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Old 03-30-2009, 01:30 AM   #1
apsdsmracer
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Default EJ205 - Realistic Max Reliable HP Level?

Hi all,

I've done some searching and I'm sure everyone has a different opinion but what horsepower levels is the stock EJ205 good for with some degree of reliability?

I'm bolting on a green this week and shooting for 350whp with supporting mods.

What is a fair driveline loss percentage? 15%, 25%? What will she hold assuming all the right parts and a good tune?
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Old 03-30-2009, 01:39 AM   #2
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Nothing is really fact, but 400 whp is the typically accepted limit. Other mechanical/reliability limitations aside, the heads do not flow enough air to surpass 400 whp.

The other fact to consider is that all dynos read differently, so 1 man's 350whp is another man's 320whp. Few people hit 350whp, so experience is sort of limited.

Good luck with your upgrade. Hope you hit your goals.
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Old 03-30-2009, 01:46 AM   #3
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Your question has no real answer. Some people(Coolrex) have been pushing over 300whp for tens and tens of thousands of miles, while others see compression loss/bearing failure at lower power levels or fewer miles. It's kind of a crap shoot, and with the power range you're looking into, you should just expect to need a new shortblock at some point. I'd start saving now. Also, Jorge at P&L warns that over 20psi of boost will start to oval the cylinders in our open deck motors, and your Green isn't going to really shine until the mid 20's.

Your specific horsepower will depend largely on the dyno type, your tune, and your elevation. You won't be able to make as much power as someone at lower elevation with denser air, and correction factors are somewhat questionable in turbo applications. I wouldn't get too caught up in dyno numbers. Also, our driveline loss is in the 20-25% range, as close as I can tell; again, this will be at least somewhat influenced by what your particular dyno session reads out.
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Old 03-30-2009, 03:59 AM   #4
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The only way to extract 350whp from an EJ205 without significantly reducing the lifespan of your shortblock is with meth and an external wastegate. Stock EJ205s tend to spin rod bearings when you push them without taking the proper measures to protect your engine. I would consider 320-330 whp the safe maximum if you want to engine to last a long time.
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Old 03-30-2009, 04:25 AM   #5
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350whp for 100 miles now - but been over 290wtq for 15k miles

Its 99% in the tune.

As knowledgable as Jorge is - I completely disagree with him - 20psi from a gt35r might oval your cylinders - but 20psi from a 16/18g or less should not oval your cast iron lined cylinders out... I am a firm believer your pistons will crack at the crown before that happens...


-Jerod
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Old 03-30-2009, 05:54 AM   #6
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I'm at 136k miles right now.
Stock internals upgraded injectors.
A great tune goes a long way.

I've pushed vf22's, vf30's 18g's to 20+ psi for several thousand miles and still feel no loss in power.

Been modding it since I first bought it almost 2 years ago with 90k miles. I figure if **** hits the fan, just find another ej20 throw in some wiseco pistons, eagle rods, and port my heads, do it all over again. Not sure what kind of power I'm making but I had a nice highway run with an new m3 last night :] (I won)
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Old 03-30-2009, 11:22 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSarv View Post
350whp for 100 miles now - but been over 290wtq for 15k miles

Its 99% in the tune.

As knowledgable as Jorge is - I completely disagree with him - 20psi from a gt35r might oval your cylinders - but 20psi from a 16/18g or less should not oval your cast iron lined cylinders out... I am a firm believer your pistons will crack at the crown before that happens...


-Jerod
x2, more like 30 psi from a gt35r will "ovalize" the cylinders IMO

stock for stock, the ej205 block itself is stronger then any 2.5L EJ.

As far as reliability goes....if you beat on the car nonstop it will pop no matter what kind of engine it is..
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Old 03-30-2009, 11:56 AM   #8
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every motor is different but if you wanna be extra safe i would stay below 300whp. anywhere above 300 is risky. i've see a 18g setup tuned very well, pushing like 326whp and the rod bolts broke loose. it sucked.
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Old 03-30-2009, 12:07 PM   #9
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Thanks for the thoughts everyone - keep them coming!!

I figured everyone would have a different answer.

For clarity's sake I've already had a baseline pull with my stage 2 setup at a 1.15 CF to account for our mile high altitude - 217HP.

I have a goal of 350 on the same dyno and with the same correction factor but my tuner and I both think my new setup may be capable of more.

My question is how much will the motor take? Will the bottom end or the head gaskets go first? I've heard 420 crank is about the limit of the stock rotating assembly.
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Old 03-30-2009, 12:29 PM   #10
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Head gaskets should be good. The first thing to go will probably be a rod, piston, or bearing.
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Old 03-30-2009, 12:55 PM   #11
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Quote:
the heads do not flow enough air to surpass 400 whp.
Not true

Stock Rods are probably the biggest issue when making higher power. Pistons are nothing to get excited about, but with a good tune, E85, meth etc they will survive. Just have to be careful with the rods mainly. No exact limit.. but upper 3xx awhp is probably the highest you want to go if your looking for some long term.. whos to say though- too many variables... detune the mid 3.5-4.5k lets say and give the rods a little bit of a break, might help...
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Old 03-30-2009, 02:04 PM   #12
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Conservative tune and don't drive like a maniac will get you reliability and a good amount of power. Enough said, that's usually the main and general rule when it comes to questions like these. As said, its not about the numbers usually its more about how fast the car can climb in the most minimal time to hit target boost.
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Old 03-30-2009, 02:18 PM   #13
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I drive like a maniac at 22.5 psi on a vf39. I've not had any problems. But my buddy with an 18g spun a bearing
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Old 03-30-2009, 02:32 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mxpunk View Post
x2, more like 30 psi from a gt35r will "ovalize" the cylinders IMO

stock for stock, the ej205 block itself is stronger then any 2.5L EJ.

