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Old 11-16-2003, 09:14 PM   #1
subiedreamin
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Default goal= faster than wrx

I was just wondering if anybody out there had taken an all motor rs and made it quicker 0-60 or 1/4 than a wrx stock?

or is it just easier/more cost effective to go the turbo route

thanx
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Old 11-16-2003, 09:16 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally posted by subiedreamin


or is it just easier/more cost effective to go the turbo route

thanx

Thats probpably the way to go
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Old 11-16-2003, 09:18 PM   #3
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turbo is alot easier...

my friend had an RST and i had my wrx and went from a light... with like 5lbs, by the time i shifted into 2nd (~35ish?)on the wrx i just said forget it... because the rst already pulled away
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Old 11-16-2003, 09:21 PM   #4
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an RS-t is much faster than a wrx, but also much more like a grenade.
AO
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Old 11-16-2003, 10:04 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by m750
an RS-t is much faster than a wrx, but also much more like a grenade.
AO


To add to this, an all-motor 2.5 RS might be faster than a stock WRX, but it too is also more like a ticking timebomb that could need constant rebuilds.

PM Dcoty or one of the other high-output N/A guys and they might be able to give you some direction if you're bent on staying N/A. As for turbo advice, check out the Aftermarket Forced Induction (AFI, like the band ) forum.
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Old 11-16-2003, 10:13 PM   #6
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Default Re: goal= faster than wrx

Quote:
Originally posted by subiedreamin
I was just wondering if anybody out there had taken an all motor rs and made it quicker 0-60 or 1/4 than a wrx stock?

or is it just easier/more cost effective to go the turbo route

thanx
What they said above. Answers yes and yes. Dcoty and Andres Rodriguez.
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Old 11-16-2003, 11:16 PM   #7
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if you were to get the basic bolt-ons(exh, intake, headers, pully, etc.) and heads/cams/spring/retainers(a new head assembly) you COULD get about 200 whp which is ABOUT 30 more than a stock w.
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Old 11-16-2003, 11:27 PM   #8
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If memory serves Dcoty has a built motor utilizing most of Cobb's gear but lacks a few things like such as equal length headers and he has run something around a 14.25 @ 94.5. This time was done before good tuning on his LINK standalone system I think. He also hasnt stripped the car to the best of my knowledge or installed a dog box type tranny.

I believe his dyno sheet netted 165 wheel hp and something around 220 flywheel...again, this is just a ballpark figure that I remember. The real tie up for his horsepower is most likely the stock intake manifold that has a lame runner system...even extrude honed to hell it wont fix the problem. Dcoty i believe is looking into a custom split plenum manifold and Josh from Cobbtuning is building his own ITB (independant throttle body) system.

Please dont dispute these ballpark figures by like 35+ wheel horsepower unless you have a qualified link or quarter mile times and trap speeds to back it.

Opinions are like noses...


EDIT: Found a recent post by Dcoty for reference:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=449314

Hey guys,

I would say 280 hp is high for sure. Without a new intake mnaifold no way are we breaking 250 hp.

I dynod 161.8 and i went back to the 1/4 track too! I had my 17s on though, that was dumb but I diddnt have any tools to swap my tires and I went on the last track day.

Anyway, ill edit this post later with all the numbers (slips are still down in the car), but it was a 14.10@ 95.xx with a 60" of a mid-low 1.9. I had a 1.8 that day but I could not replicate it. I had only a limited time before the bracket racing started too, i wish i had a few more runs, but i had quite a few.

Anyway Im knocking on 13's door but no one is home yet. My brother picked up the aluminum for the new intake manifold and all he needs to do is order the runners and we can start welding. It will be done by xmas.

