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Old 06-25-2000, 02:19 PM   #1
rao
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Lightbulb Let's talk about the Rimmer Supercharger

I am posting this in a new thread because I feel that it is necessary to respond to some of what Al Gainey said in a related post http://www.impreza-rs.com/ubb-files/...ML/009846.html and the discussion has turned far from the original thread. This not in any way a personal attack of Al, just as I don't view his comments as being a personal attack of me.

Al, I must take issue with some of what you stated. I was fully prepared for some fine tuning that I expected to be associated with the kit, and I discussed this at length with Rimmer over the 8 month wait for the kit. I used to talk to Brandon at least every other day. However, I was not willing to redesign the kit myself. I followed each and every one of Rimmer's suggestions. Granted, they ran out of suggestions after a few days, but that's not my problem. I only returned the kit once I realized (1) that the kit had never been installed and operated on a MY2000, (2) that they did not have a full understanding of the changes made to the MY2000 and (3) that Rimmer had no further ideas on how to correct the problem.

I'm sure that they will eventually figure out how to make it work on a MY2000, but to date they have not, and it has been at least 6 weeks since they were aware of my troubles.

I have more than enough mechanical skill to install that kit, and, more importantly, to understand all of the systems involved. In fact I had made a substantial investment in various equipment to help to fine tune the kit once it was installed.

The fact is that the people who built the kit have not been able to make it work on a MY2000 - even to this day - so it should be no surprise (and certainly no indication of my mechanical ability) that I couldn't make it work. I am quite capable of performing much more challenging mechanical work.

-->If I am wrong and there is a MY2000 with the same kit installed I would really like to know about that fact - e-mail me or post it here.<---

Also, it is a fact that no one at Rimmer has returned my phone calls (outside of a single e-mail from Brandon relating to my new car), or made any attempt to contact me since I decided to return the kit.

I have moved on though I do have some outstanding issues with Rimmer which I will deal with.

This is exactly why I had no interest in posting my experiences here, other than the fact that the kit did not work on my car.


[edit to highlight one sentence]

[This message has been edited by rao (edited June 25, 2000).]
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Old 06-25-2000, 04:09 PM   #2
Red-Imp
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Question

I'm glad to see this under discussion. I've been planning to put the Rimmer Sidwinder kit on my car (6 months to a year from now) but I'd heard a few rumors that had me worried. Maybe you folks can clarify some of these and help keep me (and all of us) informed on the progress of the kit. I'd love to see posts from Rimmer themselves (Rick or Brandon). I spoke with Brandon on the phone 6-or-8 months ago when I was shopping for my car. The pending availablity of the Rimmer kit was one of the reasons I finally decided to buy the RS (since it is a little under powered for a car of its cababilities and heritage.

Rumor 1: Rimmer has gone bankrupt. I saw mention in the prevous thread of new backing. Whats the real story. Is Rimmer going to be around to support their product? Is the sidewinder going to be available in the future?

Rumor 2: The Rimmer kits have problems on the 2000 RS. Apparently more then a rumor. I really want one, but I really want it to be reliable. I'd love to hear details about a test plan, successful tests on a 2000 RS, and exact problem/solution analysis from Rimmer. (I'm an engineer, so don't spare the technical detail. I'll look up the math if I have to.)

Yes I'm a Scooby Newbie, but I've read the previous thread and I know there are some diametrically opposed opinions here. I'd really like to see a real, civil, and technical discussion of this.

BTW: I'm very glad this forum exists. Let's use it to solve this issue. I'm not a Rimmer lover or hater. I just want a good blower for my RS, and I lean towards a supercharger. However, I'd like to hear about any other forced induction kits, their performance, and their reliability. Somebody spawn a new thread you have any info.
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Old 06-25-2000, 05:32 PM   #3
N/A
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RAO, I'm glad you're willing to keep the question of the Rimmer Supercharger as civil as possible. I remember when it was said that you returned the unit. At the time I wondered if you would comment on it. I didn't read the thread where it was made into a personal attack on you. I'm glad I didn't cause from the sounds of it you were explaining yourself rather well and your reasoning for returning the product. Thanks for coming on and trying to help out. I know I wasn't aware of the problems with the MY00. Has anybody turbo'd a MY00 yet? Is it also impossible to turbo the MY00?
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Old 06-25-2000, 06:19 PM   #4
rao
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N/A - no one made a personal attack, I just wanted to be clear that I wasn't attacking Al. I have no idea if anyone has successfully turbo'd a 2000.
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Old 06-25-2000, 07:11 PM   #5
ARG
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Lightbulb

