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Old 12-16-2003, 08:26 PM   #1
Predator3
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Default 2005 WRX in relation to 2005 STI

Some people are saying that the new STI will have more power and possibly a cheaper price...

Does anyone have any ideas what the 2005 WRX will be? I'm hoping that they add more power so it can compete with an SRT4 since my friend owns one....
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Old 12-16-2003, 08:53 PM   #2
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According to my dealer rep:

STI *may* get 330HP, will certainly *not* be cheaper.

WRX will remain unchanged from 04, may stay unchanged until redesign in 06/07.
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Old 12-16-2003, 09:01 PM   #3
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Default Re: 2005 WRX in relation to 2005 STI

Quote:
Originally posted by Predator3
Some people are saying that the new STI will have more power and possibly a cheaper price...

Does anyone have any ideas what the 2005 WRX will be? I'm hoping that they add more power so it can compete with an SRT4 since my friend owns one....
Compete how? In a straight line? B-O-O H-O-O

Just take him on any other surface type besides a straight line and see how much that power can compete with the beauty of all wheel drive.
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Old 12-16-2003, 10:19 PM   #4
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As I mentioned in the STi thread, Subaru needs to sit down and rethink their Impreza line in respect to pricing. It is very quickly getting outclassed in respect to the competition.

IMO, the WRX should get the 250hp 2.5L that's going in the Legacy Turbo. It should also be reduced in price to a base around $22k with a fully optioned one going for no more than $25k. I think it's a mistake for them to sit on their hands about upgrading the performance of the car until the redesign. Really, they will almost have to do SOMETHING extra for the MY05 or they won't sell in anticipation for the MY06 redesign. They shouldn't expect everyone else to stay out of this market bracket for much longer. We already have the SRT-4 and I would expect a MazdaSpeed Mazda3 with possibly AWD in a year or two, the same may follow for the Focus, even the Volvo S40 is starting to look attractive (incidently, they all share platforms, except the current focus).

The base Impreza needs a HP bump (to around 200hp) or a price reduction (of around $3k) to remain a viable contender in whatever niche it's trying to occupy. Right now it's too expensive to be an entry level sedan and too underpowered to be an entry level performance sedan. It needs to pick one and go for it. When you can get something like a brand new Mazda3s for $16.5 that has 160hp, the only thing the Impreza has going for it is the AWD which isn't a huge selling point in this price bracket and is definatly not worth an extra $3k.

The STi should become much more fexible in respect to optioning and start around $27.5 It doesn't need any more power from the factory (or an inflated pricetag because of it). They should fix the steering rack and suspension to make it comparible to the JDM model in handling. They really need to adjust something here because they just aren't selling. I have 14 sitting on lots when looking at all the local Subaru dealers.
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Old 12-16-2003, 10:49 PM   #5
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Wow, talk about difference of opinion.

If AWD isn't a major selling point than Subaru may as well close up shop. That's the whole point of the company, the cars, and the marketing pitch.

The base impreza does just fine in its class. It was slightly more expensive than comparable cars when I bought mine in late 98. It didn't have outstanding power then either. But it had AWD which nothing else in that market segment had, or has now. So, they can very well sit on their hands until someone else offers a quality AWD system in that class.

I do agree with one thing in your post, the STi doesn't need any more power. It's already high on the disgusting (esp. for the money scale).

I suspect the reason why STi's aren't selling is because it's a pretty expensive car targetted at a very small market in a tough economy. Oh yeah, and it's winter. People generally don't buy summer cars in the winter!

Some parts of the country have STi's sitting on the lot and some parts of the country don't. So what if they are sitting on lots? Does every single one of them have to scream off the lot to make money? I think not.

The cars are well thought out and they sell pretty well. Now I'm always an advocate for more stuff for less money, but saying Subaru has to do this or that to survive is a lot of hot air.
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Old 12-16-2003, 11:25 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by reks
Wow, talk about difference of opinion.

