Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Sunday May 3, 2015
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
Click here to visit TireRack
Brakes & Suspension Forum sponsored by The Tire Rack

Losing traction? Need new tires?
Click here to visit the NASIOC Upgrade Garage...
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Brakes, Steering & Suspension

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-13-2003, 08:24 AM   #1
red5001
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 33942
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Roochester, NY
Vehicle:
04.5 STI
wrb

Default Stock STI brake pads for the track?

I am going to be attending a driving school in a few weeks (HPDE). I was planning on changing brake fluid but my question is how do the stock brake pads hold up? Is it recommended to get new pads for the track? I was looking at getting some carbotech panther plus pads. If you guys have any comments let me know. Thanks
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
red5001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2003, 03:29 PM   #2
Karter
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 35838
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Vermont
Vehicle:
2004 STi
White

Default

I did an event two weeks ago at Mont Tremblant, a track that si quite hard on brakes, and found the stock pads to be OK, not great, but not horrible either. I wish I had changed the fluid, but did niot have time prior.

Michael
Karter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2003, 05:49 PM   #3
mav1c
Hoodbridge!
Moderator
 
Member#: 560
Join Date: Nov 1999
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Woodbridge, VA
Vehicle:
2006 STi, '11 A4
Crystal Gray, Silver

Default

If you plan to track the car fairly often (even 3-4 times a year), it is probably worth it to get a set of track pads. I change my pads every time I go to the track. Sure track pads cost a lot, but I KNOW I'd destroy my stock Axxis Ultimates if I ran them, and I'd have to replace them anyway, so the cost evens out....almost.

If you overheat the stock pads, they will never perform as well, and could end up damaging the rotors from chunking and glaze. Not to scare you into getting track pads, but just something to think about.

I've run the Stoptech club race and Pagid Orange, and I have even overheated both of those. I will be trying the Carbotech XP9's at the HPDE ( I think it's the same one you're going to), so we'll see how they hold up.

One thing that might enlighten you is maybe trying the stock pads the first day, and switch to the track pads the second day (after a good bed-in). You'd be surprised how much better they hold up to fade and the better bite they give.

Even after all that, you absolutely do not HAVE to run track/race pads your first time out, but if you can swing it, get them. Better to be safe than sorry.

I usually install the track pads the night before and give them a GOOD bed in session on some back roads around Woodbridge. I'd be glad to take you along.
mav1c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2003, 11:51 PM   #4
red5001
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 33942
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Roochester, NY
Vehicle:
04.5 STI
wrb

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by mav1c
If you plan to track the car fairly often (even 3-4 times a year), it is probably worth it to get a set of track pads. I change my pads every time I go to the track. Sure track pads cost a lot, but I KNOW I'd destroy my stock Axxis Ultimates if I ran them, and I'd have to replace them anyway, so the cost evens out....almost.

I usually install the track pads the night before and give them a GOOD bed in session on some back roads around Woodbridge. I'd be glad to take you along.
It looks like I am going to get some new pads for the track. Like you said better safe then sorry. Plus I figure I will be attending a few more track days so it won't be money wasted for new pads. Plus its not to hard to change pads.

I would take you up on your offer of showing me some back roads in Woodbridge the day before (it is the same event you are attending) But I am moving to Rochester, NY (new job) next week. So I won't be in town but I am still coming down for the event at Summit Point. Thanks for all the help and advice. I'll see you at the track
red5001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2003, 11:54 PM   #5
FSelekler
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 41410
Join Date: Aug 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Vehicle:
2006 987-120
Atlas Gray

Default

I was at the track just this past weekend, and one thing I can tell you is: do change to at least street/auto-x pads, or full race ones. The full competition compounds should only be used at the track however, don't drive with them to the street.

After 3 30-minute sessions on a short track (1.3 mi.) that is normally not hard on brakes, the pads were litterally baked on to the rotors. Braking performance was good, but I have used up about 50% of my pads and now the rotors are all blue. I also changed to Castrol SRF, and still you can see the fluid boiling to a point that it leaked through the brake bleeders (from all four corners). One good sign however, all pads wore the same level and it seems the brake balance is well adjusted.

The main issue is the stock pads are not very heat resistant, and even though they will hold up well, they will damage the rotors and boil the brake fluid. Depending on how demanding the track you will be on, just be safe and get some street/auto-x pads.