I'm glad RAO, that you did not see my post as an attack on you personally as that was not my intent. I did not imply that you were mechanically inept, so I hope that you did not take it that way. I will make sure that you will be taken care of RAO. I will contact Rick Rimmer and talk to him about any issues you may have. We have a lot of correspondance lately. Please email me privately about the particular issues that you have.

If it makes you feel any better, I also had some issues with the kit when I first recieved it. I slowly and methodically worked through each of them. Granted, the issues were more simplistic than what you were dealing with; the kit was designed around the MY99 RS. At this very moment, I am trying to get Brandon Grantham to change the orientation of the Autorotor in relationship to the horizontal plane of the engine to give more access to the spark plugs and valve clearance adjustments.

As far as the MAP sensor issue is concerned, there are several people working on it as I type this. Rick faxed me an email from a guy in Venezuela who had also ordered a 00 kit. This person is an electrical engineer and has found what he believes to be the cause of problems. The findings are that the MAP sensor needs a piggy back sensor to regulate the signal to the ECU. The MAP is telling the ECU to cut fuel under boost. Rimmer hopes to get the 00 kit perfected by the end of July.

Rick Rimmer did declare bankruptcy after an investor cleaned out all bank accounts and left. Not only did the investor take his money, but he took Ricks money and kit deposits as well. Ok, now that Rimmers dirty laundry is hanging out for everyone to see......any more questions?

Rick closed down his original business and website and opened another one. That was the only way to stop the investor from doing more damage. Rick is back on track and in the process of tying up loose ends. I spoke to Rick Rimmer and told him it would be in his best interests to take care of any disgruntled customers. Anyone remember the bad publicity a while back regarding JC Sports? As far as I know, JC Sports has improved upon customer satisfaction and is continuing to improve in other areas as well. As we all know, bad publicity travels much faster, and with more ferver, than good publicity.

Again, I will help anyone that has issues with Rick Rimmer or his company. Just send me an email privately.

Best regards, ARG
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Old 06-25-2000, 07:13 PM   #6
Imprezer
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Thumbs down

Here is what I have to say on the subject. Rimmer was rude and that dude that was with him in silver RS in LA during N vs S meet was rude, the kit looked "ok" but was obviously underequipped with fuel management and gauges. I regularly talk to 2 people that have Rimmer kit on order and simply get amazed on how poor Rimmer's customer service is. They sell a 2000 kit without knowing that it works good and THEN they want to help the customer with it? Pardon me, after 4k+ and lond ass wait it has to work better than the customer expected.

Al, I know that your kit works great on your car. What I don't know for a fact, but pretty sure about is that the content of origial Rimmer parts in your kit is minimal. Knowing you I am sure you redid most of the stuff and used your own parts. Not everyone is a tech guru like you. When people see "bolt on" and buy it, it has to bolt on.

On a scale from 1-10 I would give that Supercharger Kit a 3.

[This message has been edited by Imprezer (edited June 25, 2000).]
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Old 06-25-2000, 08:23 PM   #7
ARG
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Exclamation

As you can see fome my pics in the members section, I did modify the kit extensively. And you are correct, I am a perfectionist. Being a perfectionist really sucks. I wish there was a pill I could take to make me "normal." I have a bad habit of riding in other people's cars and telling them everything that is wrong with it. Most people don't want to know what's wrong with there cars!

Remember, I did take delivery of the FIRST MY99 supercharger kit. I worked on it for two solid weeks, perfecting every single part of the kit. I wish I had the time, I would drive to Colorado and show Brandon how I modified the kit.

