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Old 12-08-2003, 06:44 PM   #1
billmidd08
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Exclamation Completely stock dyno VS turboback + uppipe dyno RESULTS!





Stock: NOTHING changed not even a restrictor or a silencer
186.6HP

Turboback: ScoobySport DP (wrapped) to ScoobySport "Front Center Section" to Borla Hush catback.
Uppipe: Gutted stock uppipe.
197.7HP

Just wondering if this kind of gain was normal for tubobacks w/ uppipes. I thought I would see a little more gain in HP with this setup . My real goal was to get the most down low and midrage hence the scoobysport (which I can definately feel now, boost spools up much much quicker), but I was expecting a little more HP gain that 11. I also did the Vishnu reset a few hours before hitting the dyno, it was my first try at it but I think I did it right.

However one of the more knoledgable/experienced guys there said it was a decent gain for those mods while running stock boost and stock ECU. Any of you guys with dyno'd results I'd love to hear about your experiences going from stock to a similar setup.

-Bill

EDIT: added dyno plot, *** Also if anyones good with excel, send me a PM and I'll send you a xls file I made *** it combines the two data sheets since they're not graphed on the same scale . Was wondering if somebody could graph the data points I've entered since all my attempts at plotting the points fail misrably and come out funky
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Last edited by billmidd08; 12-09-2003 at 12:37 AM.
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Old 12-08-2003, 07:05 PM   #2
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Wow that dyno reads high. 90F and 187whp stock? sheesh!

You should see an increase at every point on the graph with uppipe+turboback. 11hp peak increase isnt much but its not surprising because most of the gains you get are in the tuning. Just look at your a/f ratio, its off the chart rich after 4200rpm or so.
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Old 12-08-2003, 07:36 PM   #3
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Pic

Ignore the numbers. Look at the difference between curves. That was (from awhile ago):

Cat-less up-pipe
Samco IC hoses
Stock ECU untuned

vs.

Cat-less up-pipe
Samco IC hoses
TXS downpipe, midpipe, cat
Prodrive axle-back
Stock ECU untuned

And yeah, that dyno reads really high, and you're piiiig rich as mlambert said. Get a tune
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Old 12-08-2003, 07:54 PM   #4
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Yep, basically you will see N/A type gains if you don't change the boost.

90% of the gains seen on teh forum are from booost. It's all about making mods that enable you to make more boost and/or enable better tuning settings.

Without making adjustments to boost and timing/fueling, you'll see relatively small gains.
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Old 12-08-2003, 08:20 PM   #5
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I think the tempature alone would rate most of that increase. I am very suspicious of the stock figure.
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Old 12-08-2003, 09:56 PM   #6
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True it was about 25 degrees cooler or so the second time around, but the humidity sucked it was about 60% increase in humidity.

FWIW on the 90 degree day a car with:

COBB Stg 2 ECU, uppipe, downpipe, catback and stock third cat hit 215hp.
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Old 12-08-2003, 10:13 PM   #7
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Added second plot.. crappy quality, I should get them scanned rather than taking pictures of them with my digi-cam
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Old 12-08-2003, 10:20 PM   #8
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Default dyno

Hi! Thought that I'd chime in here...

With an uppipe and downpipe you'll see the most dramatic gains in low and midrange torque. I'm a bit surprised at how strong your car was stock, very nice pull there. Anyway, at the beginning of the chart you'll notice the torque coming in much earlier - THAT is where the most driveability is. You would do a shade bit better perhaps with a straight uppipe rather than a gutted one, but not bad here.

I'm a bit surprised that you didn't get a little more torque going just catless. We see about +15 out of the uppipe / downpipe anyway...

Horsepower comes mainly from the catback. I've not run the Borla catback, but ours is worth between plus 7 and plus 11 in our experience. With the full ScoobySport system we see plus 20 to 28 hp / ft lbs.