Later guys!
Dan

....And another quote from the same thread:

heres my mod list for those who are curious:
Strommung cat back
random tech high flow cat
borla headers
cobb CAI
UD pulley
closed deck block
lightend/balanced/knifeedged crank
bored just shy of 2.6 litres
oliver forged con rods
CP 11:1 compression pistons
Cobb racer cams
ported heads
cobb springs
cobb retainers
custom made ss valves
9lb flywheel
bully 6-puck clutch
STi tranny mounts
STi motor mounts
LINK stand alone
8,000 rpm redline

Thats it, i think I shoudl do some superlight wheels and with the RA gears and new intake mnaifold I think it should be some good improvements.

Farfrumwork- I am considering equal length headers for my cra as well, but I just dont know which company to go with. Brullen is high on my list right now.



DISCLAIMER: Sorry for all the quoting Dcoty, just trying to help the thread starter. Dont want anyone to think im a wierdo-stalker type


Last edited by Snagtastic; 11-16-2003 at 11:39 PM.
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Old 11-17-2003, 03:12 AM   #9
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spend 6k and you'll get beaten by a car with a boost controller, no my idea of smart money


turbo it and have some fun
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Old 11-17-2003, 11:08 AM   #10
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IF all you want is to beat a stock WRX in your car, gettting all the standard bolt ons and a set of cams will do it. But the need for speed is addictive and once you get there you will likely want more. The real question you need to ask yourself in advance is will it be enough.

Snagtastic gives a pretty good run down of an NA build, and Dan's in particular. I am currently doing a build not dissimilar to Dan's. To date, I am in for close to $6k and I haven't even started work on the bottom end yet, which I expect to run me another $2500 or thereabouts.That top price includes CAI and engine back exhaust. in the end I hope to meet or exceed Dan's dyno numbers.

But if it is about $$$/HP, then a turbo is the way to. A turbo kit like the AVO will quickly put you well beyond a WRX, but is still costs you $4k in addition to about a grand for the exhaust...

So, cheapest to equal a WRX is the first option. But if you want want more, pick one of the other two and just remember that things can break and having a little rainy day fund beyond your build plans is key...
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Old 11-17-2003, 11:26 AM   #11
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Beating a WRX where?

I ran my 01 2.5RS on the road courses of the northeast and used another instructor running his WRX in showroom stock as my target. I set my car up for street stock (1 class up). At NHIS (lots of corners, braking), I was just about even with him in lap times when I finished. Here's what the car had:

Weight reduction of about 150 lbs. This was all bolt off stuff that was re-installed when the car was sold this past spring.
4 pot front brakes
H6 rear brakes
front brake ducting from the airdam
Tein medium springs
Tokiko/Bridgestone struts
Direct ram air from front spoiler into stock airbox.
Hood scoop replaced with fiberglas panel for weight and aero.
Rear wing removed.
Tires were Yoko 032R on stock RS wheels.

jack
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Old 11-17-2003, 01:12 PM   #12
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Like Matt said, if your only goal is to have a fast car that can beat a stock WRX then NA is a great way to go.

You could turbo the car too, but then again...your on the wrong section of the board for this arent you?

There is something to be said about a NA car that cant be done by any amount of boost: Bragging rights, less things to go wrong, lighter front end, longevity of the motor in general.

Besides the perks, if you were to theoretically go for boost, you would need much more than a turbo kit as far as im concerned.

First of all, the kit for over $4,000 with fuel upgrades.

Next, a clutch and soon transmission due to the torque it would generate over stock (and over a wrx).

At this point you would need a real air metering and fuel system to run a reliable turbo, so that leaves you with waiting for a reflash to come out (I believe cobb will soon), or doing a standalone...either one will cost you 500-2000 bucks.

Did you ever install a quality exhaust system? It needs serious flow to compensate for the turbo, that is unless you already have a good NA exhaust installed prior to the kit. If not, please add $600 as you past "Go".

Oh crap, now the car runs great and is fast as hell...but you have those icky old high compression, low quality parts that make up your bottom end. Ok, so all you really have to do here is drop in a STI shortblock or EJ22t one to compensate for the pressure, then you can also turn up the boost. You land on Park Place, please pay the owner $1400.