If AWD isn't a major selling point than Subaru may as well close up shop. That's the whole point of the company, the cars, and the marketing pitch.

The base impreza does just fine in its class. It was slightly more expensive than comparable cars when I bought mine in late 98. It didn't have outstanding power then either. But it had AWD which nothing else in that market segment had, or has now. So, they can very well sit on their hands until someone else offers a quality AWD system in that class.
AWD isn't the whole point of their product line. The point of their product line is to offer excellent value at whatever market segment they choose to compete in (words bascially taken directly from the CEO's mouth). Back in '98 when you bought your RS, it was a much better value than it is today. 165hp and AWD when most were running around with only 120, meanwhile the price difference was about the same.

Lately, the entry level sedan market has creeped up in respect to power. Minimal base power is in the 130's with the shift to even higher levels coming this year. The mazda3 will be 144 or 160hp, the Corolla will be offering a 170hp varient, the regular Lancer gets an avaliable 162hp powerplant. I know this is all just talking about power, but there aren't many handling slouches in there either. Mazda always has very nicely tuned cars, that Corolla will have the same suspension bits as the Celica GT-S, and it's possible the Mits may actually spend some time on this Lancer. Oh yeah, they all weigh a few hundred pounds less than the RS making their HP count for much more.

After driving a Mazdaspeed Protege and remarking how close it came to my car handling wise and in feel (for a FWD car), I'm not going to play AWD snob to these new contenders. Even after owning my AWD car, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the Mazda3s to someone over the Impreza RS. Aside from the fact that only two wheels are being powered, I feel it's a much better value all the way around.



Quote:
Oh yeah, and it's winter. People generally don't buy summer cars in the winter!
I think several people on this board would like to argue the point that the STi is a summer car. With the ability to fully lock the AWD system, it's arguably the most winter suitable car that subaru makes. But I do agree that people generally buy cars less in the winter, but that still doesn't explain the glut of inventory as dealers would know this in advance an not order so many cars for the winter months.

Quote:
So what if they are sitting on lots? Does every single one of them have to scream off the lot to make money? I think not.
Cars sitting on a dealer lot are baaaad. The dealer has to finance what they have unsold on the lot. After awhile, the cars start costing them money to keep around. Cars that cost money to keep around don't get reordered by the dealer as much when they do get sold. If dealers start ordering fewer models, now subaru themselves are stuck with an inventory glut. Not only will this discourage future STi versions, Subaru is rather small to take a hit like that.


Quote:

The cars are well thought out and they sell pretty well. Now I'm always an advocate for more stuff for less money, but saying Subaru has to do this or that to survive is a lot of hot air.
I'm not sayin they have to do this to survive. I am saying they have to do this if they want to grow their marketshare. Subaru sales account for 1.2% of total car sales in the US. They are very much a niche manufacturer and if they want to move beyond that they have to become more competitive.
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Old 12-16-2003, 11:40 PM   #7
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Hey guys, you have a monster of a post coming from me so sit tight!
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Old 12-17-2003, 01:00 AM   #8
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Well, I don't really agree with your ideology much. I'd call it in a perfect world because I don't think all that much of what is said is completely viable, especially for a company the size of Subaru and if you want to keep seeing new car development at an all-time high for them.

The pricing as it stands on the STi is pretty good for what you get. Every EVO I've seen has the spoiler, sunroof and some other things bringing the price close to the STi. Now you might argue, the STi doesnít get a sunroof for that price. I think itís better off that way. Less weight, less cost, something less to go wrong, more headroom for a helmet. After all, basically everyone I know who bought it, bought it to race it and helmets are required! Thatís a fact! Counterpoint, there are two areas it could drop a little price and sacrifice a little; wheels and spoilers. While I do like and very much appreciate the current packaging, as we now have the gold-silver option for wheels, they could expand it to 2 more things, the type of wheels (BBS or World OE), and the wings (WRC or Whale-Tail.) If one chose the JDM/World Spec wheels and the low-profile wing a.k.a. Whale-Tail, you could potentially save perhaps a grand, maybe a little more. Market value difference of the BBS over JDM wheels is some $1200+ and the difference in the wings I saw was some $400+. I would say some $1000 to $1250 would be a fair break. $29,995 for that car is still one heck of a steal, a steal in a stealthier package.

