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Old 12-06-2003, 08:37 PM   #1
SPeeDSiN
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4667
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Asheville, NC
Vehicle:
2002 WRX
Black (well kinda)

Exclamation Really strange false knock and misfires - Please Help

Ok here is a fairly lengthy detailed post about one of my friend’s car's here in Raleigh, NC and some VERY WEIRD PROBLEMS!

I am posting for him, and for the shop that is working on his car. I haven't actually done most of troubleshooting mentioned, but I know it has been done by competent and trustworthy individuals.

First the mods, just the ones that count:
Blitz FMIC
VF23
Apex'i AVCR - spliced into harness
utec
Perrin Fuel Rails
STi injectors
flywheel (now removed)
pulleys

other mods that might matter
shift light
tons of other electronic toys
aftermarket battery
ground mod, extra heavy gauge power wire to amp

So here is the scenario. My friend’s car has always run great (315whp) reliably with no serious issues. Now in the past 2 weeks he began getting weird knocks, at idle, cruising, and revving the engine. This was accompanied at random times by misfires randomly in various cylinders. The knock counts at cruise are always "1", they occur at vacuum, boost, and at various degrees of ECU timing. However, the overall PROBLEM isn't consistent. It’s more like the problem is either ON or OFF with no apparent cause effect relationship. The car will run fine and strong for a period then just begins messing up again.

The most recent mod to the car which was done about 2 months ago was the fuel rails.

Here is what has been done to correct/diagnose the problem, to no avail and with no apparent change in the symptoms.
First the more obvious:
ran tank dry/filled with 100oct
added fuel/subtracted fuel
added timing/subtracted timing
used previously working maps (tuned on dyno)
used stg4 map
replaced cam sensor
replaced neutral position sensor
replaced plugs 3 times (factory heat range, and tried colder)
Checked coil packs (made sure they were sealed)
switched factory ecu with known working ecu
switched utec " " utec

of course the flywheel was replaced with stock
compression test was ran - perfect 150psi (however, only one side of the engine was done
car has also been looked over by Subaru tech with nothing appearing out of the ordinary.

The problem appears most likely to be electrical. We are suspecting some type of bad sensor or bad connection. With a quick inspection of the car, I didn't see anything out of the ordinary but my brother noted that the previously mentioned heavy gauge power wire was running close to the engine. I remember it being close to the spark plugs but he remembered it being closer to the fuel rail, if that even matters.

One observation about the knock events from the logs I have looked at: They mainly occur close to atmospheric pressure, between 2-3K rpm and in the 10 Load column.

Monday, the pulleys will be taken off and replaced with stock ones, just to be sure. I will also be inspecting the ECU wiring harness for anything out of the ordinary.

So if anyone has any suggestions, observations or obscure off the wall fixes please let us know. I'm tempted to pay someone.

What type of sensor could be suspected for the behaviour? What type of wiring problem?

Aaron Caudle

Here is his dyno tuned map. This one for sure has worked for quite some time. He also has another map for 100 octane with more timing advance.
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Last edited by SPeeDSiN; 12-07-2003 at 10:57 AM.
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Old 12-06-2003, 08:44 PM   #2
SPeeDSiN
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 4667
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Asheville, NC
Vehicle:
2002 WRX
Black (well kinda)

Default

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[
END][MAPGROUP][0F1A4][EOF][1;24r[22;01fFINISHED                                                                        [23;01f                                                                                [25;80f 
Here are instances of the random knocks. Unfortunately I have so much data and I wasn't the one making the logs so I am assuming this are instances of knock while cruising in various gears after doing knock free pulls.

