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Old 02-09-2004, 07:23 PM   #1
Templar
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Default My "angry mob" theory

Ok, I have to say that the "angry mob" is happening at Nasioc.

What usually starts an angry mob is a couple of uninformed, uneducated, or just flat stupid people, who then use fear to lead others into hysteria.

An example, apparently there is a growing viewpoint on this board that synthetic gear oil should never be used because it causes problems in our gearboxes, and that OEM tranny fluid should be the only thing used.

HOGWASH!!!

I know of far too many individuals who have run many different brands of synthetic tranny fluids with no problems. I ran Royal Purple on the RS and now run Redline Shockproof on the WRX. Not only did both cars work just fine, but shifting actually got smoother on both cars after the addition of the synthetic gear oil. That is just me, I know of another WRX with over 60k on synthetic gear oil.

As far as going to a dealership, do these people even realize that different dealerships use different oils. It depends on the oil supplier. At Prestige we use Castrol oils. Hunter in Hendersonville uses Kendall.

It is my personal belief that if someone puts synthetic oil in there tranny, then has problems, then they either
A) had a problem before and the change in fluid allowed it to start showing itself
B) Are liars
C) are too stupid to properly change their transmission fluid on there own.
D) decided that now that they have synthetic they can start clutch dropping at 5000 rpms, then get a problem and blame the gear oil.
E) All of the above.


This is my angry mob theory and I think that too many people are trying to get information from morons on the internet instead of talking to professionals, or seeking professional help, whichever they feel is more appropriate.

Kent
The opinionated one.

Don't even get me started on mandatory, televised public executions for child molesters, murderers, and computer virus writers.
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Old 02-09-2004, 07:33 PM   #2
newscooby
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easy there Kent.

maybe a little less caffeine for you tomorrow....mmmmmkay

For the record, I've have Redline 75W-90NS in my tranny and 75W-90 in my rear dif since my first fluid swap. I still can't get into first when moving more than 10 mph and I still grind going into 4 quickly. But hey, I'm almost at 80K miles....and still on my first tranny (knocks on LARGE chunks of wood). So, I must be doing something right......

mike
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Old 02-09-2004, 07:36 PM   #3
Rated R1
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Well I haven't been one of the ones spreading any misinformation. I will say that syncros do need friction to work. If synthetic oils are so great at reducing friction they will reduce the effectiveness of the sycros. Then we will have to double-clutch instead of granny-shifting. But wait! according to Dom that's what we are supposed to do!
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Old 02-09-2004, 07:37 PM   #4
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I have NEVER heard of anyone having probs with redline fluids

I used it in my RS, use it in the miata...My friend Nick used it in his supra, Mpaone uses it in his L...

-justin
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Old 02-09-2004, 07:39 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rated R1
Well I haven't been one of the ones spreading any misinformation. I will say that syncros do need friction to work. If synthetic oils are so great at reducing friction they will reduce the effectiveness of the sycros. Then we will have to double-clutch instead of granny-shifting. But wait! according to Dom that's what we are supposed to do!
oh then why does shifting into second in my miata get better with my redline synthetic?

and OH why was I able to shift into 1st from 2nd in the RS only AFTER putting the redline synthetic fluid in there?

IMO it reduces friction and lets the gear slide in Easier.

-justin
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Old 02-09-2004, 07:43 PM   #6
tcarter
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Woa Buddy..

I agree with you mostly.

You should have put a F) option in for people like me.
I did develop an issue with synthetic gear oil. Nothing major, and nothing really to complain about.

I think with the stock gear oil it wouldn't let me get into first a certain speed and now that I have the slippery stuff it lets me get into it too quickly. I think the tranny is trying to do its job by slowing the shift to first and the gear oil 'overrides' it sometimes causing me to grind first gear sometimes.

I have adjusted to this issue with my driving style. I just pay closer attention to what I'm doing when going to 1st gear. With the older gear oil I was just plain unable to get into first until the tranny said I could. That was fine with me and I got used to it. Now that I have the synthetic (Mobile 1) the shifts are soooo much smoother that I forget how fast I'm going and sometimes it tries to get into gear too soon.

