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Old 12-17-2003, 06:33 PM   #1
4wheelflyer
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Lightbulb E85 or pure ethanol conversion

Ive been doing some research into race fuels and came across ethanol, with some looking into , I found this fuel to be quite amazing and how foolish we are to use gasoline. right now 10% ethanol blends (E10) are availible across the US and CA and in some places E85 ,85%ethanol and 15% gasoline. In brazil more than half of cars and buses run on pure ethanol wich is a good indacation that it is a feasible conversion. As some of you know indy cars run on pure methanol wich is very close to ethanol but has some other not so nice properties, some say indy may be switching to ethanol. Top fuel dragsters use a mix of 70% nitromethane and 30% methanol wich produces mega power but a 25$ a liter may be a little pricey. Any way Im going to be swapping my old motor out for a EJ22T but Im thinking of converting my old motor phase II NA EJ22 to run on pure ethanol from what I have read it will not take to much to convert it. all you really need to do is up the CR and controle the A/F ratio, the timing and maybe larger injectors and upgraded fuel delivery system (lines ,filter, pump).
So I was just wondering if any one here has thought about this, or has any experience with ethanol, methanol or nitromethane.
And here is the best part, this fuel is made from corn or grain or sugarcane and burns way cleaner with no carbon monoxide or benzne or sulphur

here is a bit of info (mostly E10)

How will using ethanol-blended fuels affect my vehicle?

What is the effect of using ethanol-blended fuels on the manufacturer's warranty of my vehicle?
When the use of ethanol began in 1979, most automobile manufacturers did not even address alcohol fuels. As soon as each manufacturer tested their vehicles, they approved the use of a 10% ethanol blend. Today, all manufacturers approve the use of 10% ethanol blends, and some even recommend it for environmental reasons.

Is it necessary to make changes to my vehicle in order to use ethanol-blended fuels?
All cars built since the 1970s are fully compatible with up to 10% ethanol in the mixture.

Will ethanol-blended fuels work in fuel-injected engines?
Yes. It may be necessary to change the filter more frequently. Ethanol helps to clean out the fuel-injection system, and may aid in the maintenance of a cleaner engine.

Since 1985, all ethanol blends and nearly all non-ethanol gasolines have contained detergent additives that are designed to prevent injector deposits. These detergents have been very effective in addressing this issue.

Does ethanol in the fuel work as an effective gas line anti-freeze?
Gas line anti-freeze contains alcohol-usually methanol, ethanol, or isopropyl, which can be used up to a 0.3% level in a car's fuel tank. All alcohols have the ability to absorb water, and therefore condensation in the fuel system is absorbed and does not have the opportunity to collect and freeze. If an ethanol blend contains 10% ethanol, it is able to absorb more water than a small bottle of isopropyl, and eliminates the need and expense of adding a gas line anti-freeze.

Will ethanol burn valves?
Ethanol will not burn engine valves. In fact, ethanol burns cooler than gasoline. Ethanol high-powered racing engines use pure alcohol for that reason.

Will using ethanol-blended fuels plug the fuel filters in my vehicle?
Ethanol can loosen contaminants and residues that have been deposited by previous gasoline fills. These can collect in the fuel filter. This problem has happened occasionally in older cars, and can easily be corrected by changing fuel filters.

Symptoms of a plugged fuel filter will be hesitation, missing, and a loss of power. Once your car's fuel system is clean, you will notice improved performance.

What is the effect of using ethanol-blended fuels on fuel economy?
Changes in fuel economy are minimal. While a 10% ethanol blend contains about 97% of the energy of 'pure' gasoline, this is compensated by the fact that the combustion efficiency of the ethanol-blended fuel is increased. The net result is that most consumers do not detect a difference in their fuel economy, although many people using ethanol-blended fuels have said that their fuel economy has improved.

from
http://www.greenfuels.org/ethaques.html
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Old 12-18-2003, 12:37 PM   #2
Jaxx
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i considered going this way as i have a stand alone ecu

i came to
needing substancialy larger injectors
replacing the entire fuel system
finding a source for the ethanol..

