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Old 06-19-2000, 01:31 PM   #1
Travis R
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I know that Chris (the blue RS) has the KYB adjustable struts. Everything else is stock. And the green RS has stock suspension too, as far as I know. He was racing STS, so he could have had a sway bar, but it sure doesn't look like it. He actually spun the car a few times. We were all wondering how he did it. We later found out that he was running the stock RE-92's on the back with AVS Intermediates on the front. That explained it.
I thought the same thing about that corvette. But apparently it's normal for those kinds of cars, I think it was dumping oil onto the headers (A LOT of oil). It did the same thing at that turn all weekend.
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Old 06-19-2000, 03:47 PM   #2
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I have never seen a green 98. Cool..
Very different...

Nice pics guys,

Paul G.
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Old 06-19-2000, 03:59 PM   #3
Greg I
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KC: could you explain that? Body roll such as you experience with a stock RS (suspension and engine) doesn't seem to do much other than promote understeer. Was I not using it right?

[edit] Eliminating body roll doesn't eliminate weight transfer.

Nice pictures. Was the person in the Celica pushing that car very hard?

Greg.

[This message has been edited by Greg I (edited June 19, 2000).]
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Old 06-19-2000, 04:14 PM   #4
ColinL
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Of course eliminating body roll doesn't eliminate weight transfer!

But it does help the load. If you're trying to turn, like the blue RS is, it would certainly help to have more load on the front tires. Stiffen the rear.

It would also help to prevent camber change, something strut suspensions are known for and it's never a good thing. (look at the massive positive camber) Stiffen everything in this case, but make the rear stiffer to ensure load stays on the nose. We have 50% power to those front tires and they're doing all the turning too.
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Old 06-19-2000, 05:21 PM   #5
Chris F
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Talking

I spent most of the weekend trying to get some understeer into the car. Sunday I made some changes and got big time fast! The cars with the big rear bars had a tough time getting really fast in the fast sections because they were fighting oversteer. In the GS it seems that you can get enough adjustability in setup with allignment, shock settings and air pressure to be compettitive. As for lean it is not such a bad thing if used properly. If you are not leaning it over big time, you are not going fast enough in the turns! The Celica had made major improvements from the last time I met(National Tour FW), I think he went and put 2 deg camber in the front end. That car just has trouble putting the power down.
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Old 06-19-2000, 05:52 PM   #6
Greg I
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Just when I thought I understood oversteer, understeer, and weight transfer...

OK, what ColinL said was pretty much what I was inferring in my tongue-in-cheek comment.

Now, after that I get a bit lost:

"I spent most of the weekend trying to get some understeer into the car."

Why do you want understeer? What kind of suspension setup do you have? I found the RS would plow pretty consistently on throttle with an STi V suspension and 20mm rear bar running with Yokohama A520s (I didn't know any better when I got them -- that was the last time I made a purchase without doing research). How are you getting anything but lift-throttle oversteer? And if you want to reduce lift-throttle oversteer, how are you rotating the car?

"The cars with the big rear bars had a tough time getting really fast in the fast sections because they were fighting oversteer."

Really? I was never able to get my car to rotate on throttle the way I wanted it to; it would plow no matter what -- what kind of setups are these guys using? On dry pavement, it always felt to me like a very well-behaved FWD car that had a little bit less understeer on throttle than you'd expect. Wet was another story. Lift-throttle oversteer was very controllable, and only became a problem when I came in too hot or had the wheel turned too far (I learned that lesson real quick in the rain).

"The cars with the big rear bars had a tough time getting really fast in the fast sections because they were fighting oversteer."

Can someone explain this? I've been under the impression that body roll was inherently bad up to a point; I thought it worked like an elastic band, with the rolling car only transferring weight after the driver's inputs, and essentially making things a little more difficult to control, and adding to the potential for snap reaction from the car if you weren't paying attention.

Greg.

[This message has been edited by Greg I (edited June 19, 2000).]
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Old 06-19-2000, 07:18 PM   #7
ColinL
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A big fat rear bar can be a bad thing on a fast course. I've been very happy with my whiteline at 20mm and AGX struts @ 2/4 for the street, 3/6 for rougher autocross lots and 4/8 for smooth. (overdamped + bumps = very bad, bumpier than underdamped) This works because most of our regions courses are Miata courses-- slow and tight.

Well the divisional was FAST. After the first day I decided to run the bar at 18mm but I forgot to change it. So I ran 20mm, 4/6 both days. I think 18mm, 4/8 would have been better.

And as far as understeer, it depends on how much you are used to and how fast the course is. Same for oversteer.

But I still think any form of body roll is bad. It promotes camber change and forces inside tires to do very little except roll along for the ride. It's much better to keep all of the tires fully in contact with the road and some weight on the inside tires because increased load transfer does not linearly increase traction... If we take 200lb off the right side and put it on the left, we've lost more traction on the right than we've gained on the left. (source: Puhn, how to make your car handle)
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Old 06-20-2000, 12:28 AM   #8
Travis R
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Thumbs up more Houston Div solo2 pics.