As far as reliability goes....if you beat on the car nonstop it will pop no matter what kind of engine it is..
x 3 been running over 300hp 21 pounds with an 18g. daily driver modded for about 20k now..no problems. a few runs on the dyno at 28lb but that was risky business. but i do have all supporting mods. just treat your car good and shell treat u good back!
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Old 03-30-2009, 02:53 PM   #15
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Old 03-30-2009, 03:19 PM   #16
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This one is even more relevant of a thread:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hlight=600+cfm

The EJ205 can make good reliable power and doesn't get enough credit IMO. Although, the drivetrain is what you should be really worried about...
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Old 03-30-2009, 03:30 PM   #17
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You shouldnt need a Green to hit 350whp, I think with meth an fp 18g should be right there, def. with a 20g
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Old 03-30-2009, 04:03 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Str8Gone View Post
You shouldnt need a Green to hit 350whp, I think with meth an fp 18g should be right there, def. with a 20g
No way in hell. He only pulled 217whp at stage 2 due to his mile high altitude level. 350whp will not be made on an 18g at that kind of elevation or any kind for that matter. 20g at the least w/ meth...
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Old 03-30-2009, 05:52 PM   #19
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i suggest nos. hit the bottle and you'll make 350whp lol i'm just kidding..

20g + meth sounds like a great street setup. i like my 30r on my ej205 =)
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Old 03-30-2009, 09:46 PM   #20
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I've been running my TD06 8cm 20G @ 19psi for 30k miles now. Putting down 325whp and 296wtq. Still running strong. I will be turning it up to 21psi soon.

Preventative maintenance is key along with a good oil (NOT Mobile 1).
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Old 03-30-2009, 11:37 PM   #21
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^Whats wrong with mobil1?
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Old 03-31-2009, 12:53 AM   #22
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Quote:
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^Whats wrong with mobil1?
it turns into water under abuse

my car blew up with it @ a track day (bottom end seized)

Last edited by mxpunk; 03-31-2009 at 01:00 AM.
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Old 03-31-2009, 02:58 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1sicWRX View Post
No way in hell. He only pulled 217whp at stage 2 due to his mile high altitude level. 350whp will not be made on an 18g at that kind of elevation or any kind for that matter. 20g at the least w/ meth...
Hmm... Strange I'm at 500 ft ASL and if needed can make well over 350whp on my 7cm2 18g and stock 2.0

A good tune is a good tune - a GOOD tune is a tune that replicates itself under ALL circumstances - meaning a dyno is only good for timing, fuel, and boost under that EXACT temperature - how does a tuner decide what the car needs at 20*f when he tuned it at 90*??

My car runs 11.6-1 afr's at 20*f and 11.6-1 at 80*f... I run 2* less timing at 20*f than I do at 80*f because of cylinder pressures...

I run 23.5psi of boost at 20*F and 23.5psi of boost at 20*f... Why - because I have road tuned my car at about 50 of the 60 temps between 20-80 to suit my needs - I highly doubt a "pro" tune will ever net you the consistency and reliablity of my tune... Sorry - may be way better than my at the given dyno day temp - not way higher or lower...

^^ What makes an engine last (95% of the time) is purely consistency in the tune. Call bull**** on me - but you can believe what you want...

35k miles on a strung out cammed 01 gsxr 1000 - compressioni never dropped a single psi... The tune was absolutely amazing - thats why it made it till its date with the deer..

B16 (stock open deck 10.6-1 compression on weak sauce rings and rods that could pick your teeth) 600 whp with a 1.06 hta 35r and made over 50+ passes - till failure... ^^ ALL in the tune..


I know there is a breaking point of the rods and then pistons - but my guess is that will be just over 400 wtq (WHP is a factor of cylinder pressures not a direct relationship as torque is)

Keep torque under 350-375 on an all around tune and you should be just fine... I'd also consider keeping boost under 25psi at anything above 6k for insurance... High rpm torque will be just as damaging as midrange torque..

-Jerod
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Old 03-31-2009, 12:32 PM   #24
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Bone STOCK EJ205. Bought car brand new. At 10K miles 300 hp. At 20K miles added Meth injection and 330 hp. At 110K miles added EWG and headers 350 hp. Currently at 130+K miles. Zero engine issues. Did a compression test 2 weeks ago when I changed the plugs and got 150 across the board.
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Old 03-31-2009, 12:39 PM   #25
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^As I pointed out earlier, 350whp can be had reliably with meth and an EWG. CoolRex's car is proof of this. Congrats on making the engine last so long. I can only hope that mine will hold up that well.
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