Quote:
2056 0.4 42 10 0 12.7 31.2 34 ECU. -6.6 2.3
2123 0.6 47 10 0 13.1 31 108 ECU. -6.6 2.3
2219 0.8 50 10 0 12.4 30.4 10 ECU. -6.6 2.4
2287 1.1 52 10 0 13.4 29.7 11 ECU. -6.6 2.4
2372 1.3 52 10 0 13.3 29.7 12 ECU. -6.6 2.4
2452 1.5 53 10 0 13.8 29.4 13 ECU. -6.7 2.5
2577 1.9 52 20 0 13.8 29.4 14 ECU. -6.6 2.5
2690 2.1 53 20 0 13.4 29 15 ECU. -6.7 2.7
2810 2.5 53 20 0 13.4 27.2 16 ECU. -6.8 2.7
2906 2.9 54 20 0 13.1 26.1 18 ECU. -6.6 2.8
3030 3.5 54 30 1 13.3 25 19 ECU. -6.3 2.9
3153 4.1 54 30 1 12.9 23.9 20 ECU. -6.3 3
3326 5.1 48 30 0 13.3 23.2 21 ECU. -6.3 3
3447 6.2 44 40 1 13 22 22 ECU. -6 3.1
3561 6.8 27 40 0 12.9 20.5 24 ECU. -5.8 3
3963 4.9 0 0 0 rich 36.5 9 ECU. -6.6 2
4290 1.3 0 0 0 rich 23.2 11 ECU. -6.6 2.5
3982 -3 0 0 0 22.7 13.7 11 ECU. -6.6 2.2
3639 -7.3 0 0 0 24 11.4 11 ECU. -6.6 2.1
3380 -9.1 0 0 0 23.7 11.4 11 ECU. -6.6 1.9
3103 -9.8 0 0 0 23.7 11.4 11 ECU. -6.6 1.6
2856 -10 0 0 0 23.7 11.6 11 ECU. -6.6 1.9
2585 -10.2 0 0 0 23.7 11.8 11 ECU. -6.6 2
2344 -10.6 0 0 0 23.7 11.9 11 ECU. -6.6 1.8
2101 -10.8 0 0 0 23.7 12 11 ECU. -6.6 1.3
and another
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Old 12-06-2003, 09:00 PM   #3
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Quote:
2707 -11.8 2.6 19 10 00 22.9 +4.6 10.0 ECU. -6.7 ECU. 2.5
2732 -8.9 2.7 49 10 00 13.4 +26.5 12.0 ECU. -6.5 ECU. 2.5
2732 -5.9 2.7 68 10 00 14.2 +26.5 14.0 ECU. -6.7 230.00 2.5
2741 -2.6 2.7 72 10 00 13.3 +26.1 15.0 ECU. -6.5 250.00 2.5
2741 -0.2 2.7 73 10 00 12.8 +24.8 16.0 ECU. -6.8 250.00 2.6
2791 +0.6 2.9 76 10 01 rich +24.0 16.0 ECU. -6.8 250.00 2.7
2784 +1.3 2.8 77 20 01 rich +29.6 17.0 ECU. -6.7 250.00 2.7
2868 +2.1 2.9 78 20 01 rich +28.6 18.0 ECU. -6.7 250.00 2.6
2853 +2.7 3.0 77 20 01 rich +27.6 19.0 ECU. -6.7 250.00 2.7
2896 +3.1 3.0 75 20 01 rich +26.9 19.0 ECU. -6.6 250.00 2.7
2886 +3.7 3.0 75 30 00 rich +25.8 20.0 ECU. -6.4 250.00 2.8
2931 +4.3 3.0 75 30 01 rich +25.2 21.0 ECU. -6.4 250.00 2.8
2989 +4.9 3.1 76 30 01 rich +24.4 22.0 ECU. -6.4 250.00 2.8
3005 +5.3 3.1 75 30 02 rich +22.7 22.0 ECU. -6.3 250.00 2.8
3030 +5.9 3.1 75 30 01 rich +21.9 23.0 ECU. -6.3 250.00 2.9
3069 +6.4 3.1 75 40 01 rich +21.6 24.0 ECU. -6.3 250.00 2.9
3092 +6.8 3.2 75 40 01 rich +20.9 24.0 ECU. -6.3 250.00 3.0
some at vacum

Quote:
2182 -2.6 2.4 20 10 00 13.6 +35.3 9.0 ECU. -6.6 ECU. 2.2
2197 -1.6 2.4 23 10 00 13.3 +34.8 10.0 ECU. -6.6 ECU. 2.3
2219 -1.2 2.5 23 10 01 13.5 +34.6 10.0 ECU. -6.6 ECU. 2.3
2232 -0.8 2.5 23 10 01 13.4 +34.1 10.0 ECU. -6.6 ECU. 2.3
2222 -0.4 2.5 23 10 00 13.1 +34.1 10.0 ECU. -6.6 ECU. 2.3
2286 -0.2 2.4 17 10 00 13.1 +34.6 10.0 ECU. -6.6 ECU. 2.3
I don't have any logs of the engine just being revved.
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Old 12-06-2003, 11:29 PM   #4
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I am experiencing exactly the same problems.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=463186
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Old 12-06-2003, 11:59 PM   #5
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"...compression test was ran - perfect 150psi (however, only one side of the engine was done..."

Finish the test. Do it right or just keep guessing.
Kinda like wiping 1/2 your...


"...car has also been looked over by Subaru tech with nothing appearing out of the ordinary..."

X-ray vision, I suppose.
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Old 12-07-2003, 09:39 AM   #6
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Aaron,

It looks like you are expreriencing a fairly common tuning problem. As your tuning gets better and better while running a UTEC your ecu can get extremely "happy" and run excessive ignition timing when "ecu" is used as a value.

Look at your knock counts and you will see "ecu" as your timing value in "mod ign" and the actual value in "ign 1." I see that they are in the low 20s which may be a bit high. The reason this is happening is becuase the UTEC's sensitivity to knock is much higher than your factory ecu.