The other thing I see that would really bring a more precise and confidance inspiring feel to the handling of the STi would be a speed-sensitive steering rack, which would be great for differences in track versus AutoX days or highway cruising. You generally don't need or want the closer ratio on the highway or higher speeds which would make it safer and less twitchy, while the close ratio at lower speeds, maybe as close as a 12:1 ratio to best the EVO for steering response. That is just my idea on a great improvement to help better position itself for the handling competition, which generally the EVO edges it out in most comparisons.

Additionally, the STi Wagon would be an enormous addition. I know 2 people that I have talked to in the last day that would put money down on a STi Wagon immediately (one already owns an STi, the other owns a WRX Wagon because he needs a Wagon.) This is a nice potential area as I noted. It allows for some utilitarian aspect to the vehicle which is huge for hauling all your gear to race events (like an extra set of wheels/tires, air tank, cooler, Rubbermaid container for everything else, etc.), whereas many donít think there is enough room in the Sedan for them. Itís a racecar with practicality and a little more subdued look than the sedan. I think the wagon version with everything the sedan does (less wing of course), and the option for the 2 wheels, and the normal $500 wagon deduction could come in as low as $29,000 with JDM type wheel. It is doable.

One thing that would be very nice would be to be able to get a second set of wheels at time of purchase as an option for a lower than normal price point only available with the purchase with an STi. After all this is a racecar, street legal, none-the-less racecar. If they want to offer it with high performance summer tires, give all STiís the option for a second set of wheels at a low cost point for an alternative for street tires at the choice of the owner, that way northern climate buyers can have their street-A/S tires and a set of race tires/wheels without having to change tires before they wear increasing the possibility of damage. Considering they donít sell that many STiís, it wouldnít cut their bottom line much if all to do that and it would really be increasing focus on the buyer and pleasing the buying experience.

Also, as the STi is set up it IS essentially a summer car. Offer a good set of A/S tires like Pirelli PZero Nero M&S tires if people want them or the wheel idea as listed above. People wonít want to drive a STi off the lots in the winter with DOT race tires. I know I sure wouldnít! My friend has had his garaged since the snow fell because heís been thinking about winter tires and after the RallyX he chose what I was running because of how well they worked in varying conditions. A couple of people Iíve talked to bought them recently, but they had A/S or winter tires ready when they bought their STi or would be mounted very soon after. For people that donít think about it, something as little as tires can be a turn-off. Itís sad but true.

*****

As for the rest of the Subaru line, this is where they are currently pricedÖ

Impreza Outback Sport (5MT) - $19,095
Impreza TS Wagon (5MT) - $17,895
Impreza RS Sedan (5MT) - $19,395
Impreza WRX Wagon (5MT) - $23,995
Impreza WRX Sedan (5MT) - $24,495
Impreza WRX STi Sedan (6MT) - $30,995

I donít see too many things wrong with it. Yes, it could be lacking in a few areas, but overall itís not as bad as I think you make it out to be Bull. There are many more things to look at than just power. First you have to make sure with a bump to that 200hp figure youíd like to see that emissions and fuel mileage meets or exceeds current standards. CAF… wouldnít like to see a drop. A modest bump to 170hp perhaps with better power curves while hitting the 30mpg EPA figures on highway cruising would be huge for Subaru. I see that as a much more likely possibility. That could cause problems for the WRX then if those numbers went south. Also, I donít see those models as much as a problem as I think you do. The AWD is worth it, especially in northern climates. I went RallyXing this last weekend and you know what, I ran my LegGT smartly against many FWD cars running good snows (BTW, I just ran a good set of A/S tires) and I was just laying into their times. Now there were a couple 2WD cars that did respectably, but AWD proved to be an ENORMOUS advantage and is worth the extra $$$ in my book. Most of the other AWD systems out there are in their infancy or just have yet to set a well-proven track record like Subaru. I know people all the time that are looking for older Subaruís! You wonít find that with Fords and most others, not in the same way at least. So itís really hard to compare these vehicles, particularly at the 100k, 200k-mile marks.