Not a tranny problem, not a gear oil problem. Just a small little issue to adapt to.

I'm happy with my Mobile 1 synthetic. I think most people are in my shoes and just can't or won't diagnose it as a driver error or rush to get into first problem.
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Old 02-09-2004, 07:57 PM   #7
Rated R1
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Quote:
Originally posted by Blindeye_03
oh then why does shifting into second in my miata get better with my redline synthetic?

and OH why was I able to shift into 1st from 2nd in the RS only AFTER putting the redline synthetic fluid in there?

IMO it reduces friction and lets the gear slide in Easier.

-justin
Maybe because you changed the oil? I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I've run Redline in all my cars too!
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Old 02-09-2004, 08:07 PM   #8
Dougie01
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I have redline in my Miata transmission and plan to change back to regular oil when I get around to it. The synthetic oil makes it easier to shift when it's cold, but in normal driving there is a clear reduction in the action of the synchromesh, leading to more clunkiness as the dogs engage. It works fine, I'm not worried about it, just prefer the feel of the original oil.

So based on that experience, and the already good feel of the STi transmission, I'm planning to stay with regular oil in it.
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Old 02-09-2004, 08:11 PM   #9
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I think one of the main reasons people don't like "synthetic" gear oil in Subaru transmissions is that they're using crap synthetic.


Mobil 1 synthetic gear oil isn't exactly high tech.... in my experience it just doesn't work very well, especially with boy-racer types who like to jam shifts as quick as they can go. Mobil 1 just isn't viscous enough to allow the synchros to operate properly.

On the other hand, I've had excellent experiences with Motul Gear 300 and Valvoline Synthetic 80W90. I know Kent has had good luck with Royal Purple in his trans.

So.... synthetics can be good or bad depending on how they're formulated. Not all synthetics are created equal, just as not all synthetic motor oils are created equal.


Basically, it's not a synthetic vs. organic problem, it's a high viscosity (good) vs. low viscosity (bad) problem. That's my take on it, anyway. I tend to stick to 80W90 rather than the 75 weight stuff.
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Old 02-09-2004, 08:57 PM   #10
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I think Templar forgot his (or took too much) medication...

I don't think I've ever seen any threads about avoiding synth in regards to gear oil (though I seen plenty of threads about that for engine oil). In fact, some threads have even pointed out that Subaru's factory gear oil is apparently synthetic.

What I've seen tons of, is posts that state that several particularly slick synthetic gear oils do not make the synchros happy due to a lack of sufficient viscosity (including several varieties of Redline...the Redline Shockproof line, however, has gotten several good reviews in Subaru trannies (from what I've read) as it's more viscous than the other Redline varieties).

My car transmission is quite happy with Motul Gear 300 (fully synthetic) and has been for a couple years now. I noticed no change in synchro activity when I switched from the stock fluid like many Redline 75W90 users did.

(That reminds me I need to bring my car into Prestige sometime for a slow 4th gear synchro...I've started double-clutching that gear as second nature now. Hopefully this is completely unrelated to the conversation at hand, as the other synchros work beautifully and this has just recently (and very gradually) developed. )

Shane -- http://www.warpthree.com
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Old 02-09-2004, 09:05 PM   #11
Rebellion
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i want to get some motul in there when I hit the 30k mark. I'm a little leary about the Redline from people I know personally having issues.

Can't say I totally agree w/ you Kent as some of the points brought up in this post I'd also agree with.
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Old 02-09-2004, 09:44 PM   #12
Petar
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Default Re: My "angry mob" theory

Quote:
Originally posted by Templar
Don't even get me started on mandatory, televised public executions for child molesters, murderers, and computer virus writers.
C'mon dude, Fox is bad enough already
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Old 02-09-2004, 09:49 PM   #13
Templar
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Default

Thats ok. I just spent most of the day listening to stupid people asking stupid questions, so when I heard the same thing come up tonight, I just had to speak up.

