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Old 12-14-2003, 05:43 AM   #1
Dolphin Overton
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Default I got a stupid ticket... really stupid

What the hell? Cop pulls me over and acts like a complete dick. He doesn't even ask me for my liscence or registration first, just says "you have a modified exhaust and you are going to get a big ticket".(no exaggeration, these are his aexact words) I'm dumbfounded. He then asks for liscence, regestration, and insureance. I give it to him. Then he asks "Where do you live". again dumbfounded i tell him my denver adress thinking he doesn't need my North Carolina adress.
At this point i am being very nice to him because it ussually makes them more leaniant... not this ******* appearently. So he goes back to his car after he tells me modified exahausts are illegal. He comes back and asks me to come over to his car. I go over and he shows me the exact law, which basically said that you can't modify your exhaust at all, not even if your stock muffler rusts out. so at this point i think i am entitled to question a few things and ask him if this is true, how do people get new exhausts on older cars... he comes up with an assinign answer that is basically BS. He then tells me I am also getting a ticket for not haveing CO registration since i've been her longer tan 30 days... ith en said my permanent adress is in NC and he shoud rewrite the ticket. He then told me to take it up in court because he asked "where i live" and i told him my Denver adress. I'm a student, so it's not my permenant adress... at this point i am livid because he won't rewrite it. So i say fine, i have a lawyer. He says have a nice day.(it's 9:35pm) I say "Have the worst holiday of your life and i hope you get ****ing shot" he says "thanks i will"(this is the only time in the incident when i got mad at all, the rest of the time i was a complete gentlemen)

end rant

i am still steaming. i wanted to kill him seriously. he went out of his way(flipped a U turn to snag me, i was in the bottom of second doing 25... so my car was actually quite) to give me a ticket for something that is trivial and acted like a total asshat.


so, what are my options? I got the ticket and it's not even a moving violation, just a summons with no cost on it. It doesn't have my car listed or anything. It makes me really confused

i am so pissed right now you have no idea. i seriously hope he burns alive, not for giving me a ticket, but for the arrogance he showed while doing so. If he would have been nice, i would have accepted it and got a prodrive exhaust(which i want anyway)
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Old 12-14-2003, 11:14 AM   #2
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cops that do that have nothing better to do w/ there time exept to pull people over for stupid $hit...
one time a cop tried giving me a ticket in my subaru becouse i had exaust...but luckly i had emitions done like 2 weeks before so i still had my reading from the machine... i told the cop that he cant give me a ticket becouse my exaust passed the noice and the fumes test and i was ready to pull out the paper and show it to him...but he didnt even want to argue w/ me about it and just let me go w/ a speeding ticket

im sorry to hear that and u should have told that cop "i hope u get cancer in ur testiculs(sp?) and in your lungs"
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Old 12-14-2003, 01:09 PM   #3
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I highly doubt modifying your exhaust in any emission legal way, would be illegal. How could companies sell exhausts then? The intention is selling them to people that plan to use them on their street going vehicle, why would they even bother with the, "Legal in all 50 States"?

I think if you do some research, maybe get a emission test, etc. You could get out of the ticket.
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Old 12-14-2003, 01:34 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by DenverRS
I highly doubt modifying your exhaust in any emission legal way, would be illegal. How could companies sell exhausts then? The intention is selling them to people that plan to use them on their street going vehicle, why would they even bother with the, "Legal in all 50 States"?

I think if you do some research, maybe get a emission test, etc. You could get out of the ticket.
Nope. Exhaust are sold in CO for off-road use only. I think every "tuner" has fine print somewhere that says check local state and city laws. The cop wrote a legit ticket but it is a cheap one (around 35 bucks) so don't worry 'bout your exhaust. It is illegal, but there really aren't a lot of cops running around giving this ticket. Anyone in CO who is worried about how loud the exhaust will be, and don't want to get anything too loud do to noise restrictions needs to know that in CO 1db or 50db over stock doesn't matter. It's all illegal. Of course, so is speeding and I don't see everyone on I-25 doing 55.

-Ryan
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Old 12-14-2003, 04:15 PM   #5
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yeah, he showed me the law. it's retarded. I asked him how people fix their exhausts when they rust out. He replies with "Do you know how many of these i give out a day?" So basically you can't drive a car made in the 80's because it's not a classic and unless your car came with the most durable exhaust ever, you have somethig else on it. ****ing retarded.
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Old 12-14-2003, 05:24 PM   #6
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He's right, I think the law says any and all modifications are illegal. Over at www.cosr.com they have some cops that answer these questions.. you could go ask... but yous aid you have a lawyer so let him do his job.
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Old 12-14-2003, 09:32 PM   #7
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ya and your exhaust wouldnt attract ANY attention.... hehe.