My personal preference are the Porterfield R4S pads. I had them on my BMW at the same track 3 months ago with OEM brake fluid, and they performed 10/10, no boiling, no blue rotors.
FSelekler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2003, 08:19 AM   #6
MattN
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 24710
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Shelby, NC
Default

I do not recommend R4-S for use on track. If you use it without problems, you aren't driving very hard. No offense intended. IMO the stock STi pads are every bit as good if not better.
MattN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2003, 08:43 AM   #7
mav1c
Hoodbridge!
Moderator
 
Member#: 560
Join Date: Nov 1999
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Woodbridge, VA
Vehicle:
2006 STi, '11 A4
Crystal Gray, Silver

Default

Yeah, if you're going to invest in some track pads, get some real race pads.
mav1c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2003, 11:13 AM   #8
FSelekler
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 41410
Join Date: Aug 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Vehicle:
2006 987-120
Atlas Gray

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by CarbotechMatt
I do not recommend R4-S for use on track. If you use it without problems, you aren't driving very hard. No offense intended. IMO the stock STi pads are every bit as good if not better.
My experiences have been different. Is there a specific reason you think that way; compound shortcommings, or some other thing I am not aware of?
FSelekler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2003, 03:52 PM   #9
MattN
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 24710
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Shelby, NC
Default

Quote:
Is there a specific reason you think that way;
My personal experience and my observations of friends who have attempted to use R4-S on track. On the street, they are very good. Driven aggressivly on track, they are not.

Quote:
compound shortcommings,
Not enough fade resistance for track use. Which is why they have an R4 compound (notice the lack of "S")

Oh, and what mav1c said. Too many people IMO try to make a street pad work on track. Very few succeed. You are a rare case where it seems to work.

Last edited by MattN; 10-14-2003 at 04:00 PM.
MattN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2003, 04:52 PM   #10
FSelekler
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 41410
Join Date: Aug 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Vehicle:
2006 987-120
Atlas Gray

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by CarbotechMatt


My personal experience and my observations of friends who have attempted to use R4-S on track. On the street, they are very good. Driven aggressivly on track, they are not.

Not enough fade resistance for track use. Which is why they have an R4 compound (notice the lack of "S")

Oh, and what mav1c said. Too many people IMO try to make a street pad work on track. Very few succeed. You are a rare case where it seems to work.
I actually do alternate between R4 pads and R4-Ss. I understand the differences. But I am not a club racer, hence majority of the time the R4S pads have been quite good to me, expcept if it is a long track (2+ mi.).

I also know that CarboTech run their products through some very grueling conditions; however, I do not have personal experience with them and don't ever say anything on the boards for or against them.

However, the person originally asking the question is going to an HPDE and not run in races. I cannot find it in me to recommend full competition compound on to Red5001's car then have him drive to his first intersection and not stop because brakes are not up to operating tempreture.

I certainly do not run hard enough in HPDEs to have street/auto-x compounds give way. R4S pads have been very good even with OEM brake fluids. And frankly, in my circles of trackers, there are many that use R4S and R4 compounds and many that use various Carbotechs (I really am not a "rarity" )

I think when we are making a recommendation, we should keep in mind how the person will be utilizing the product, rather than say "for track go with xxx, that's it." Red5001 is going, probably, to his first HPDE and even asking about the brake fluids; which leads me to believe he is a novice. Do you really think it is a good idea for a novice to go with full competition compound pads without knowing how to use them? It is really not a question, I don't think it is a good idea.

Also, I think Red5001's suggestion of Panther plus pads are similar in nature to the Porterfield R4Ss, are they not?

Any how, I value your input tremendously and respect your knowledge and experiences; my responses are not intended to be controversial, I am truly trying to learn about brakes, and how manufacturers and vendors think about these various situations. But at the same time, I think we should be careful how we recommend products and approaches. One size does not fit all, otherwise we would not have all these different pad compounds
FSelekler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2003, 05:32 PM   #11
mav1c
Hoodbridge!
Moderator
 
Member#: 560
Join Date: Nov 1999
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Woodbridge, VA
Vehicle:
2006 STi, '11 A4
Crystal Gray, Silver

Default

Quote:
I think when we are making a recommendation, we should keep in mind how the person will be utilizing the product, rather than say "for track go with xxx, that's it." Red5001 is going, probably, to his first HPDE and even asking about the brake fluids; which leads me to believe he is a novice. Do you really think it is a good idea for a novice to go with full competition compound pads without knowing how to use them? It is really not a question, I don't think it is a good idea.
I agree, maybe a FULL race pad wouldn't be the best to start with your first time out, but I would at least run a "club race" pad. My first track experience was with stock pads and fluid. BIG mistake. I overheated the stock brakes (on a 99 RS) after the 4th lap and had to be easy on them the rest of the day. Fist hing I did when I got home was research brakes for the track.

Another thing to consider is that a novice may even be HARDER on the brakes because they tend to brake earlier and over a longer distance, which is worse than going in late and getting HARD on the brakes, for a shorter time. I don't think there will be a HUGE difference from the stock pads to some track pads as far as the way the car performs, especially to someone that's never run on the track before. You do want to be more careful on the street if you have track pads as they will not have the initial grip, but as long as you know that, you should be OK going too and from the track, but definitely not running them all the time. If you're that worried about it, put the track pads on at the track, but then you won't have a chance to really bed them in.