but in some states like CA ... you get a tax credit for driving an alterative ve-hickel
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Old 12-18-2003, 07:06 PM   #3
4wheelflyer
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I forgot to metion the tax breaks too, but you are right Jaxx a stand alone would be ideal for ethanol. from some of the info I have collected you need to increase fuel flow by about 20%-30%and advance your timing a few deg because ethanol will not predetonate like gasoline, wich would also be sweet for forced induction.

a question for you Jaxx , what kind of timing controle do you have with a stand alone, can you set the timing your self?

one of my friends that works for SOC went to STI in Japan and talked to a bunch their tuning guys ,any ways a long story short they ran ethanol in built V5 or V6 and dyno'd it at 680+ HP

well I have to admit ,ethanol sounds really promising and I will do a lot more research into it, as a fuel it just makes so much sense.
think about this, where would the USA and Canada be if they did not have to import cruid oil ? and what would be the benifit?
both the US and Can produce more than enough grains and corn ect... to fuel all of N .america, now picture all of the cash from oil sales going to the farmers of n america instead of over seas countrys......... that would be great ,no more oil wars, better economy and the best part clean 140 oct super juice
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Old 12-19-2003, 12:07 PM   #4
Jaxx
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tec 2 and yes fuel and timing are 100% adjustable

the tec has provisions built in to run it
i would highly recomend a tec 3 over a used tec 2 tho
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Old 12-19-2003, 03:00 PM   #5
scotty305
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I plan on experimenting w/ ethanol eventually, probably in combination w/ a turbocharger or supercharger. Right now Ethanol's a bit tough to find in California. There's a gas station in San Diego that sells it in 55-gallon drums, and also has a regular pump. If you're interested I can probably find a link.


I think BioDiesel (very similar to ethanol) would be a quicker solution, it would work in all the diesel-powered vehicles that exist today without any modification. (ie; semi trucks) , and distribution is a smaller scale, there are less truck stops than gas stations.


Ethanol & BioDiesel would free America from foreign oil dependence, create more jobs, and save the environment. All we need to do is get the ball rolling in California, and the rest of the states would fall into line. The main obstacle is politics; petroleum has made many people rich, and the rich don't like giving up power or wealth.


-scott-
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Old 12-19-2003, 04:00 PM   #6
spcled
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IIRC the stoic ratios for theoretical gasoline (usually C9H20 - i say this is theoretical because gasoline has so much other crap in it) and ethanol you need just about twice as much ethanol to produce the same amount of energy. Ethanol also burns much cooler than gasoline and does predetonate (as mentioned above). Some ideas would be dual injectors (this way you can do both gasoline and ethanol simply by engaging/disengaging one set of injectors) or a NOS type system where you just blow a boatload of ethanol into it and let the injectors do the fine tuning on the amount.
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Old 12-19-2003, 06:29 PM   #7
4wheelflyer
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thanks Jaxx , I will look into the tec 3 ,so it has a map for ethanol ?
if it does that will make things much better for tuning, now I am considering running the EJ22T on ethanol because of the high boost it will produce, from what I understand more boost will make the ethanol burn better. wich would result in a minimum of a 25% power increase

I found a bit more info on CR, AFR, and ignition

CONSUMPTION

The correct air-fuel ratio for petrol is 14.1 to 15.1, but for alcohol it is 7.1 to 9.1 so that means we must pass at least twice the weight of fuel, in the case of alcohol, to heat the same amount of air to the same temperature as we need for petrol.

Since the specific gravity of the two fuels is near enough the same it means in effect we have to pass through the jets double the quantity of the fuel.

Apart from doubling up the flow capacity of the jets, and we would add here that this does not mean doubling up the diameter of
the jet hole as many people think, but, in fact, increasing the diameter by 1.4 times or if you like by 40 per cent since a little thought will remind you of the fact you are dealing with the area of the hole in the jet and not the diameter.

It is of little use increasing the capacity of the jet to pass double the amount of fuel unless steps have been taken to establish that the fuel lines, taps, float chambers and so on are also capable of passing double the fuel and the actual flow should be measured.