The advice on the forum here is correct in the benefits of boost / fuelling - the Subaru responds well to both boost and timing advance because of its bore and stroke, as opposed to the Evo which responds to just boost. In that regard, a well mapped ECU does give good gains when combined with exhaust -

BUT

Be careful of going too lean. There are areas where Subaru is dumping some fuel in to stop det, so you can't just go to a 12.5/1 AFR and say "there, that's good"

I can't speak to your catback, but with a full system you should be seeing a bit more. One question on "Shiv's" trick to get the ECU to advance... did you do it between your stock and modified runs? If so, it may have taken you the other way and hampered your hp on the modded runs.

This is a commonly misunderstood trick and is often used more than necessary - and done too roughly can sometimes cause the car to go the other way (dropping advance multiplier and running you on the high det fuel map instead). You have to be light on the brake when doing it to do it well. Also: 1.) Do drive the car normally first, without bogging it, for about a mile or so. 2.) apply the "trick" gently, or better yet - drive up a good hill if you have one nearby. This does the same thing. 3.) Drive aggressively through all the gears.

Anyway, our $0.02

Regards,
Ken
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ScoobySport North America
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Old 12-08-2003, 11:13 PM   #9
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These gains seem low in my experience. I would check for leaks in the upipe. Going to a turbo back its very typical to get a solid 20whp gain and 25+ ft lbs of trq with a dramatic increase in low end due to increased spoolup. Upipes are worth 5-12whp. With an upipe and a turbo back I see a combined typical 30whp gain.

Clark
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Old 12-09-2003, 12:21 AM   #10
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Compaired to the 2nd plot it looks normal to me. About a 25lb/ft gain around 4500-5000 and 25+hp close to redline. Pretty close to average according to my eyeballs Clark
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Old 12-09-2003, 12:25 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by AZScoobie
These gains seem low in my experience. I would check for leaks in the upipe. Going to a turbo back its very typical to get a solid 20whp gain and 25+ ft lbs of trq with a dramatic increase in low end due to increased spoolup. Upipes are worth 5-12whp. With an upipe and a turbo back I see a combined typical 30whp gain.

Clark
I checked all the junctures quickly after the install and nothing was leaking anywhere.

After I got the dyno results back I thought the same thing, "maybe I have a leak" so I checked the uppipe to header juncture and up to turbo and turbo to downpipe junctures too and I couldn't feel any leaks .

I checked by having a helper start up the engine and rev it up fairly high while I dangled my hand precariously close to these areas. Also I dont here any loud hissing that I thought I would hear if I had a leak. Is there a more exact way of searching for leaks?

How do you guys usualy check?

Side note: Afterwards I checked underneath the car, the juncture between my 3rd cat pipe and catback exhaust wasn't torqued to spec and neather were the clamps that go on the borla catback I tightened all of those down to spec, but I didnt think that that would account for the low dyno gains
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Old 12-09-2003, 01:05 AM   #12
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The difference in the graphs look pretty good for just exhaust without tuning or boost change. It's holding power much better near redline. Looks like 40 more hp near 6850 RPMs!
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Old 12-09-2003, 01:24 AM   #13
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Default new development.

After checking yet again to no avail I decided to go out on the road and wail on her a little and try to listen to all the new noises I'm hearing to try and find that leak.... never found it but found something else that wasinteresting.

When I hammer on it in the higher gears boost spools quickly up to about 15.5 - 16psi (usually somewhere around 3k rpms) then drops immediately down to 10-12psi!... where it then gradually builds back up to about 13.5ish psi where it holds until the ECU tapers boost approaching redline. Anyone else experience this?

I'm going to reset the ECU right now w/o doing the Vishnu trick and see if this is still preasent.

(before the uppipe & turboback it would spool up to 13 - 13.5 psi at the mid 3000's and just hang out there till it tappered at redline)
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Old 12-09-2003, 01:33 AM   #14
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Its probably spiking and over correcting. Typical with your mods and a completely untuned ecu. According to the before/after dyno charts your car is fine. Stop worrying
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Old 12-09-2003, 02:06 AM   #15
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Hmmm nope, reset the ECU, same stinking thing happens, I just dont have as much power now ...

normal you say huh? I may try reducing the wastegate actuater pre-load a turn or two and see if that helps out. Anyone else have any ideas?