The remarks you Bull just donít add up as you just seem to compare on the performance market. The WRX is a great value for your buck and would be much better if the OE 4-pots and 16x7 or 17x7Ē wheels come standard which I canít guess one way or the other, but Iíd say at least 16x7Ē wheels should be reimplemented in the near future which just gives owners a better handling package and more options for brakes as I see the OE 4-pot brakes making it to the SPT performance catalog in the near future. Adding the same EJ255/7 to the WRX as in the Legacy 2.5GT also makes little sense in my book. The engine in the FXT, sure with a different tune for more economy, but not the same tune as the Legacy as that is spec-ed above the WRX and the owners of that car deserve more for what they are paying for, engine tune included. I really donít see the EJ25 turbo motors making it to the line before the new models debut for MY07. Thatís basically only another 2 models years at the current style. WOW time flies!

So I suspect the EJ205 will stay in the WRX for the foreseeable future of this generation but the EJ25 SOHC may receive some changes to boast better fuel economy with a boost in drivability. Expect no major changes before MY07 other than the potential addition of a WRX STi Wagon and maybe a slight power jump as high as 320hp. A more economical EJ25 with better grunt throughout the range may also make its way in before the change-over.

The Subaru range does decently well, but the new Legacy will be a turning point for Subaru, the change in direction. I think we will see some very good things, itís just hard to say what they will actually be, but the overall feature set, quality, and performance of the models have been improving to a point that will soon be in the same position it has sat in for years in Japan with the Legacy, the car line to beat. When looking for new cars for my sister, we looked at Mazda, Mitsu, Nissan, and others, but nothing seemed as well built or valuable as a Subaru. She had her heart set on Subaru AWD because of its track record and the overall reliability they have. You canít match it now and Iím sure in the near future. Sorry, but a Ford is still a Ford. Not to bash on them, they make some interesting products, but when it comes to AWD and production, nobody does it better than Subaru for the cost. Why do you think between my family and my sisters BF, there are 5 Subaruís! And all 4 of my family members drive them. After driving them and being used to them, nothing else stands level with them for year-round durability. I have done things I wouldnít have thought about with other cars, that is a testament to their product.

With each generation of product, there is a general evolution, from the GC to the GD it was a revolution, and it may very well happen again. Just wait to see what happens in the next several weeks with the Legacy and maybe a STi Wagon if weíre lucky. I donít think there is anything to be disappointed with or to make the loyal Subaru enthusiast look elsewhere if they have liked the past offerings.
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Old 12-17-2003, 01:25 AM   #9
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wow - you werent kidding...

Quote:
Originally posted by SUBE555
... After driving them and being used to them, nothing else stands level with them for year-round durability. I have done things I wouldnít have thought about with other cars, that is a testament to their product...
amen to that..

i hope the legacy does send subaru into a different light and opens peoples eyes to a company who still cares about quality, value, and, most importantly, the beauty of AWD...

im sure their new flagship will sell higher units than even the wrx or sti ever could because it has the same ideas but expressed towards an maturer audience... i just hope they dont forget the model that gave them the chance, and attention, to start out towards a new reputation...
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Old 12-17-2003, 02:10 AM   #10
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I guess being a 'new' subaru owner (two years on December 15th), I'm less inclined to take such a black and white view of things. They build very nice cars, but I'm not sure if I'm ready to give it such an unflappable recomendation that others are. They have their flaws, some that really should be addressed.