RICH SIDE

Now unlike petrol you will find alcohol fuel will continue to provide increased power for a mixture well above the ideal mixture strength and you can always tend, therefore, to jet up on the rich side, and so avoid any possible chance of running into troubles through weak mixture causing burnt valves and holed pistons.

This larger amount of fuel compared to petrol and especially as it is a fuel with much higher latent heat value tends to do two things. The density of the charge entering the engine is higher than petrol and a greater weight of mixture is therefore being exploded.

This is a fuel with a large cooling effect provided by part of it evaporating after it has reached the combustion chamber and so tending to cool the valves, piston and so on.

Some may well get into the combustion chamber as liquid, due to the reduction in temperature of the induction system, pipes, carburetor, etc., and so extending the cooling effect, in the process counteracting the effect of the high internal temperature.

In view of this amount of fuel entering the chamber, with possibly some of it in liquid form, the ignition system must be beyond reproach since if the spark is weak the mass of fuel will just soak the plug and then at once ignition troubles arise affecting starting in particular.

Owing to the use of alcohol a higher compression ratio can be used with this fuel as compared with petrol, another consideration is the type of plug used which will be a hotter type than used before with petrol.

NINETEEN TO ONE

We have just mentioned the higher possible compression ratio used with alcohol and the limit that can be used with any particular fuel depends on the tendency of the fuel to detonate.

As a rough guide the ratio for petrol is limited to about ten to one, or with certain additives to as much as 12 to one. With alcohol, however, you can go up to 19 to one or higher in certain cases. (For all practical purposes however, 14 to one should be considered the maximum usable ratio in modern short stroke automotive engines.)

The possible use of a much higher ratio, of course, means we get a higher power output from the engine, and this, in fact, is almost the main advantage of alcohol fuel.

DETONATION

Detonation with alcohol fuel is really not a problem, but pre-ignition is, or could be unless the mixture is kept well on the rich side.

The reason for this is that if the mixture is on the weak side it burns slowly and can still be so doing when the exhaust valve has opened which then becomes overheated. This in turn ignites the next charge before the correct time, the whole process becoming a chain reaction causing even more rise in temperature and so it goes on until the piston holes and other damage then follows.

The first signs of this process taking place are a loss of power, a general rise quite quickly of overall temperature, the head in particular.

To avoid this, run on the rich side always and use plugs with a good heat capacity.

It might be worth mentioning at this point that an engine set up correctly for running on alcohol, even though on a rich mixture, will be found to be (compared to petrol), a much cleaner running engine inside the cylinder head, and provided the ignition side is up to its job there will be less fouling of plugs than on petrol.

IGNITION SETTING

Due to the different rate of burning of alcohol compared to petrol the ignition setting will have to be changed.

It will have to be advanced and the amount necessary will depend on the shape of the cylinder head and general design.

For example, on a well designed hemi-head an extra five to six degrees might well be enough, whereas on a poor designed head it might be something like 15 degrees.

Optimum ignition setting is tied up with the air-fuel ratio and it will be found that with alcohol it is not so critical as with petrol, that is to say the drop off of power is not so progressive as will be seen later.
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Old 12-20-2003, 12:26 PM   #8
scotty305
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So then,
On a stock 2.5RS ECU & pistons, if you were to convert to ethanol, add a turbocharger and upgrade fuel delivery system, you might not need to do anything else except for change to hotter spark plugs? The ignition system's reputed to be pretty good already.


-scott-
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Old 12-20-2003, 06:25 PM   #9
4wheelflyer
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ya so far it does not seem you have to change to much, but I think if you where to run pure ethanol ,you would need a standalone to make sure the ignition was set right . but if you where using a 50/50 mix you may not need to do any thing and the ECU will make up for the difference (maybe)
Im going to see if I could use a apexi SAFC for the time being to test ethanol mixes up to 50-60% in my stock EJ22, it already has a CR of 10.1 so it should work well for that mix.
I may have a connection for a steel drum of this stuff, so when I get it ,I will post up some more details
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