Supertrapps are LOUD!

that sucks fish... get em. dont let em win..
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Old 12-14-2003, 09:33 PM   #8
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Default Is this the law he showed you?

Is this the law he showed you?
If he cites a different statute, then you got busted by a county or municipal statute.
By the way which jurisdiction was he with?

Colorado revised statutes
Current through the First Regular Session of the Sixty-Fourth General Assembly (2003)

42-4-225. Mufflers - prevention of noise.

(1) Every motor vehicle subject to registration and operated on a highway shall at all times be equipped with an adequate muffler in constant operation and properly maintained to prevent any excessive or unusual noise, and no such muffler or exhaust system shall be equipped with a cut-off, bypass, or similar device. No person shall modify the exhaust system of a motor vehicle in a manner which will amplify or increase the noise emitted by the motor of such vehicle above that emitted by the muffler originally installed on the vehicle, and such original muffler shall comply with all of the requirements of this section.


It is interesting that the law in no way specifies a method of measurement or the frequency range of interest. You could put an ultrasonic whistle on your exhaust that was inaudible to humans but be 100x louder than the stock muffler and there would be no means to determine if it was a violation.

Even if you had a side by side comparison with a stock muffler in good repair, the law does not specify if the noise has to be audible to humans, it does not even define what noise is.

The common dictonary definition of noise being hardly useful in an enforcement context. One mans noise is another mans music.

Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 12-14-2003 at 09:55 PM.
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Old 12-14-2003, 10:35 PM   #9
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Oh man, you've got to be kidding me. Thats just plain silly.

I've seen a few cops follow me in my exhaust modded 2.5RS, but none of them have pulled me over for it. Was it possible that he was getting your for speeding and decided to write you up for the exhaust too? I've never heard anyone being written up for a modified exhaust, at least not here in Colorado.

Also... What if you did put on a stock muffler but had larger piping? Will it still be a lot louder? It doesn't seem like you would loose too much by just replacing the muffler.
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Old 12-14-2003, 10:50 PM   #10
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I wasn't speeding. I was at a stop light right beside him turning right. I used my blinker and even turned on green.

I don't know if that's the exact law. I don't think it was because the one he showed me basically said you can't modify your exhaust at all, not even if it's the same loudness.

The cop was just one of the ******** out there that gives most of them a bad name. He was a Denver police officer too, i thought they had better things to do on colfax?
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Old 12-14-2003, 10:55 PM   #11
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like I said. You have a lawyer.. let him do his job and don't sweat it
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Old 12-15-2003, 03:14 AM   #12
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Default Look on the ticket

Look on the ticket usually they put a specific citation down so you know what charge your facing.

I suspect your dealing with a Denver City and County code violation that is stricter than the state law I cited above.

For discussion purposes you need to get the actual text of the statute your being charged under.

Denver has a history of writing City and County codes that get thrown out later by the courts so it would not surprise me a bit if the law forces you to do the impossible, or is so broad as to be unenforceable.

Luckily they cannot enforce a law that is so extreme that a person would basically be forced to only replace the muffler with an OEM replacement -- that would create a defacto monopoly for the car dealerships.

The bad news is statutes like that stand until someone challenges them and it goes up the court ladder for a formal decision. Frequently that sort of stuff is usually plea bargained away so the actual charge never sees the light of day if your someone that will likely fight it.

Years ago they had laws like that for suspension modifications. The intent was to prohibit changes folks made to Jack up the rear of the car in the classic hot rod style. Now look at the high boy trucks running around.

The law was so broad, that basically made replacing shocks or adding traction bars illega, but also could be construed to prohibit other than OEM tires, no air shock to allow you to safely tow a trailer etcl. They got thrown out when someone made an issue out of them.

Larry
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Old 12-15-2003, 03:26 AM   #13
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Default Here's the denver code citation

Denver Code of Ordinances
REVISED MUNICIPAL CODE City and County of DENVER, COLORADO Codified through Ord. No. 807-03, adopted Oct. 27, 2003. (SupplementInfobase8/1 Chapter 54 TRAFFIC REGULATIONS*
ARTICLE IV. EQUIPMENT OF VEHICLES*

Sec. 54-74. Mufflers, prevention of noise.