See what im getting at? Its much cheaper and less hassle to do an all motor setup, especially if your planning on mild bolt-ons plus cams that will get you nearly as fast as a WRX stock. If you do choose a full engine build like Dcoty or Matt Monson, you can push the envelope for speed and really impress people (the only real prob i see is the intake manifold which is being addressed slowly).

Anyone can install a turbocharger to a motor, turn up the boost while retarding the timing so it doesnt knock, and run some fast times. Then again, the guy in the SRT-4 who has an exhaust system and chip is laughin cause you cant even touch his timeslips for less than about 10 grand.

Or you could lose to a WRX by a carlength in the quarter mile, wait for him to ask what kind of turbo you have and pop the hood to show him the lack of a snail shell...imagine how sad he will be.

Normally asprirated also offers the most linear powerband, best F/R weight distribution, durable on stock components, setup you can get.

If I was going for maximum speed and didnt care how I did it, I would probably just sell my RS and buy a WRX or STI.

Part per part the STI is a better bargain than building any RS or WRX up to its level. Hell, its got a $7,000 tranny/center differential alone

Anyways, if someone wants to open a debate on FI vs NA lets do that on another thread and avoid sidetracking this one. Remember, everytime you threadjack a post...a trucker runs over a kitten.
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Old 11-17-2003, 01:27 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jack ffr1846
Beating a WRX where?
Indeed, that is the question. My almost unmodded 2.5GT (only rear swaybar and front and read strut braces) beat quite a few WRX's at the Tampa Subaru Challenge a few weeks ago! And when you look at the PAX scores (adjusting for class) I did even better.

Actually I didn't do as well as I'd hoped I would, but I was at the limit of my ability to handle the car as it currently runs. I need to improve both (me and the car) to get better.

When I came out of a tight turn and wanted to accelerate, the car wouldn't deliver. It understeered nasty on two very tough left turns. And there were times that I just didn't pick the right line or proper entry speed for certain sections.

I need experience and some instruction. My car needs suspension work and whatever I can do to make it faster but stay in STS.

So, where do you want to beat a WRX? It might not take as much as you think.
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Old 11-19-2003, 11:35 PM   #14
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All good suggestions - But...

The cheapest way to beat a WRX with an RS is to do a cobb intake and catback and then add a 75 shot of nitrous, with a proECM timing retard box to pull timing 2- 4 degrees to keep it safe

The way to do it all motor is above, but all motor is more expensive than an AVO turbo kit which has a programable ECU to keep it safe, and makes 212whp for a little over $4000 (plus $650 catback + $600 install).

You can spend twice that all motor and only make 175whp like AndresRS01.
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Old 11-20-2003, 01:40 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by m750
an RS-t is much faster than a wrx, but also much more like a grenade.
AO
Haha There is something kinda Kinky about playing with explosive's from what i heard an 2.5 bored out .30 over is
about a 2.6 and with the right mods Heads\Headers and anything
that can push the N/a horsepower up I bet it would Be pretty easy to beat the Wrx ()()Light Is THE KEY()()
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Old 11-20-2003, 07:53 PM   #16
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I too would say go with the AVO kit
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Old 11-22-2003, 11:28 AM   #17
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OK so what i'm getting from you guys is:
intake, headers, exhaust, pulleys, and cams

are we saying that i would be pretty close to a wrx in that form? I figure with some practice a little luck at the launch I would stand a chance.

as for the NOS, i want to stay away from that because to me its kind of like adding a turbo, both have times when they don't help your speed. Plus i like the idea of having 'simpler' setup that still spanks most cars on the road or track
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Old 11-22-2003, 11:37 AM   #18
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If I were you i would do all the bolt ons, ported heads, agressive cams and call it a day, I remember my car being dead even with a stock wrx with that set up. Maybe a ligghtend flywheel and a new clutch might be in order.

Dan
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Old 11-22-2003, 07:32 PM   #19
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intake/catback/underdrive pully/clutch + lightweight flywheel = almost stock wrx 5speed performance.

I actually walked a automatic wrx w/ full exhaust .

