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Old 06-17-2004, 07:27 PM   #601
totoherbs
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I saw stockers on all the esx cars at rim of the world. The old wrx, the baja, and there was another car...

Quote:
Originally posted by bunot
i just got off the phone with ESX...not Rigoli. i'm not calling australia at this hour and wake Rigoli up. according to Dave @ esx...they use their own custom-made headers. maybe they are stock ones heavily ported, hence the confusion. but far from stock in terms of inner diameter pipe size. he didn't give me anymore info than that.

i had to hang up before he tried to sell me one.
Ya, they will sell you one at a very nice profit for them.

There were a few cars built by Rigoli that the owners all said he uses extrude honed stockers... I know Mario(in2deep) works over there now maybe he could get the info.


Quote:
Originally posted by wgknestrick


Lets also not forget that headers have been proven to equalize AND decrease EGTs. The failing #4 cylinders have been speculated to be caused by the huge distance that the #4 cylinder has to travel in the stock manifold. Headers usually have larger primaries and also keep the cylinders separated for a much greater distance. This would decrease back pressure and therefore lower/equalize EGTs.

(taken from this thread)
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...t&pagenumber=1

Stock Manifold EGTs
1-1575F
2-1632F
3-1573F
4-1549F

GP MOTO EGTs
1-1476F
2-1482F
3-1489F
4-1463F

Installing headers could very easily lead to a more detination resistant engine and many tuners have made that claim. I would expect to have yet another 10-15 hp available in tuning the headers to account for this. So all together, 20-30hp (depending on supporting mods) isn't too bad for a set of $400-$600 headers.
Could this measurments be due to the heat loss aftermarket headers have and not real change in the volumetric efficiency of the motor? So the egts leaving the motor is the same, but because the header is losing heat the egt probe is picking up a lower temp?

Quote:
Originally posted by RiftsWRX
But is cheap 100ft of wrap cost me $40 my costs for DEI (the good stuff).

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com
Ya, I would pick wrap over coatings.
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Old 06-17-2004, 07:33 PM   #602
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Quote:
Originally posted by totoherbs
I saw stockers on all the esx cars at rim of the world. The old wrx, the baja, and there was another car...

Ya, they will sell you one at a very nice profit for them.

There were a few cars built by Rigoli that the owners all said he uses extrude honed stockers... I know Mario(in2deep) works over there now maybe he could get the info.
yeah, i saw their car last year at the east coast shootout, even sat inside (woot!) i saw what looked like stock headers, but i didn't think for a minute that they didn't mess with it.

i spoke with mario before about their rebuilt trans. i wanted to have them build mine, but he didn't pick up when i called.

anyways, i'm happy with my borla headers. i KNOW i saw increased top end performance, better sound, lighter weight, at the expense of 300 RPMs of lag. not a bad tradeoff for me.
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Old 06-17-2004, 07:39 PM   #603
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totoherbs, even in the face of dyno evidence you still continue your tirade? Interesting to say the least.


Most stubborn person evAr!


edit for
cause it was only half serious

Last edited by LotusDrift; 06-17-2004 at 07:58 PM.
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Old 06-17-2004, 07:43 PM   #604
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Quote:
Originally posted by LotusDrift
totohearbs, even in the face of dyno evidence you still continue your tirade? Interesting to say the least.


Most stubborn person evAr!
Tirade? I guess thats what you can call looking at all the facts... have said it before if people can live with the trade offs go for it. I dont dispute thier power gains... just acting as the other side of the argument.

Quote:
Originally posted by bunot
yeah, i saw their car last year at the east coast shootout, even sat inside (woot!) i saw what looked like stock headers, but i didn't think for a minute that they didn't mess with it.

i spoke with mario before about their rebuilt trans. i wanted to have them build mine, but he didn't pick up when i called.

anyways, i'm happy with my borla headers. i KNOW i saw increased top end performance, better sound, lighter weight, at the expense of 300 RPMs of lag. not a bad tradeoff for me.
Ya, Mario is a nice guy... he was one of the cool old school san diego autox guys.