(a) Every motor vehicle shall, at all times, be equipped with a muffler in good working order and in constant operation to prevent excessive, raucous or unusually loud noise, smoke or flame, and no person shall operate a motor vehicle upon the streets and highways of this city which is not so equipped, or which is equipped with a muffler cutout, bypass, Hollywood pipes or any similar device. A muffler is defined for the purpose of this article as a device consisting of a series of chambers or other mechanical devices for the purpose of receiving exhaust gases from an internal combustion engine which is designed for the purpose of breaking up the sound tones and the diffusion of smoke and flame emitting therefrom.

(b) No person shall sell, give away for use upon, install or cause the installation to be made, or use upon any motor vehicle operated in the city, any type of muffler or other device that will modify the exhaust system of a motor vehicle in any manner so as to amplify or increase the noise emitted by the motor of such motor vehicle to the point where it becomes excessive or unreasonable to the ear of the ordinary person.

(c) No person shall sell, give away for use upon, install or cause the installation to be made upon, or use upon any motor vehicle operated or to be operated in the city any device, apparatus, equipment, instrument or other system, method or instrumentality with, in, or on, any exhaust system designed or intended to ignite exhaust gases to produce a flame, within or outside the exhaust system of the motor vehicle.

(d) This section 54-74 shall not apply to neighborhood electric vehicles.
(Code 1950, 507.6; Ord. No. 629-98, 5, 9-8-98)
Cross references: Noise control generally, Ch. 36.
State law references: Similar provisions, C.R.S. 1973, 42-4-222.



http://livepublish.municode.com/3/lp....htm&vid=10257


Bold highlight added --

Note this statute appears to be new on the books if I read this correctly:
Codified through Ord. No. 807-03, adopted Oct. 27, 2003.

Note this statute has no objective standard to allow the driver to know ahead of time whether his new muffler is or is not legal. I would wager that your muffler is not as loud as some stock OEM motorcycle mufflers which would be legal as original equipment.

Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 12-15-2003 at 03:35 AM.
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Old 12-15-2003, 11:55 AM   #14
hoodwho
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so who is this "ordinary" person? they obvoiusly dont drive a HARLEY.

stupid laws for making money. you cant cite for something like this without a scale of measure. thats why we have posted speed limits and ways of detecting speed, which even then many of those detection ways are incorrect. and can be fought.

so whats a "normal" level of sound?

the volume of a ferrari under full throttle is acceptable? because its factory?

how about an STi muffler? its from SUBARU....



(these are mostly rhetoricle... but just to spark thought...)
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Old 12-16-2003, 02:08 AM   #15
Dolphin Overton
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Larry- thank you VERY much for this info. I will talk to the judge or whoever i talk to this week. I put the end cap on the supertrapp to be safe until i go to court.

I am also going to TRY to get someone to review the tape from that night. The officer sped and made an illegal turn before using his lights. I think this is wrong and someone should say somehting to him... he also needs counceling for being rude to people.

I would love to fight this, but it's at the most inconvenient time ever. I am still going to try though. These are the things that make me the most angry out of anything(did that make sense... been at school for 14 hours)

once again, thank you very much.

edit: i don't know if this is the same thing, but my citatin was a 36-8(c).... i am going to try o find it.
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Old 12-16-2003, 02:14 AM   #16
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i found it

http://www.nonoise.org/lawlib/cities/denver/

80db at 25 feet where? a stock viper or ferrari in an ally at 100 feet is louder than 80db. and i seriously doubt my car is that loud from 25 feet away on the open road.

And the thing about sound levels higher than OEM is garbage. What the hell does that mean anyway. A stock viper can mustang GT can have a loud exhaust but i am only allowed to have a whisper quiet car? what's the point? what if everyone starts buying loud factory cars?

Mike i need to borrow something from soundtrack to find out.

Last edited by Dolphin Overton; 12-16-2003 at 02:21 AM.
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Old 12-16-2003, 02:24 AM   #17
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Default For reference

Just for future reference incase your link quits working in the future.

Sec. 36-8. Motor vehicle noise.

(a) No person shall operate nor shall the owner permit the operation of any motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles at any time or place when such operation exceeds the following noise sound pressure levels for the category of motor vehicle and for the designated time period as specified in Table B. The standards in Table B shall apply to all noise emitted from motor vehicles including any and all equipment thereon, under any condition of acceleration, deceleration, idle, grade or load and whether or not in motion.
Code:
__________
TABLE B
Maximum Allowable Noise Sound Pressure Levels for Motor Vehicles
Type of Vehicle | Time Period | Maximum Allowable Sound Pressure Level Measurement | Distance from Motor Vehicle
Motor vehicles weighing less than 10,000 pounds,
manufacturers gross vehicle weight | At any time | 80 dB(A) | 25 feet

__________
(b) It shall be unlawful for any person to drive or move, or for the owner of any motor vehicle to permit to be driven or moved any motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles at any time, which is not equipped with any exhaust muffler approved by this chapter.