Step one would be to copy your timing values from your load site 50 into load sites 10-40 and see if this fixes your problem.

Thanks,
Phil
TurboXS
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Old 12-07-2003, 10:18 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by motoxphil
Aaron,

It looks like you are expreriencing a fairly common tuning problem. As your tuning gets better and better while running a UTEC your ecu can get extremely "happy" and run excessive ignition timing when "ecu" is used as a value.

Look at your knock counts and you will see "ecu" as your timing value in "mod ign" and the actual value in "ign 1." I see that they are in the low 20s which may be a bit high. The reason this is happening is becuase the UTEC's sensitivity to knock is much higher than your factory ecu.

Step one would be to copy your timing values from your load site 50 into load sites 10-40 and see if this fixes your problem.

Thanks,
Phil
TurboXS
Phil : Please explain how your method would work. You stated yourself that the ECU was controlling the timing values so therefore changing the values in the 10%-40% load site columns wouldnt help the issue at hand, unless I am mistaken. To me it seems like it is an ECU program problem but since SPeeDiSN has swapped out the ECU then it is possible it is another problem. I have seen as much as 30 degrees advance from the stock ECU when I see knock. I have added fuel to the 0% load column in the fuel map as well as pulled fueling and nether yeilded any different results.

Could the problem be a faultyknock sensor? Do we need a value other than ECU in the 0% load site column of the timing map?

-Matt (Still Clueless )
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Old 12-07-2003, 10:24 AM   #8
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Matt,

You're misinterpreted what I've said. First off you must remember that your stock ecu is never controlling timing while using the UTEC. When "ecu" is used as a value for timing the UTEC will mimic what your ecu wants to run. Based on what I've already mentioned you should not use "ecu" as a value anymore.

Just do what I said and live happily ever after or you can continue to replace parts

Thanks,
Phil
TurboXS
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Old 12-07-2003, 11:07 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by motoxphil
Matt,

You're misinterpreted what I've said. First off you must remember that your stock ecu is never controlling timing while using the UTEC. When "ecu" is used as a value for timing the UTEC will mimic what your ecu wants to run. Based on what I've already mentioned you should not use "ecu" as a value anymore.

Just do what I said and live happily ever after or you can continue to replace parts

Thanks,
Phil
TurboXS
Phil,

I can see where you are coming from and hopefully that will solve the problem but when I am logging I never see the load site go over "00" even when it reaches positive boost. So even though the load site is "00" adjusting the lower load site columns will correct the problem??? The only column in my timing map that has ECU as a value is the 0% load site column, should this be something different?? I am definitely going to try your suggestions I am just not quite sure I understand what your saying. Thanks for your help it is GREATLY appreciated.

-Matt
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Old 12-07-2003, 06:50 PM   #10
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change you spark plugs coil
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Old 12-07-2003, 07:35 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by 02_Scooby_WRX
Phil,

I can see where you are coming from and hopefully that will solve the problem but when I am logging I never see the load site go over "00" even when it reaches positive boost. So even though the load site is "00" adjusting the lower load site columns will correct the problem??? The only column in my timing map that has ECU as a value is the 0% load site column, should this be something different?? I am definitely going to try your suggestions I am just not quite sure I understand what your saying. Thanks for your help it is GREATLY appreciated.

-Matt
You are not reading the logs above correctly. The knock in those logs happens between 10 and 30%. In the 10-40% load sites the map shows –100. For reference –100 = ECU.

Loose the crank pulley and see what happens with the misfires.

Phil is not addressing your situation... he is addressing this specific question.

-Nathan
www.turboxs.com
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Old 12-07-2003, 11:23 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by nmyeti
You are not reading the logs above correctly. The knock in those logs happens between 10 and 30%. In the 10-40% load sites the map shows –100. For reference –100 = ECU.

Loose the crank pulley and see what happens with the misfires.

Phil is not addressing your situation... he is addressing this specific question.

-Nathan
www.turboxs.com

Yeah I see where I read into that wrong.

Care to try and help me troubleshoot my problem???
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...55#post5166455
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Old 12-09-2003, 11:46 AM   #13
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The shop working on my friend's car tried copying the timing values all the way down to the 10 load column to no avail.
The motor has decided to start making some nasty ticking sounds and they have found a considerable amount of oil coming from the boost controller and BOV. I guess its time to run the compression test on the other side of the engine.
I will find out if any more has been found out on the condition of the car later today.

Do the symtoms I have described in any way indicate a mechanical failure?

Aaron
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Old 12-09-2003, 01:43 PM   #14
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Well, bad news.
No 4 was showing between 60 and 90 psi. That was the whole problem. I guess it has just been on the verge of going out for a while now. Does that sound like a reasonable explanation as to why somedays it would run strong and others just be a dog?

So my friend needs to get back on the road quick! Does anyone have a good price on a used, but good shape, EJ20? PM me.

Aaron
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