Like I say, in personal experience and from a larger number of others, I have seen no ill effects from using a proper synthetic in the tranny. Syncros need friction yes, but the more friction they have doesn't mean that they get better. They need only a certain amount of friction and they still have plenty with an appropriate synthetic.

Oh well, I guess it is like they say "arguing on the internet is like being in the special olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded."

Kent "trying to forge a new dictatorship"

LOL
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Old 02-09-2004, 09:51 PM   #14
mofugga
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just switched mine over to synthetic & it shifts much smoother.
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Old 02-09-2004, 10:03 PM   #15
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There's always gonna be an angry mob out there. When it comes right down to it.. it's not the oil that kills or saves a tranny... oh sure... a good oil is gonna help.. synthetic or not.. but it's all in how you drive it. Slamming a car through gears is gonna put wear and tear on it no matter what fluids you use. Hard launches do the same thing...

Personally.. I double clutch every downshift and do my best to make sure the revs match up with whatever gear I'm aiming for. I can shift into 1st at 25mph on a tranny with 62k+ miles on it. Does that mean I try to? Nah... I don't cram it into first unless I absolutely need to. When I upshift I take an extra second so that the revs match up rather than put a ton of shock load on the tranny. Right now I'm using BG's synth fluid and I'll be switching to AMSOIL now to try that out since I'm at 60k.

Just chalk it up to differing opinions and people taking other peoples opinions and experiences at face value rather than having their own first hand experience to go on. Half the people that saw I got 600cc's out of my injectors think I'm nuts... oh well
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Old 02-09-2004, 10:08 PM   #16
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I've had Motul Motylgear 75W90 in the front and Royal Purple in the rear for 4 months now. The car still shifts great, no complaints. I changed it at 18K
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Old 02-09-2004, 11:02 PM   #17
IronMonkeyL255
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That reminds me..... I should probably change my slushbox fluid.
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Old 02-09-2004, 11:25 PM   #18
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i have royal purple in my tranny and diff's....so far no problems at 45k miles
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Old 02-09-2004, 11:31 PM   #19
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I'm with Tim. The reason you see some people blow their tranny with Redline/Royal Purple fluid is because most of the guys who use a "performance" fluid tend to drive a little...how you say... agressive!?

I'm an example. I blew first gear at the track on a hard launch while I was running Redline fluid. The fluids fault? Noway. My fault for launching the piss outta the car. In fact, I have the same fluid in the car right now with no problems. No more track runs for me!
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Old 02-10-2004, 12:03 AM   #20
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I needed redline in my miata...i have an older tranny in mine that had an issue with a gap from 1st to 2nd gear synchro or something.

Cold starts it wont go in 2nd, once you warm it up it does 99% of the time.

But changing fluids helped majorly.

-justin
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Old 02-10-2004, 08:06 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by IronMonkeyL255
That reminds me..... I should probably change my slushbox fluid.
Use standard Dexron III in the auto boxes!
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Old 02-10-2004, 08:40 AM   #22
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From Cobbs website............... Just food for thought, thats all.....


Gear Oil Technical Info

One common complaint about Subaru manual transmissions are how notchy they feel. A common step taken to help reduce this notchy feeling is to use a better gear oil. But which one do we use? Which one works best? Good questions, unfortunately there's no right answer for everyone.

Internal Conflict - Bearings vs Synchros
Inside your manual transmission, you have two key components that actually require different things to work optimally. Finding the right gear oil for you will depend on what transmission characterists are most important to you. Please read the following explaination to help you decide.


Bearings
The bearings want lubrication. The more they can get, the happier they'll be and the longer they'll live. Your bearings are at work when your car is in gear and you're driving around. Making the bearings happy gives you a quieter, cooler running transmission with lower power comsumption and better gas mileage.

Synchronizers
The synchros, on the other hand, want some friction. Synchronizers are used to bring the gear you're shift to (ie: 4th into 5th) up to speed so that the gears match up without any grinding. In order to do this, they rely on friction. If they get the friction they need, they can perform their job very quickly, allowing quick, smooth shifts. If they don't get the friction though, they can be very tempermental.