For one thing, I will never consider purchase of another subaru that has any variation of the current 5MT in it. I used to be one of the people that said "Don't abuse it and it won't give you trouble." Well, there I am at 25k miles and I suddenly develop the 4th gear crunch. I'm holding off taking it in to get it fixed (that's assuming they don't try to pawn the problem off as my fault somehow) because I'm afraid it will just happen again later down the line and want to postpone it as much as possible.

The sheet metal is far far too prone to minor denting. I was caught in a moderate hail storm. $3k worth of damage and dents to every body panel. I looked over some other cars that were in the very same parking lot and there were no visible signs of damage. 3 acorns fell off a tree ouside and put 3 nice dents on the car, two on the hood and one on the top of the fender. I slipped taking a lugnut off and my chin bounced off the fender, NICE big dent.

The paint is also very brittle and my car after two years looks more battle scarred than my corolla did after 15.

The windshield also exhibits more pitting than that same corolla.


The car is a hoot to drive and I'm not regretting my decision at all, but my experience has also not left me only looking to a Subaru dealer if and when I decide to get rid of this car. AWD is not the huge advantage that Subaru makes it out to be in 99% of the circumstances that you will encounter on the road. No offense, but the daily grind is not comparable to a rally-x and proper tires will turn just about any car into a competent winter commuter. As far as handling, that comes down to more how the factory tuned the suspension than it's drivetrain layout. Just ask anyone who's gone head to head against an ITR on the autocross course.

You have a long history of positive subaru experiences and because of that you are ready to dismiss the competition out of hand. First time buyers and non-Subaru owners only have what they see on the the spec sheet and what they feel on their test drives. I don't feel subaru has such a strong advantage there.

Remember, people compromise on their decisions all the time. They may be willing to trade two drive wheels for a little extra power or nicer interior or a few thousand dollars. I've mentioned myself a few times that if Mazda had gotten their act together and released the MS Protege sooner, I would be driving that today instead of my WRX. Sure it doesn't offer all the performance of the WRX, but it offers a significant portion of it for a significant discount.

I'm babbling and I'm tired, but I still maintain that Subaru needs to come down a little in prices, especially on the lower end.
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Old 12-17-2003, 02:34 AM   #11
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Agree with Bull on the pricing.
The Imprezas are getting outpriced by the competition, especially the new Mazda 3.

AWD is nice but not a necessity.
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Old 12-17-2003, 08:05 AM   #12
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U should be hired as a marketing jokester @ Subaru...
why u think they can drop the price $3000? Do u realize that will CUT MAJORLY into their profits (if any). Remember Subaru is a SMALL company...
I do hope they will bring 2.5 - 250hp.. They would be sweeeeet..
But then again it would cut into Legacy sales BIG time..

Quote:
Originally posted by bull3964
As I mentioned in the STi thread, Subaru needs to sit down and rethink their Impreza line in respect to pricing. It is very quickly getting outclassed in respect to the competition.

IMO, the WRX should get the 250hp 2.5L that's going in the Legacy Turbo. It should also be reduced in price to a base around $22k with a fully optioned one going for no more than $25k. I think it's a mistake for them to sit on their hands about upgrading the performance of the car until the redesign. Really, they will almost have to do SOMETHING extra for the MY05 or they won't sell in anticipation for the MY06 redesign. They shouldn't expect everyone else to stay out of this market bracket for much longer. We already have the SRT-4 and I would expect a MazdaSpeed Mazda3 with possibly AWD in a year or two, the same may follow for the Focus, even the Volvo S40 is starting to look attractive (incidently, they all share platforms, except the current focus).

The base Impreza needs a HP bump (to around 200hp) or a price reduction (of around $3k) to remain a viable contender in whatever niche it's trying to occupy. Right now it's too expensive to be an entry level sedan and too underpowered to be an entry level performance sedan. It needs to pick one and go for it. When you can get something like a brand new Mazda3s for $16.5 that has 160hp, the only thing the Impreza has going for it is the AWD which isn't a huge selling point in this price bracket and is definatly not worth an extra $3k.