Sorry these are a little late, but they are still pretty good. If the vehicle owners want a copy, there are larger versions to be had. 8x10 to be exact. I didn't take them, but drop me an e-mail and I can put you into contact with the photographer.
Steve almost has the front wheel off the ground in this one.

Chris F.

check out some of the other cars here: http://home.austin.rr.com/goce/index.htm
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Old 06-20-2000, 12:40 AM   #9
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WAAAAAY to much body roll, you guys need to increase your roll stiffness big time. I bet those cars have stock suspension.

Btw, that dude in the BP corvette sure likes to smoke his tires.
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Old 06-20-2000, 12:44 AM   #10
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Body Roll sometimes is a good thing.

I puts more weight over the tires that need them, if used properly.
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Old 06-20-2000, 07:01 AM   #11
Travis R
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The black celica has trouble putting the power down because he's still on street tires. He races with us in Austin. And he's actually still a novice. He just started at the beginning of this year. He's pretty good driver though. He would have won the street tire class (he raced in GS). I don't know how much camber he's got in the front, but I don't think it's 2 degrees.
I don't know Chris, I wouldn't say I was fighting over steer. Well except for the time that I spun, but that was because I was was off line (the car was pushing) and got into all the loose rubber. I think you had a couple of advantages that helped you turn in better times. You were probably able to keep more speed in the corners because of the wider tires and better alignment. How much camber do you run in the front? I probably asked you this at the race, but I forgot. You are also a better driver than I am. I will admit that I like using the larger rear bar and the lift throttle over steer to set the car up for the corners. This probably isn't the fastest way since I am slowing down every time I lift, sliding the car around. But it's alot of fun. And it's not like I had a lot of pressure to be smooth out there, being the only one in my class.
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Old 06-21-2000, 10:52 AM   #12
Chris F
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Whoa I had no idea when I made the post that I would stir it up so much. I did not mean to step on anybody's toes. I have my car set up with agx's and the alignment is the max camber we could muster, about 1.45 deg neg. in front with 0 toe. The divisional course had very fast transitions and the car was oversteering through them. I needed to get a little understeer into the car to make it go faster in the fast sections. I generally have the car set up to be a little tailhappy, but this course was to fast for that. With the slight understeer I was able to go much faster in those sections. The end result was that I got faster. I watched the other cars and could tell that in those sections that slight oversteer was limiting thier speed. Don't get me wrong I like the bigger rear bars, but they are not allowed in GS, and they do present new challenges in setup. I belive that in GS there is enough adjustability in setup between allignment, shock setting and air pressure to be competitive on most courses. The only exception I have found is very fast courses VS. Type R w/talented driver. I met one at the FW tour and he showed me who was boss! You are right on the money when you mention that the A/X should be all about fun. It is afterall an ameture sport and none of us make a living at it!
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Old 06-21-2000, 11:10 AM   #13
Travis R
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Exclamation

Don't worry my toes are fine.
-1.45 degrees! Good Lord. I've got -.7 in mine. No wonder the outside edges of my tires looked worse than yours. I need to get some more camber cranked in soon. Maybe I'll try playing with that eccentric bolt this weekend.
Chris, did you follow the link above? He's got quite a few pictures of you.
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Old 06-21-2000, 11:30 AM   #14
ColinL
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-1.45 isn't even enough, looking at those pics (which are a whole lot like my region's pics too.) I would guess something in the realm of -2.5 would be better up front. Obviously we're talking camber plates.

*gasp* maybe aluminum front swaybar links would be good, or even a bigger front swaybar.

body roll is the devil!
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Old 06-21-2000, 11:52 AM   #15
jamie394st
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OH WOW!! People actually got pics of the event. Thanks!!!

jamie...
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Old 06-21-2000, 01:01 PM   #16
Chris F
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ColinL has it right! We need about 2.5-3.5 deg neg camber in the front. I wish camber plates would be allowed in GS! I think they are allowed in STS. The added front end camber gives the car more front end grip and as a result it feels like you added a rear bar, ie more tailhappy! I think Andre is getting camber plates and new springs for the next divisional, I'll see what to do w/setup then.
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Old 06-21-2000, 02:16 PM   #17
Andre Vandenberg
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Hi all,
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Old 06-21-2000, 02:28 PM   #18
Andre Vandenberg
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Hi all,
Yeah, Chris I've got some Cusco's coming from Trey…… got my fingers crossed for them to be here for the divvies.
Earlier in the year I ran 3 degrees neg camber, and the car was awesome. The driver on the other hand still suffered from major internal vacuum I plan to start out at a 2.5 deg setting and go up or down from there.
The biggest problem with my car is to keep the nose down while accelerating out of the turns, as you saw on the video I shot of last Sundays torture event. But, I have a plan for that…
As for the oversteer problem in Houston…… I could deny it but then, you do have the proof of it on film don’t you?
Andre
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Old 06-21-2000, 03:30 PM   #19
Trey
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Thumbs up

Well we have most of Andre's parts here already. The plates should be here by Friday so we should be able to get Andre's car ready by this weekend.

I'll give you a call when the plates get here Andre so you can bring the car in and we'll get everything install and aligned here.

Trey
CobbTuning.com
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