Good luck with the borlas... many people dont have any cracking problems. I'm sure the esx car is not running stock out of the box headers, but im 99% sure they are honed stock headers.
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Old 06-17-2004, 09:25 PM   #605
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If we convinced Borla to comp you some headers, would you join the dark side? Be honest now!

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Old 06-18-2004, 12:06 AM   #606
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Default As for

wrap vs coating, I'd go with coating. I wrapped with the DEI (the good stuff) and mine lasted about six months. I have the GPMoto and the entire upipe section and some of the header section had no wrap or a bit of brittle, breaking off wrap. I coated mine and no problems since. The same logic applies to the wrap as a header that will crack. Do you want to pull the header periodically to re-wrap? Not me. Also, it's not "cheap" to wrap if you do it more than once.

San
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Old 06-18-2004, 08:14 AM   #607
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Supposedly, the Thermo Tec version should work longer/better than DEI. Thermo Tec's wrap has silicone in it so it should remain more flexible and resistant to the "brittle damage" of DEI's offering.
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Old 06-18-2004, 08:50 AM   #608
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Quote:
Originally posted by turboICE
One thing that is disappointing is the lack of the STi. It would have been nice to see the results with a 2.5 pumping the exhaust through.
I second that! I have an STi and am trying to figure out what all this would mean to me.
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Old 06-18-2004, 09:23 AM   #609
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Quote:
Originally posted by oldmansan
wrap vs coating, I'd go with coating. I wrapped with the DEI (the good stuff) and mine lasted about six months. I have the GPMoto and the entire upipe section and some of the header section had no wrap or a bit of brittle, breaking off wrap. I coated mine and no problems since. The same logic applies to the wrap as a header that will crack. Do you want to pull the header periodically to re-wrap? Not me. Also, it's not "cheap" to wrap if you do it more than once.

San
Good point, but coatings = 4 years worth of wrap, bet the header doesnt last that long, and there have been people who blew sensors because of coatings. So its not like one is better then the other just different ways to go about it.




Quote:
Originally posted by Unabomber
If we convinced Borla to comp you some headers, would you join the dark side? Be honest now!



Maybe when I start my project car ill run them on and off with a port matched stock manifold. But not on my daily driver... ive got enough back luck with that. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=578962
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Old 06-18-2004, 11:44 AM   #610
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so does anyone have instructions as to how to port, basically optimize the stock headers?
batsy
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Old 06-18-2004, 12:55 PM   #611
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Quote:
Originally posted by batmanalan
so does anyone have instructions as to how to port, basically optimize the stock headers?
batsy
Here's how I would tackle it:

Remove old manifold
Using old gaskets, line them up over where they are supposed to fit on the manifold
Using spray paint, paint the manifold where the gaskets are fitted
Remove gaskets
On the interior portion of the piping, grind off where you see paint
Air tools with carbide bits will work best, but a Dremel will work
Grind off as far into the manifold as your tool can reach
Finish it with a polishing stone where you did the grinding to smooth it out
Reinstall manifold with new gaskets

Using this technique, you will more than likely have a REALLY nice, REALLY cheap mod!
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Old 06-18-2004, 01:10 PM   #612
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What was described is a P&P and gasket match of the manifold though. This by no means is an Extrude Hone(R) or port matching. This isn't even close to what the "high HP" people using heavily modified manifolds with matched ports are doing.
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Old 06-18-2004, 01:12 PM   #613
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Quote:
Originally posted by Unabomber
Here's how I would tackle it:

