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Old 11-11-2003, 10:37 PM   #1
3BadHabbits
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Impreza GC8 Chosing cams..TWE,COBB,Web?

I thought Cobb was the only company that made cams for the 2.5RS. As I just read and saw TWE and Web make cams. I also heard that Web and Cobb are pretty close. I went onto the Web Cams site last night and saw that they make a high RPM cam and "All range" cam (low to high end power). They didnt say anything about cores. Most likely have to send cores back. I just went to the Rallitek site and saw that TWE makes the cams and the valve train.
Anyone using any of these cams in their cars? I just wanted to know the differences before i make a decision. I will not be turboing this car.
Thanks Nick
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Last edited by 3BadHabbits; 11-14-2003 at 02:18 AM.
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Old 11-11-2003, 11:48 PM   #2
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3BadHabbits - IIRC, Cobb's cams are done by Web.

There's a few guys on here that have the TWE's SOHC cams as well as valvetrain etc.

If you're not turbo'ing the car, and you're thinking of doing the cams, you may want to consider getting a crate motor from TWE. Then you'll only need to swap your accessories off your stock motor onto the crate motor.
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Old 11-12-2003, 12:31 AM   #3
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I dont want to spend all that money on a crate engine. If im going to do that I might as well just pull the engine i have now and build it. I didnt really want to pull the heads off either. I can get to the cams while the engine is in the car.
I really didnt want to do the whole valve train if neccessary. Im looking for mild cams to improve the whole rev range. I pretty sure that the stock valve train would be fine.
Anybody have just the cams?
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Old 11-12-2003, 12:31 AM   #4
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Thanks for the help GTBGUY
_Nick
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Old 11-12-2003, 01:03 PM   #5
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3BadHabbits - IIRC the TWE cams are slightly more radical then the Cobb ones giving more gains when you couple it with other N/A pieces. Hence it'll require the valvetrain (due to more lift). You can't really get to the valve train without removing the heads, which is why you may want to consider a crate motor as it's all done. Much quicker to drop in a full motor then ripping the heads out.
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Old 11-12-2003, 01:44 PM   #6
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I'm gonna second the TWE crate motor. You can always

a) sell ur current EJ25 to make some/a lot of it up.
b) Keep it as a backup motor or something.

TWE has GREAT customer service, and their stuff is top-notch. I had their headers/hi-flo cat on my RS. Humina, humina. Especially if you are NOT doing the labor yourself, I imagine its less hours to pull out the whole motor than do the heads. (not sure 'bout this, you'll have to check on it).

Don
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Old 11-12-2003, 01:49 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by GTBGUY
3BadHabbits - IIRC the TWE cams are slightly more radical then the Cobb ones giving more gains when you couple it with other N/A pieces. Hence it'll require the valvetrain (due to more lift). You can't really get to the valve train without removing the heads, which is why you may want to consider a crate motor as it's all done. Much quicker to drop in a full motor then ripping the heads out.
Unless they have a new grind I don't know about it actually is the reverse, at least according to Keith at TWE. The Cobb cams are more aggressive. But if you are doing your own work, you can't get springs and retainers from Cobb. TWE is the best source I know of for those. And if you are going with an aggressive cam like TWE's or Cobb's, I highly recommend upgrading your valvetrain while the heads are off...
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Old 11-12-2003, 02:13 PM   #8
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Check out a company called Paeco. I don't think they have much of a website but I have a catalog of theirs and they have 3 different grinds for the EJ25 (SOHC and DOHC). Best of all their cams are only $210 each with an exchange.

Specs on the Paeco SBD-6500 ("street grind") for DOHC EJ25:
int: 28/62 exh: 68/22 Duration: 270 Lift: .284"
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Old 11-12-2003, 02:36 PM   #9
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Matt Monson - I'm referring to the TWE SOHC cams vs. the Cobb street cams.

wistful - yup, labor hrs for the heads would be slightly longer then pulling the whole motor out.
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Old 11-12-2003, 03:47 PM   #10
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what's the going rate on a 'crate' motor?
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Old 11-12-2003, 03:59 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by m750
what's the going rate on a 'crate' motor?
And what have they done to it? I looked on the TWE site and it isn't listed as a product...
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Old 11-12-2003, 05:05 PM   #12
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m750 - price would depend on what you want. That's pretty standard.

Matt Monson - what's done depends on the state of tune you want. That's like crate motors for other imports. I think they're special order only. There's a few people who've gotten crate motors from TWE.
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Old 11-13-2003, 09:12 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by GTBGUY
m750 - price would depend on what you want. That's pretty standard.
Can you at least provide a round-about figure?

Say it's a crate with just cams and an upgraded valvetrain - nothing big.
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Old 11-13-2003, 09:58 AM   #14
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You make a suggestion that this would the be a cost effective solution, but don't give a general idea of cost...
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Old 11-13-2003, 12:01 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by GTBGUY
m750 - price would depend on what you want. That's pretty standard.

Matt Monson - what's done depends on the state of tune you want. That's like crate motors for other imports. I think they're special order only. There's a few people who've gotten crate motors from TWE.
yeah, what M750 said, give us a ballpark based on what these others have done. In my experience "crate motors" generally come from Japan and are factory, but even the ones I've seen from tuners in the states are some standard configuration like a Type R engine from Mugen or the like...
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Old 11-13-2003, 01:43 PM   #16
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m750 - it becomes cost effective as you'll be spending more time removing just the heads to do the cams and valve train, vs. getting a crate motor, removing the stock motor, swapping accessories over and installing the full motor.