Synthetic or Not?
In our opinion, synthetic oil is a great choice. By design, synthetic oils can handle the heat much better than conventianal oils giving you better protection. Most people associate Synthetic with having a high lubrication property, but there are some synthetics designed high less lubrication which favors the synchronizer. We'll take a look at those shortly.


Which gear oil is best?
Going back to our INTERNAL CONFLICT, we must decide on how we drive our car and what we want to achieve. If you typically drive long distances and/or do very little agressive shifting, you're probably best going with a high lubrication, bearing friendly gear oil. However, if you tend to drive and shift more frequently and agressively, then you might want to consider choosing an oil with less lubrication. Yes, the extra friction might reduce bearing life but if you're potentially going to hurt a synchro and/or gear otherwise, bearing life is a moot point.


Below are a list of a few popular gear oils. Our recommendations are just that, recommendations. We're not making any guarantees or official endorsements of any particular product. We're just trying to help you make up your mind as to what will work best for you.

NOTE: All Subaru AWD Transmissions use a 75W90 Oil. The rear end, including the 2000 models w/ viscous rear diff, also uses a 75W90 oil without friction additives.

REDLINE OIL
MTL This oil is too low of a viscosity to be used in the Subaru AWD manual transmission. Not Recommended.
MT-90 Great balance of friction and lubrication. This is a good choice for a street/auto-x car. Highly Recommended.
75W90 A GL-5+ grade oil which has a friction modifier and is more suited for a mechanical limited rear end instead of the transmission. If you want friction in the transmission, use the MT-90.
75W90NS Another GL-5+ oil which offers good lubrication and bearing life. Best for the rear diff but can be used in the transmission.
Shockproof Expensive but a good oil for those who are abuse to the transmission/rear end and/or do quite a bit of racing. Use the SuperLight rated oil. Not a requirement for everyone but good stuff nonetheless.


AMSOIL
Series 2000 75W90 Affectionately called "Smurf Oil" due to it's blue color. Great lubrication properties make it the gas mileage king. Take alot of long trips? Smurf oil is the ticket. Used and developed for fleet vehicles, not recommended for quick shifting drivers.
75W90 Great lubrication properties. Less expensive than the Series 2000 but still works very well. Very good bearing life. For those that favor bearings over synchros, Amsoil is one of the best!


More reviews coming soon...

Conclusion
As you can see, there isn't necessary a BEST OIL that can be recommended to everyone. It really depends on how you drive the car and your particular needs. Some owners find that they try 2 or 3 different oils before they find the one that suits them best. Don't be afraid to experiment and if you want to share your experiences with us, please send them in and we'll try to share your results with others.
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Old 02-10-2004, 08:54 AM   #23
Boxer4Racing
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Just a thought. Most of the people complaining do not know that the Subaru tranny is not built to go into 1st gear while moving. Now I know that it will but that does not mean it should.


But hey what do I know I have just been driving a Subaru since I was 11 years old.

Also this is another reason I don't post much anymore. I don't have time to argue with people who don't know what they are talking about.


Dale Teague (Boxer4Racing)

www.boxer4racing.com
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Old 02-10-2004, 09:15 AM   #24
crazyhorse
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See.. you throw a couple of mikes hard lemonades at Dale and all of a sudden he's posting again!
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Old 02-10-2004, 09:25 AM   #25
sdecker
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Quote:
Originally posted by Porter
Mobil 1 synthetic gear oil isn't exactly high tech.... in my experience it just doesn't work very well, especially with boy-racer types who like to jam shifts as quick as they can go.


You just called Tcarter a 'boy racer', hahahahaa.....

'Boy' would have been adequate, or maybe 'Leroy'. He is from Alabama, after all.

On another note, the whole 'angry mob' thingy seems to be going around the whole board. Lately, so many people just seem to be very defensive about everything...whatever happened to just sharing information? If someone is not right about what they post, that doesn't make them the scum of the earth or anything. Just a simple, polite, correction would be fine. There's WAY too much flaming going on instead.

Scott
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