Quote:
Originally posted by turboICE
What was described is a P&P and gasket match of the manifold though. This by no means is an Extrude Hone (R) http://www.extrudehone.com/ or port matching. Comparing this to what the "high HP" people are doing with the manifold is not even close.
He never said it was the same, just that its a cheap easy way to get some powA gains.
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Old 06-18-2004, 01:16 PM   #614
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I never said he said that it was the same. I was merely pointing out that it wasn't, because someone would read it and believe that it was and then start posting everywhere how easy it is to extrude hone and port match. And where is the evidence that porting out the mainfold to a size larger than the exhaust port would provide power gains? Especially if the port is done poorly leaving uneven surfaces and not sufficiently polished the extra turbulence created could be a power detriment. The belief that you can just take a dremel to the manifold without regard to understanding, skill or ability is unfounded. If someone has to ask how to do it my money is on there being little if any improvement afterwards.
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Old 06-18-2004, 02:09 PM   #615
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And here's another one;
When i setup my racecar i even had my manifold ported, this proved to be another 3hp extra on top of the extra hp's from the manifold.

So there is always room to find some extra gains.
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Old 06-18-2004, 03:09 PM   #616
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Quote:
Originally posted by batmanalan
so does anyone have instructions as to how to port, basically optimize the stock headers?
batsy
Port matching...
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...highlight=port

Quote:
Originally posted by TheMadScientist
I did the same thing with my TD05. With headers I would get 17psi ~4000rpm. I did what you described and bowl ported all the flanges that had flow going into them. After I reinstalled the ported stock headers I was getting 15psi at ~3000rpm and 20psi by 4000rpm.
When I get my Sti this will be the first thing I do.
TMS
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hlight=headers
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Old 06-20-2004, 05:35 PM   #617
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Okay so someone verify this for me:

In the dyno charts, did they run a stock header+aftermarket uppipe.. or stock header+stock uppipe(catted) ?

Jay
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Old 06-20-2004, 07:42 PM   #618
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Read the article again. They ran all the tests with APS uppipe, including the stock manifolds.

Alex...
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Old 06-20-2004, 09:50 PM   #619
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Ok... so then why is everybody complaining that headers don't do anything... it clearly shows that there's a gain to be had with headers... period.

Edit: If you were me, having GTSpec V2 headers already on the car, would you keep them on, or sell them?

Jay
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Old 06-21-2004, 12:27 AM   #620
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diversion
Ok... so then why is everybody complaining that headers don't do anything... it clearly shows that there's a gain to be had with headers... period.

Edit: If you were me, having GTSpec V2 headers already on the car, would you keep them on, or sell them?

Jay
Do you like them? Do they leak? Is there extra heat under the hood? Do you find when they cool you lose power? If you like them and they are not a problem then dont bother taking them off...
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Old 06-21-2004, 06:15 AM   #621
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I like products that make power, not just look pretty... i'm still unsure if they make worthwhile power.. They don't leak, I don't notice the extra heat under the hood.. they do need to be wrapped (are bare right now).. so maybe they will be more worth it after they are wrapped.

Jay
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Old 06-21-2004, 09:21 AM   #622
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I'd say get them coated and keep them. several of the headers match the spool of the stocker for torque, even if the boost was down. I don't care if my boost drops a couple psi if my torque is identical.

Tom
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Old 06-21-2004, 10:53 AM   #623
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Why can't we get NUMBERS.. like such and such header made it's most torque at XXXX rpm..
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Old 06-21-2004, 04:05 PM   #624
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Kind of came in late on this thread, but let me throw my 2 cent in. Recently dynoed at FIS in Texas. I have Invidia headers with a Deadbolt P/P stock turbo. Steve (the tuner) said that the spool up of the turbo was the best he has seen both stock and aftermarket. The boost curve was almost veritical with a substained plateau. He has done Deadbolts before, but had not seen this type of results. This was the first invidia header he has tuned and was quite impressed. Do not have before dyno results since was my first tune, with the exception of the sound change there is no doubt that the power and torque was significantly increased.
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Old 06-21-2004, 04:11 PM   #625
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diversion
Why can't we get NUMBERS.. like such and such header made it's most torque at XXXX rpm..

Because dyno time is expensive and in demand for other things.
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