Matt Monson - the reason why there isn't a "set" price, is the fact that there are motor variants (DOHC vs SOHC), as well as the state of tune (ie: C/R's, N/A v.s F.I, etc).

Some may choose to go uprated rods if they're going F.I or really fast spinning N/A motors, whereas if you're looking for something milder, you may not need to replace the rods with uprated forged pieces.
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Old 11-13-2003, 02:05 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by GTBGUY
m750 - it becomes cost effective as you'll be spending more time removing just the heads to do the cams and valve train, vs. getting a crate motor, removing the stock motor, swapping accessories over and installing the full motor.

Matt Monson - the reason why there isn't a "set" price, is the fact that there are motor variants (DOHC vs SOHC), as well as the state of tune (ie: C/R's, N/A v.s F.I, etc).

Some may choose to go uprated rods if they're going F.I or really fast spinning N/A motors, whereas if you're looking for something milder, you may not need to replace the rods with uprated forged pieces.
Damn, man. Just give a figure for some random configuration, then. I think we're all intelligent enough to know that different attribute will cost us more money than others. Give us a baseline and we'll do the rest of the math ourselves.
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Old 11-13-2003, 02:27 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Layman
Damn, man. Just give a figure for some random configuration, then. I think we're all intelligent enough to know that different attribute will cost us more money than others. Give us a baseline and we'll do the rest of the math ourselves.
Exactly. I obviously know of the dozens of variables that can come into play here. But the guy who started this thread is looking for a mild NA build with cams, so give us a price on that set up. Or do you not know and have just heard through the grapevine that they exist and don't actually know anyone who has purchased a TWE prepped engine...
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Old 11-13-2003, 02:32 PM   #19
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Example: Irish Mike's DOHC EJ25 World Challenge Motor (8500rpm redline)

For $12,000US+core+shipping:
- Full headwork Stage 3+ (re-working combustion chamber, P&P, 5 angle valve job, reworking of the valve seat area etc)
-Uprated Valvetrain (springs, Ti retainers, shim under bucket conversion)
- 13:1 C/R Pistons w/ coatings, rings etc, lightened wrist pins
- Knife-edged crank, fully dynamically balanced rotating assembly with rods and pistons. (within 0.01%)
- Lightened, shot-peened stock rods fitted w/ ARP bolts.
- Assembly, new gaskets, bearings etc.
- Modified P&P'd intake manifold
- Headers etc not included/
- Full cryo treatment.
(Options: Uprated forged H beam rods)

Stage 2 SOHC N/A crate motor $6000US+core+shipping [runs on 92 octane]:
- Stage 2 headwork
- Cams w/ valvetrain upgrade (cams, springs, retainers)
- 11.2:1 C/R pistons w/ rings etc.
- Dynamically balanced rods, crank, pistons.
- Shot-peened stock rods fitted w/ ARP bolts.
- Assembly, new gaskets, bearings etc.
(Options: uprated H beam rods, piston coatings, cryo treatment)

Last edited by GTBGUY; 11-13-2003 at 03:12 PM.
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Old 11-13-2003, 02:47 PM   #20
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these crate motors are in no way more cost effective than having a shop put your cams in. You aren't even comparing apples to apples. for those prices, buy a j-spec sti block w/ ecu and tranny, and put that in.
AO
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Old 11-13-2003, 03:06 PM   #21
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m750 - my point was the the labor involved in removing the heads to do the cams and valvetrain is the same if not more labor then putting a full crate motor in. That's called a "fixed" cost. The "varible' cost in this sense is what you decide to put in.

N/A build-ups have always been more expensive then F.I. So comparing a JDM spec FI motor swap with a N/A build is quite irrelavent.

You should see how much the N/A SYMS and CUSCO motors cost! Now those you could buy a new WRX for the cost of the motor.
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Old 11-13-2003, 04:08 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by GTBGUY
m750 - my point was the the labor involved in removing the heads to do the cams and valvetrain is the same if not more labor then putting a full crate motor in. That's called a "fixed" cost. The "varible' cost in this sense is what you decide to put in.
That's a pretty rediculous comparison. The guy is just talking about installing some cams. If he was talking about cams and pistons, then maybe it would be appropriate to start a break-even analysis regarding labor, but that's not the case.

Next time, instead of getting us all excited about the prospect of a (relatively) cheap upgrade, defer to full disclosure and just give all the information upfront. That way we can decide for ourselves whether your comparison is even remotely logical.

Thanks for the data, though.
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Old 11-13-2003, 04:38 PM   #23
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Layman - the reason why the option of a crate motor was mentioned is because on the choice of cam upgrade (ie: either the TWE SOHC stage 2's or the Cobb Spicy) both would benefit from a valvetrain upgrade. And to do this valvetrain upgrade, it will require the removal of the heads.

Believe me, trying to put heads back into the car and torquing them to spec according to the correct pattern is a real PITA.

So the logic is that IFF (IF and only IF) the choice of cams requires the removal of the heads, why not just get a crate motor from the start, and then there'll be no need to crack open the motor down the line.
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Old 11-13-2003, 06:09 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by 3BadHabbits
I dont want to spend all that money on a crate engine. If im going to do that I might as well just pull the engine i have now and build it. I didnt really want to pull the heads off either. I can get to the cams while the engine is in the car.
I really didnt want to do the whole valve train if neccessary. Im looking for mild cams to improve the whole rev range. I pretty sure that the stock valve train would be fine.
Anybody have just the cams?
And it appears that all this thread jacking has scared off the thread poster who really just wanted to know about the cams...
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Old 11-13-2003, 06:13 PM   #25
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eh, the site is about exchange of information. He got the info he wanted on them, and we got to find out how much a sick N/A motor costs.
AO
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