Quote:
Originally posted by mlambert
According to the before/after dyno charts your car is fine. Stop worrying
NevAAr!! such blasphamey from Scooby Specialist? Repent now and you shall be forgiven
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Old 12-09-2003, 07:51 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by billmidd08
I may try reducing the wastegate actuater pre-load a turn or two and see if that helps out. Anyone else have any ideas?
Yeah, I'd get the ECU reflashed like everyone says before tinkering with anything else.
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Old 12-09-2003, 10:14 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by billmidd08
Hmmm nope, reset the ECU, same stinking thing happens, I just dont have as much power now ...

normal you say huh? I may try reducing the wastegate actuater pre-load a turn or two and see if that helps out. Anyone else have any ideas?



NevAAr!! such blasphamey from Scooby Specialist? Repent now and you shall be forgiven

I've got an AVO boost controller that will solve your problems...
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Old 12-09-2003, 11:12 AM   #18
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I still typically see more from those mods. Its typical to get 20hp gain from 2k to 7k rpm with no area the same. His car does not look bad but 11 peak is not what I normally see.

Clark
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Old 12-09-2003, 12:50 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by AZScoobie
I still typically see more from those mods. Its typical to get 20hp gain from 2k to 7k rpm with no area the same. His car does not look bad but 11 peak is not what I normally see.

Clark
In the cars that gain 20hp with similar mods (up + turboback on the stock ECU) do they usually retain their stock boost level or increase a couple of PSI?

-Bill
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Old 12-09-2003, 01:04 PM   #20
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Bill, they increase. Mainly in the midrange areas. I normally see a spike with 2 psi increase. The same boost will be run past 5000 rpm though. This spike can be fixed in the ECU rom file by adjusting the dynamics and gain in the rpm rage. But, 16 psi on spool up is no worry... Enjoy it.

Clark
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Old 12-09-2003, 01:29 PM   #21
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Sounds good, I am still undecided as to which engine management I'm going to be getting, most likely ecutek w/ DD or the Access Port.

Until then I'm going to try and either lighten the preload on my wastegate actuator or knock the stock restrictor in the vacuum line down from the stock 1/8 to 3/32 or 1/16(if anyone makes such a thing).

My theory behind that is that if I get rid of the spike at 16psi at 3krps it will hold at something higher than 13psi.
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Old 12-09-2003, 01:51 PM   #22
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The boost fade at the end is in the ECU map. No matter what you do you will have that fade. In the map boost is returned to wastegate pressure up top. I have the rom file here in front of me. Unless you spring the wastegate to a higher static pressure or run another form of boost control its going to be hard to raise the boost in the high rpm ranges. If you remove the Restrictor (comp side short hose to white T) you will drop about 2 psi.

Clark
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Old 12-09-2003, 02:06 PM   #23
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Okay let em attempt to explain a little more:

The spike to 16 psi happens just before the tach hits 3k RPMS and then cuts to about 11psi, and then has to build its way back up to 13psi, and holds the 13psi till around 5.5-6k RPMS where the stock ecu is forcing it to cut boost.

What I'm trying to do is hold something higher than 13psi between 3-5.5k RPM's, I'm not trying to get it to hold where the ECU normaly forces it to taper off.
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Old 12-09-2003, 02:25 PM   #24
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Clark is right on here with all his comments, in my opinion.

Your car's ability to make boost mechanically has increased a lot - you're diagnosing the problem correctly (your car's stock boost acheive and wastegate duty cycles don't expect the ability to make boost so fast).

The nice thing about a remap is that you can both maximize the early boost that your car can now make, AND temper out that spike as it hits peak. Right now your car is saying "good heavens" and pulling boost like mad when it over-peaks.

You could try a smaller restrictor in the hose, as you said, or try unloading the wastegate a few turns also...

OR, you could also try putting the factory front center back in to see if that configuration will slow things down just enough to make the up-down-up in your boost curve not as pronounced...

Best wishes! A good reflash will help with this dramatically, but until then I think you're barking up the right tree.

KC
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Old 12-09-2003, 04:48 PM   #25
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Try easing your foot to WOT, rather than 'stomping' the pedal to the floor.....
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