The STi should become much more fexible in respect to optioning and start around $27.5 It doesn't need any more power from the factory (or an inflated pricetag because of it). They should fix the steering rack and suspension to make it comparible to the JDM model in handling. They really need to adjust something here because they just aren't selling. I have 14 sitting on lots when looking at all the local Subaru dealers.
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Old 12-17-2003, 08:29 AM   #13
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AWD is on all Subaru cars.. and it is staying that way...
Lets wait for Jan 6th before we fight more...
Subaru gonna do great with new Legacy.... they can get their profits from their, (IF) WRX sales are slowing down...
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Old 12-17-2003, 09:03 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by amdmaxx

why u think they can drop the price $3000? Do u realize that will CUT MAJORLY into their profits (if any). Remember Subaru is a SMALL company...
I do hope they will bring 2.5 - 250hp.. They would be sweeeeet..
But then again it would cut into Legacy sales BIG time..
Impreza sales only account for something like 10% of their car sales. Reducing their profits on the bottom end shouldn't hurt the bottom line too much. Many manufacturers actually loose money on their smallest car, but the idea is to bring people on to the brand young and with the loyalty that Subaru usually gets this would be a good move for them.

Let me ask you, why do you think that they NEED to charge that much for these cars? The engine has been virtually unchanged for years, ditto with the transmissions. The AWD systems have also not advanced much. Bascially, they should be really good at building this stuff cheaply by now. Then you have the pricing of the wagon to look at. Most of the car is exactly the same except for some sheetmetal and the standard wheels, yet it is $1,200 cheaper.

I also don't think a 250hp WRX would cut into legacy turbo sales. I know I wouldn't cross-shop the legacy and WRX and many other's wouldn't either. I have no use for a larger sedan and want to keep my cars as small as possible.
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Old 12-17-2003, 09:05 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by RA29
...AWD is nice but not a necessity.
Then don't buy a Subaru and don't complain about the pricing. Enough said.
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Old 12-17-2003, 09:20 AM   #16
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In Today's economy If I have a choice of 250hp FAST small car or 250 hp slower more $$$ car, I get WRX....
There is a reason Nissan Altima is 245 hp.... and Maxima is 265hp.. and G35 coupe 280...

Quote:
Originally posted by bull3964
Impreza sales only account for something like 10% of their car sales. Reducing their profits on the bottom end shouldn't hurt the bottom line too much. Many manufacturers actually loose money on their smallest car, but the idea is to bring people on to the brand young and with the loyalty that Subaru usually gets this would be a good move for them.

Let me ask you, why do you think that they NEED to charge that much for these cars? The engine has been virtually unchanged for years, ditto with the transmissions. The AWD systems have also not advanced much. Bascially, they should be really good at building this stuff cheaply by now. Then you have the pricing of the wagon to look at. Most of the car is exactly the same except for some sheetmetal and the standard wheels, yet it is $1,200 cheaper.

I also don't think a 250hp WRX would cut into legacy turbo sales. I know I wouldn't cross-shop the legacy and WRX and many other's wouldn't either. I have no use for a larger sedan and want to keep my cars as small as possible.
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Old 12-17-2003, 09:36 AM   #17
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I personally look at every model from the start. Well what do I want/need. Well AWD is a must first off. Well that counts like basically everyone else out. I like to RallyX, AutoX, and have a good all-season car. From there I see which features suit me best, whether it be a FXT, WRX, WRX STi, Legacy GT Turbo. Limiting myself to one thing allows you to be more easily disappointed if you don't see something.