I would give my kit at least a 9
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Old 06-25-2000, 08:49 PM   #8
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Al, I would probably give your kit a 10 and that is exaclty my point. You kit and original Rimmer kit are totally different. You should take over whats left of that wannabe company and show them what needs to be done in order to satisfy customers instead of pissing them off to a point where they no longer want to keep the car they once really liked.
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Old 06-25-2000, 09:48 PM   #9
ColinL
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I have a question.

rao, did they provide a new MAP sensor? It seems elementary that a MAP equipped NA car would have only the capacity to measure about atmospheric and that any positive pressure (boost) would necessitate a new sensor. That's why TEC-II (and lot of others) come with a variety of sensors dependant on the manifold pressure.

Just curious...
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Old 06-25-2000, 10:50 PM   #10
8Complex

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Just a note, and I'm not an electrical engineer or anything - just what I'm believing I understand...

From what I understand is that the MAP sensor does not regulate the air/fuel ratio, but rather it is compared with the throttle position and the ECU uses an internal "map" for the air/fuel ratio. Hence the run rich problem with an intake.

Now if you put positive pressure here rather then vacuum, you either 1 - confuse the hell out of the ECU, or 2 - have a MAP sensor that doesn't read positive pressure (as stated above).

A while back I had read that someone had to relocate their MAP sensor before the (don't remember if it was SC or TC) to get good readings and running right. Somehow I doubt it, but you never know.
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Old 06-26-2000, 03:43 AM   #11
rao
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Colin, they did not provide a different map sensor, but that was not the problem. Typical practice (see Jackson Racing for how they deal with this for map sensor equuipped hondas) is to relocate the map sensor so that it continues to see vacuum only. The map sensor supplies voltage in proportion to the amount of vacuum. There are map sensors designed to see boost (I had one for my additional injector controller) and their response is more complicated - they will produce a signal of close to 0v when in vacuum and will produce about 2v at atmosperic and 5v at 1 bar (or 2 bar or whatever their max is - at least for the typical GM sensor used by most people). You can't just substitute a different MAP sensor in place of the stock one, because the ecu will not be able to deal with it - even if you could find a sensor that would fit - the outputs are totally different.

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Old 06-26-2000, 05:59 AM   #12
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Turbocharging / Supercharging a car with a factory MAP sensor ie. Hondas is easy to get around. What you do is remove the MAP sensor from the intake manifold, and attatch a vacuum line to the hole where the MAP sensor was. Then you put a check valve (available from f-max, www.f-max.com) on a T fitting and put it in line before the MAP, and attatch the MAP on the other end of the vacuum line. It will allow the MAP to read vacuum, but when the turbo/supercharger begins boosting the check valve opens, and allows the positive pressure to escape and tricks the MAP int believing it is at 0 vacuum, just like WOT.
 
Old 06-26-2000, 06:24 AM   #13
ColinL
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Question

Okay, next question.

How in the hell can that type of adaption come close to properly metering airflow?
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Old 06-26-2000, 06:31 AM   #14
rao
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These are 2 different ways to approach the problem. By placing the MAP on the non-pressurized side of theintake, it will see full vacuum at WOT, which is what it is supposed to see - fuel delivery is a differnt matter, and that's why you need a FPR or additional injectors. Having the MAP sensor not see boost by using a check valve gives you some different problems, because the MAP sensor will be reporting low load values when the egine is under high load conditions, but it does work and that is how most honda turbos are set up. Remember that a N/A map sensor gives more voltage with more vacuum and a turbo map sensro gives more voltage with more boost.

[This message has been edited by rao (edited June 26, 2000).]
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Old 06-26-2000, 07:26 AM   #15
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Ok... Once you do the MY2000 MAP sensor like a honda, you should look into an additional injector controller. The Greddy Rebic is bad ass, but it costs like $900. There is one available from ERL called the MF2. It is available at www.fmax.com aswell. Then buy 4 440 cc/min injectors and the bungs for them. Then droll a hole in each runner and weld the bung to in, and install the injectors. They are driven by their own MAP sensor, so where the stock one cuts out the one from the injector controller will take over and start firing the additional injectors. That is the best way to go. Rising rate fuel pressure regulators are a cheap, inacurate, and crappy way of adding more fuel.
 