-justin
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Old 12-17-2003, 01:07 AM   #20
Section 8
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My car was a tenth or two faster than a stock WRX (I'd have to dig out the time slips). I spent $1000.00 on a used SYMS exhaust header with a cat, $300.00 for a muffler shop header back with a DeltaFlo muffler $400.00 installed for a set of Cobb Club Racer cams, a JC sports intake that was cut and filter replaced with a PRM filter and a 3 inch exhaust steel inlet to the fender (Basically a cobb intake) bought used for $160.00.

THis was 2 years ago, and parts of equal or better quality are available now for less.

Total: $1860.00

1/4 in 14.6

My car was significently faster than alot of stock WRX's because people couldn't launch ther turbo cars and get a 60' of under 2 seconds. THe guy that could drive, was behind me the whole way, but creeping up at the end.

Greg
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Old 12-17-2003, 01:28 AM   #21
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I hate to say this and sound like a hater to all the guys who have worked/are working real hard on a N/A build, but if you want N/A power, get a honda with a b18c motor. Subaru engines are asking for boost, altough to properly boost an RS, it will take quite a build if you want to run high boost, which is something I would like to do someday. Now I just need to find the money.
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Old 12-17-2003, 01:55 AM   #22
Section 8
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And you dress like all of you buddies.

Its different. Its not about peak HP and the fastest 1/4 mile. Alot of people fabricate their own parts, thus making it really hard to duplicate, and satisfying. A well tuned rev happy NA engine is really fun to drive, and there isn't one currently available in AWD form.

THe most ironic thing is that you WANT to make your slow car faster, and telling people who have already been doing something about it, how they should do it. Your "planning", talking about it, your the jackass that is always saying "just wait until my car is done".

Oh, but I forgot, a turbo RS is the fastest thing on the planet, and you will rule all once it finally rolls out of the garage.

The world doesn't revolve around NASIOC and turboed RS's. You must not have spent much time around fast cars for an attitude like yours. Particulary since you have admitted that you have no money??? WTH? You can talk down to someone doing their own thing by saying that there is a better way for something, and in the same post say that you don't have any money to do what you want to do, much less what they are doing?

Someone will ALWAYS have a faster car than you, and some will ALWAYS have more money than you. Get use to it, because it isn't EVER going to change, no matter what you think of yourself or your car or what you think that you are going to do to your car.


You need to loose the arogance.

What the hell are you even doing in this forum in the first place if all you want is a turboed RS?
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Old 12-17-2003, 01:04 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Section 8
A well tuned rev happy NA engine is really fun to drive, and there isn't one currently available in AWD form.
Everyone seems to forget the SVX..... built from the factory the EG33 will take 7500 rpms no problem. The h6 will fit into gc8 with modification. Trans bolts up, as im using a 03 forester trans. Also, u can use the R180 diff and put your gears into it. for the price that you can put an EG33 into a GC8 you would be destroying anything with simiar spending.
phil
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Old 12-17-2003, 02:28 PM   #24
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Hey Phil,

THe SVX was only available with an auto. The example was of a factory stock car that didn't need to be fiddled with, because its the law to turbo it acording the the previous poster.


I would love to put a heated up H6 EZ30 into my car, but until they decide to make heads for it that have an exhaust port for each cylinder, I don't want to mess around with one (they only have 2 exhaust ports, one per head, making any sort of exhaust tuning hopeless).

I was under the impression that an EG33/EJ33 (what is correct anyway) didn't fit in an Impreza?

Greg
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Old 12-18-2003, 05:10 PM   #25
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its EG33,
its been done before by a member who was visiting us on the subaru SVX network. it only came with an auto, but the bolt pattern for all subaru transmission are the same. I installed a 5spd without any problems whatso ever. And the engine is 10x more incredible and responsive then it was before. I pulled a 14.9 on the motor, 181k miles. 3700lbs of pig. Im now runnign nitrous, but fried the ACT clutch before getting to the track and the RPS is goign in after winter. compression across all cylinders is above averege.
phil
ps thought you might enjoy this:

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