The Legacy and WRX SHOULD NOT get the same engine, regardless of cutting in on sales, the Legacy GT Turbo owners will be paying a bit more for a better overall package, and they deserve more power at the same time. Period. The WRX could get something like a 230/245 engine, but it shouldn't get the same thing as the Legacy, no way, even if it does not cut into sales. It is the experience and package for the buyer. They must be set apart. You want more, get an STi.
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Old 12-17-2003, 09:50 AM   #18
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From a non-Subaru owner's perspective, AWD is important to me. Actually, one of my minimum criteria for my next car includes AWD or 4WD. This is due to the harsh winter I had last year and this year has started early and looks to be just as bad. In addition, I currently have a FWD with summer tires and a steep driveway. I currently park on the side of the road when snow is in the forcast.

The reality though for most ppl is AWD is just not neccessary. Most ppl with FWD cars have A/S tires and don't have steep driveways. Actually, I've never had a problem with my summer tired FWD in the snow once I got out of my driveway.

For most ppl, they would rather save a couple grand or have a little more performance than purchace something with AWD. If AWD was the be all, end all of drivetrains, why isn't every car in the every manufacturers lineup have AWD.

Regarding Subaru's pricing, I think they are fair. With Subaru, you pay more, but you also get more compared to the competition. Sure the Evo cost less than the STi, but Evo owners seem to be having more quality problems than STi owners. Sure, everyone would like to pay less for something, but price is not that much of an issue with me when I'm considering the Subaru.

BTW, the cars on my short list are: Subaru Forester XT, STi, Infiniti FX35, and the Chevy Colorado Crew Cab. All have AWD/4WD, 4 full sized doors, comfortable seating for 4 adults, and > 200 HP, > 200 lb/ft. The front runners are the XT and the FX35.
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Old 12-17-2003, 09:51 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by SUBE555
I personally look at every model from the start. Well what do I want/need. Well AWD is a must first off. Well that counts like basically everyone else out.
That use to be true, but more and more are in that Market.

For MY2004/5 the AWD criteria will include models like:
Mazda 3 and Mazda 6
DC 300C and Charger
Ford 500 and Focus
All of the Volvo line
All of the MB Line
BMW 3X Series
G35X
GM Colbalt, G6, GP, Bonniville, and almost all in the Caddy Line.

About the only ones not jumping into the Fray is Honda and Toyota, and Toyota is considering it for the '06 Camry.
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Old 12-17-2003, 09:59 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by SUBE555
Then don't buy a Subaru and don't complain about the pricing. Enough said.
Sube555: I normally agree with most of what you say, but this is ignorant. This attitude will drive new buyers away from subaru. Where I live we only get one or two good snows a year...not really enough to make AWD a necessity...and this is the case in a lot of the U.S. The reason I bought my WRX was it was the best performance value for its class. It's only a year later and that's not the case anymore. I would consider a MazdaSpeed Protoge and (dare I say it) an SRT-4 as better bang for your buck today.

Bull is right, if Subaru wants to bring more people into the fold it is important to have a viable option to attract young buyers. I was lucky, at 23 I could afford a WRX, but many younger buyers can't! The RS is simply too expensive to attract new buyers. I'm not sure I agree with his assesment on pricing for the rest of the Impreza line, but they need a better starting point.

Last point: AWD is being offered by more and more other carmakers. As this continues Subaru needs to show that they have the best value in AWD cars or they could be forced out of their own niche.

Just my $.02
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Old 12-17-2003, 10:16 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by amdmaxx
AWD is on all Subaru cars.. and it is staying that way...
Lets wait for Jan 6th before we fight more...
Subaru gonna do great with new Legacy.... they can get their profits from their, (IF) WRX sales are slowing down...
If I may ask what happens on Jan 6th?

I've been thinking of getting an STi, because I have a 99 M3 right now that desperately needs snow tires, and even then an m3 is a front engine / rwd layout which isn't great in snow.

From what I've heard I got really screwed by buying it in june time as the new bmw models mostly hit the streets by september and killed my values.

I'm curious what the time frames for other models to come out? Should I wait and just put some serious snow tires on my M3?
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Old 12-17-2003, 10:22 AM   #22
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I agree with Sube555. If you don't care about AWD, then don't buy a Subaru.

