp or so... STEALTH-WRX, your setup looks great!!

10-10-2003, 05:47 PM	#11
STEALTH-WRX Scooby Specialist Member#: 7822 Join Date: Jun 2001 Chapter/Region: SCIC Location: Huntington Beach, California Vehicle: 2002 WRX Multi layer snot green	Cracking is a result of to much stress on the header itself. If you have proper mounts then it will never be an issue. You hear alot of problems when the turbo is resting competely on the turbo manifold and has no supports to hold it to the motor. Most of the bolt on systems offered utilize your factory mounts that bolt to the top of the up pipe or one piece turbo manifold. As long as you use those, your good to go and problem free. Pm me anytime if you have technical questions.

10-10-2003, 06:10 PM	#13
STEALTH-WRX Scooby Specialist Member#: 7822 Join Date: Jun 2001 Chapter/Region: SCIC Location: Huntington Beach, California Vehicle: 2002 WRX Multi layer snot green	The only time i would suggest using 321 is if i had a rotory motor. They can produce some crazy heat.

10-10-2003, 06:13 PM	#14
SlowSTi Scooby Newbie Member#: 42383 Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Bellevue, WA Vehicle: 2004 WRX STi Blue/Gold	I have seen some hardcore headers from Japan. Do you think we will see Titanium headers for our cars?

10-10-2003, 06:30 PM	#15
LargeOrangeFont Scooby Specialist Member#: 28475 Join Date: Oct 2002 Chapter/Region: SCIC Location: So Cal Vehicle: 86 RX-7, 07 Yaris, 04 Cobra	lol At the prices of japanese stainless steel headers, a titanium one would be $2500+ Im sure someone makes one.

10-11-2003, 02:27 AM	#17
STEALTH-WRX Scooby Specialist Member#: 7822 Join Date: Jun 2001 Chapter/Region: SCIC Location: Huntington Beach, California Vehicle: 2002 WRX Multi layer snot green	Inconel = the best