I think it will make the first time at the track a better experience because you won't have to worry about the brakes fading, and can concentrate more on your driving. Another reason is that the STi is a FAST car and will require some hard braking from speeds I could only hope for. Even for a first timer.
mav1c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2003, 05:43 PM   #12
MattN
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 24710
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Shelby, NC
Default

Quote:
I think Red5001's suggestion of Panther plus pads are similar in nature to the Porterfield R4Ss, are they not?
Actually our Bobcat is very comparable to the R4-S, performance-wise. Panther Plus is much more similar in performance to R4. I ran R4 and P+ back to back on the same car at the same track on the same day and found them to be almost identicle in performance. This was well before I became an employee of Carbotech. I ran R4-S pads at the same track the previous year and took them off after the first session. Note: I am not a beginner.

OK so how's this: R4-S might be pretty good for a beginner, but I would expect that pad to eventually not be enough as the driver progresses.

It's a moot point anyway, as I believe I talked to red5001 already today

Later,
Matt
MattN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2003, 06:15 PM   #13
red5001
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 33942
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Roochester, NY
Vehicle:
04.5 STI
wrb

Default

You did talk to me today and I order a set of panther plus pads. Thanks for the help.

But just for the record some background on my question. I am a beginner but I am familiar with how brakes systems work and how different temps require different pads and fluid. I have raced before mostly on dirt or snow and the situation is different. However, I am not very familiar with the different products that are on the market and not familiar with the pad compound that comes in the STI. Plus I don't plain change pads for street and track use. I plain on going to more then one HPDE event. Thanks for everyone’s input and advice it always helps.

Shawn
red5001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2003, 09:38 PM   #14
FSelekler
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 41410
Join Date: Aug 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Vehicle:
2006 987-120
Atlas Gray

Default

Great, points well made, customer happy, issue resolved :thumbup:

I'll keep using my R4S and R4 pads for now
FSelekler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2003, 01:19 AM   #15
Chaste Automotive
Vendor
 
Member#: 44921
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Default

We just got two different compounds of PAGID pads in for the STi Brembos (we also have Blues for the subaru 4-pot) I have found that with LFB I cook the stock pads fairly quickly while the blues are more resistant to fade. THe 4-2-1 compound is a little less aggressive than the Blues. The blues have a very good mix of cold stopping power and fade resistance. If you want a killer track only pad then the Ferodo DS3000 is the way to go.
Chaste Automotive is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2003, 08:16 AM   #16
MattN
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 24710
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Shelby, NC
Default

Quote:
also have Blues for the subaru 4-pot)
Hawk Blue? What the Hawk part number?

Edit: Nevermind, I see it's for the Subaru non-Brembo calipers.

Last edited by MattN; 10-15-2003 at 11:49 AM.
MattN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2003, 01:44 PM   #17
Oldnslow
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4572
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Seattle,Washington,USA
Vehicle:
2015 WRX
WRB

Default

STI is just way too fast for Porterfield R4S pads on a road course(probably the stock pads in the STI are akin to Porterfield R4S). At least go to R4. I'm not sure if Pagid Orange pads are available for the Brembos on the STI, but if so they are fantastic--have used them for many years on my 911 track car. Some folks prefer Pagid Black, but they are harder on rotors.
Oldnslow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2003, 01:50 PM   #18
FSelekler
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 41410
Join Date: Aug 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Vehicle:
2006 987-120
Atlas Gray

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by CarbotechMatt
Hawk Blue? What the Hawk part number?

Edit: Nevermind, I see it's for the Subaru non-Brembo calipers.
Matt,

You probably missed my response to you in the evoM forums; Porterfield has STi pads with the Hawk Blue compound, they get the material and cut it according to Brembo specs basically. So, it is available.
FSelekler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2003, 08:44 PM   #19
MattN
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 24710
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Shelby, NC
Default

No, I saw the response. What Porterfield *used* to do (I don't know if this is still the case) is they would take a large donar pad, and whittle away at it until you had the pad you want.

(sound of Matt rooting around old inventory) Hmm......is this a set of Blues for the Evo/STi caliper we made years ago I see sitting on my shelf.......?????
MattN is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Stock STI brake pads... how much thickness for a track day? tracks Brakes, Steering & Suspension 20 06-12-2006 09:27 AM
2002 wrx brake pads for street/track that still work in winter Impreza01 Brakes, Steering & Suspension 28 11-13-2005 09:46 PM
Need brake pads for a track day, where do I get Hawk HP plus? Chris51080 Brakes, Steering & Suspension 6 06-23-2003 11:59 PM
brake pads on the track sorakiu New England Impreza Club Forum -- NESIC 12 08-08-2002 11:46 AM
Brake pads for the track? Ru fan New England Impreza Club Forum -- NESIC 5 02-13-2002 06:12 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2015 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.