Even if I did not have winter in Ohio, I would still only buy a car with AWD. I like it that much. I don't even AutoX, but I drive hard, and when I lose traction on a turn because it's got gravel, leaves, rain, or maybe I'm just going too damn fast, AWD is what has kept me alive. I know this, because I used to drive a Mustang.

And beyond safety, it's just fun to drift the car all the way around exit ramps in the rain and the like.

What I'm saying is, when you are an AWD fanatic, there really is no other option. I don't care if an SRT4 only cost $10k, I would not be caught even looking at one.
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Old 12-17-2003, 10:29 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by notbob
If I may ask what happens on Jan 6th?

I've been thinking of getting an STi, because I have a 99 M3 right now that desperately needs snow tires, and even then an m3 is a front engine / rwd layout which isn't great in snow.

From what I've heard I got really screwed by buying it in june time as the new bmw models mostly hit the streets by september and killed my values.

I'm curious what the time frames for other models to come out? Should I wait and just put some serious snow tires on my M3?
It's supposidely the announcement date for the new Higher performance Legacy line.

Given it's already been released else in the world, it's already received rave reviews.
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Old 12-17-2003, 10:31 AM   #24
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Originally posted by mh_WRX


About the only ones not jumping into the Fray is Honda and Toyota, and Toyota is considering it for the '06 Camry.
That's only if you focus strictly on the sedan line. Toyota has an AWD Matrix and Rav4. Honda has the Element and CRV. The element is definatly cross-shoppable with the Forester and I would say the same about the Matrix/Vibe. In fact, my mom DID cross shop the Vibe, Forester, and Impreza wagon.

Forester was just a bit too expensive though she liked the seating position. The Impreza wagon didn't have a seating position that was ideal as the Forester or Vibe, but she considered it anyways. Though, it turned out to be too expensive as well. Quote her, "I don't need to spend extra money on a car with AWD, it's not really necessary." My dad feels the same way. AWD has been an option on the Safari/Astro for years and that's the vehicle he's been driving for awhile now (he needs to buy a new one every 3 years on his company car plan). He's never considered the AWD option, he makes do with a RWD van in (very hilly) Western PA with all-season tires on it and he has to travel a lot for a living. "I don't have a problem now, so why spend more on AWD?"

I'm not saying they should even consider for a moment making a car without AWD, that's part of their brand identiy and they should stay with it. I AM saying that they shouldn't expect the fact that they have it to automatically mean they can command a higher price for their cars.

For the sake of argument, lets pretend for a minute that the Impreza is a FWD car. Now what makes it stand out against the rest of the crowd of sedans out there? Certantly it is not exactly an eye turner at it's current price, there's really nothing that remarkable about it that demands $19k. That is what I'm saying, the AWD should be the clincher, the icing on the cake. It should be able to stack up against the competition in price/performance/features/quality without taking the AWD into account because it is not something many buyers find important and it is also something that Subaru will not be able to tout as exclusively theirs for much longer.

As far as me not even considering a legacy when shopping for cars for my needs, I stand by that. I say it again, I have no use for a larger car. A legacy would feel like a boat to me. No level of packaging is really going to make me consider a legacy as my next car as it is not the type of car I want.

Quote:
I agree with Sube555. If you don't care about AWD, then don't buy a Subaru.
That's a fine thing to say as a consumer, but it's a stupid elitist thing to say as a car maker. I don't know if you've noticed, but Subaru is trying to grow their brand and marketshare in the US, sitting back with that kind of attitude is not going to achieve that. The cars should sell themselves without taking AWD into consideration.
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Old 12-17-2003, 10:35 AM   #25
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Not necessarily HIGHER performance, but rather US spec Legacy..
And, of course, we all hoping they will be HIGHER spec models

Quote:
Originally posted by mh_WRX
It's supposidely the announcement date for the new Higher performance Legacy line.

Given it's already been released else in the world, it's already received rave reviews.
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