Old 06-26-2000, 08:05 AM   #16
rao
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Dr. you're a little late in the game on this. I had a MF-2, with it's own GM 2 bar MAP sensor and an additional injector, that wasn't the problem. Incidentially, I sold the MF-2 to ARG for use with his water injection system.
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Old 06-26-2000, 08:07 AM   #17
Sean McElderry
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I have just run into this MAP problem. My MY00 RS was fitted with the Minnam Stage II turbo kit last week. I can only run 3psi of boost without the ECU pulling back fuel. I was planning on running a replacement ECU (TEC-II or Link), but if this is just a MAP problem, then perhaps the fix is easier than I thought.

Can anyone clearly describe a way to use the stock MAP sensor with boost? Either that, or can someone recommend an aftermarket MAP sensor that will work with the stock ECU? Thanks!

Sean
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Old 06-26-2000, 08:24 AM   #18
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Glad to see this thread..

I've been really looking at the rimmer kit as an option.. but I've heard things..

Nice to be able to read about everyones experinces...

these are all things to take into consideration when going big with something like this.
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Old 06-26-2000, 03:29 PM   #19
Sean McElderry
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I've been talking with Disraeli Wever in Venezuela who has successfully run 8psi of boost on a supercharged MY00 EJ20 Impreza. His fix seems pretty easy.

He uses a J&S Fuel Controller to vary the MAP sensor's voltage. Basically, it's a voltage clamping device that limits the voltage delivered to the ECU by the MAP.

His MAP was sending 3.85 volts to the ECU under WOT before his supercharger was installed. When the boost was turned up to 8psi, he was seeing about 5 volts from the MAP. So he used the J&S Fuel Controller to limit the voltage delivered to the ECU to about 4.65 volts. This way, the ECU delivers a ton of fuel (whatever the map is for 4.65 volts) at 8psi of boost. Make sense? I hope this works

Sean
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Old 06-26-2000, 04:46 PM   #20
rao
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Disraeli Wever's setup is the old Eaton based Rimmer system and his car is a 2.0 liter MAP sensor engine not available in the US. I don't know if it has the map sensor in the manifold like the RS or on the throttle body like the 2000 Legacy. I suspect it is on the throttle body because that is why his map sensor voltage went up - it was seeing more vacuum than before.

Once again, I would be very interested if anyone has has success in installing the Rimmer Autorotor based kit on a US spec 2.5RS - I do not believe that it has been done.

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Old 06-26-2000, 05:14 PM   #21
8Complex

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Hey if you get the kit for me, I'll make it work.

Doh, that'd put me in SMod, though. Oh well... I'd put up with the class for that, i think.
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Old 06-26-2000, 07:08 PM   #22
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I would love to install a rimmer and get it operating for you all, but I have yet to hear a response from anyone that I have made enquires too.

Supposedly they have an eaton pdp on the ST-X and it "works" there. I think that is the exact same sohc 2.5liter that is in the RS, but I have gotten no information confirming or denying anything there either. What are they using for a ECU and MAP sensor with that?
If anyone can get some answers about the ST-X you may find a solution to supercharging the 2000RS.

-p
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Old 06-26-2000, 07:57 PM   #23
rao
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Rimmer had no connection whatsoever with the design of the ST-X. I believe it was done by someone in Michigan. The details were posted a while back.

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Old 06-27-2000, 03:34 PM   #24
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Sean is correct. The only way to make this work at all with the stock ECU is to clamp the output voltage level.

Under WOT the car will see close to atmospheric pressure on a N/A car...not full vacuum.

JC sports has a device that is already set based on tuning on a Turbo'd 2000 RS. Contact them for a solution to pressurizing the 2000RS's.

Mark
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Old 06-29-2000, 07:56 PM   #25
Red-Imp
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Has anyone tried the new kit (on a MY00 or MY99)?
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