(c) It shall be unlawful for any person or for the owner of a motor vehicle to modify or change the exhaust muffler, air intake muffler or any other sound reducing device in such a manner that the noise emitted from the motor vehicle exceeds the sound pressure levels as established in Table B of this section or, is increased above the sound pressure level of the vehicle as originally manufactured. Muffler cut-outs, by-passes or other devices which increase sound pressure levels, or change the original manufactured exhaust system of any motor vehicle shall be considered a violation of this chapter.
(Code 1950, 717.8; Ord. No. 237-99, 6, 3-29-99)
Cross reference(s)--Traffic regulation, Ch. 54.
State law reference(s)--Noise restrictions on the sale of new vehicles, C.R.S. 1973, 25-12-106.


No problem its good to have this info out where people can find a place to start.

As far as the cop speeding and using red lights etc. Sorry that won't make any difference. There is a clause in the emergency vehicle statutes that allows them to do that. Common example is responding to a prowler call they will cruise up blacked out. Not having red lights and siren running does change their liability exposure if there is an accident I believe, but it is legal.

Well we could petition Subaru to come out with a loud optional muffler, that would solve that problem. Not sure how they would deal with a Pro Drive muffler/exhaust system.

80 DBa is pretty loud. For example a 3 db increase in sound pressure is a doubling of the sound level. The human ear has very non-linear response to sound.

http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/e...sure_Level.pdf
http://www.lhh.org/noise/facts/recreation.htm
http://www.marthamine.co.nz/sound.html
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...sound/dba.html
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...und/acont.html

Note that the A filter (ie DBa ) has max sensitivity around 3000 Hz which is the tone human hearing is most sensitive to. If you knock that tone down you can have a loud throaty sound that will pass the test.
I do note that the statute does not specify the postion of the measurement from the vehicle, just the distance. That would mean that they could choose the worst possible location, directly behind the car as you accelrated away. That is one good reason to have a down turned tip on your exhaust instead of one of the open fart cannon designs. The sound gets bounced off the ground before it gets to the sound meter.

They also make small perforated cones that you can put inside the exhaust pipe to knock just a DB or 2 off the sound level if your real close. Many racers are using them because a lot of race venues are starting to put in sound limits.

Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 12-16-2003 at 02:51 AM.
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Old 12-16-2003, 02:59 AM   #18
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Default any condition

One interesting thought if you do get access to a DBa sound meter.

The statute lists any condition, so essentially your held to a worst case condition. If you could find the maximum loudness test value and condition possible for the stock muffler that would be a start. It is possible the test conditions that give the highest reading on the stock system will not be exactly the same on your system.

I'm not sure if they have a sound compliance testing capability or "official testing location" that you could get your system certified as legal for that sound statute.

I also agree that the bold section of the following sentence is too broad if constued to mean any physical change rather than any change the modifies the sound level.

Muffler cut-outs, by-passes or other devices which increase sound pressure levels, or change the original manufactured exhaust system of any motor vehicle shall be considered a violation of this chapter.

To interpret it in the most restrictive sense is probably illegal under federal law as it would be a restraint of trade and force the owner to purchase only repair parts from the OEM manufacture. I think SEMA would back up a class action to get that tossed or at least modified so it clearly is construed only to changes in maximum sound level changes.

http://www.sema.org/content/?id=7255
http://www.magnaflow.com/05news/news/sound.htm
http://www.cruisenights.info/cgi-bin...p?threadid=399
http://www.pavehiclenews.com/news.htm

http://www.slcstreetracing.com/forum...?TID=2623&PN=1 <------- contains important contact info for SEMA

You might want to drop SEMA a line on your situation so they have a heads up about agressive enforcement actions here in the Denver Metro area.

I would also recommend you post a link to these exhaust threads here and on clubwrx over to High Altitude Imports (if you haven't already) so there are more folks aware of whats going on.


Don't get mad, get the law changed

Larry

Last edited by hotrod; 12-16-2003 at 03:38 AM.
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Old 12-20-2003, 09:12 PM   #19
Chris Morgan
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Sorry bout your mis-fortune. Despite cops being complete idiots in so. flo. about our modded cars. Most the times i have been pulled over...cops complement my exhaust and tell me it sounds nice...in my subaru and VW.

-Chris
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Old 12-21-2003, 02:11 AM   #20
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File a complaint.
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Old 12-21-2003, 01:56 PM   #21
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i agree with larry.

fight the power.

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