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Old 03-20-2016, 04:49 AM   #1
Profoxcg
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Default Cobb Airbox versus non Airbox temp

I I bought the Cobb SF intake and box kit, buthe never installed the box. I'm wondering what difference in IAT I would see with the box on or "benefit".

Unfortunately I never really monitored the IAT with the stock intake for comparison.
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Old 03-20-2016, 09:17 AM   #2
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I have a stock airbox. I usually see +12 to + 17F when cruising above ambient. When sitting for a while, things get hot, in the 30-50F above ambient range.
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Old 03-20-2016, 11:07 AM   #3
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Well the airbox helps to block all that hot air that the intake is sitting in so it's fairly self explanatory why it's a good idea.
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Old 03-20-2016, 06:21 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by HinshawWRX View Post
Well the airbox helps to block all that hot air that the intake is sitting in so it's fairly self explanatory why it's a good idea.
well not necessarily they way you put it (so bluntly) but I will tell you what I did found out earlier today.

I had the car running today with the hood closed (on my driveway). IAT was 160 F. Then I opened the hood and the temps dropped 20 deg. 142X F. So I started to watch the engine and monitor the AP temps. The radiator fans happen to blow a huge amount of hot air right into the intake area.

So I am hoping the once I put the box (which is open on the bottom) it will shield the intake from the hot air stream produced by the radiator fans.

I am also thinking of adding a lower duct from the bottom of the car up the wheelwel. - really wondering why Cobb didn't make a CAI for our cars. Cold air > hot air.
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Old 03-21-2016, 10:37 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Profoxcg View Post
really wondering why Cobb didn't make a CAI for our cars. Cold air > hot air.
because

water < hot air
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Old 03-21-2016, 10:51 AM   #6
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Old 03-21-2016, 11:20 AM   #7
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how does that compare to the stock CAI that draws cold air from the leading edge of the vehicle?
not quite sure why people replace that actually
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Old 03-21-2016, 11:38 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by rtv900 View Post
how does that compare to the stock CAI that draws cold air from the leading edge of the vehicle?
not quite sure why people replace that actually
At least on the newer versions, the Cobb box actually retains the snorkel.

I can't imagine the intake without the box will perform near as well as with it...
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Old 03-21-2016, 11:58 AM   #9
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agreed, without the box it's basically a hot air intake, pretty stupid
might as well duct some exhaust into it also
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Old 03-21-2016, 10:32 PM   #10
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At least on the newer versions, the Cobb box actually retains the snorkel.

I can't imagine the intake without the box will perform near as well as with it...

Yeah is what I am staring to think based on what I observed. I will be putting the box in this weekend I should be lower temps.

Funny thing is, the cold air get heated up again by the turbo..
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Old 03-22-2016, 12:22 AM   #11
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If their box is still that cheesy sheet metal design it doesn't do jack squat. bette off going with an AEM , at least it somewhat seals off in the fender well. My IAT s with the cobb and box were horrific.
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Old 03-22-2016, 09:47 AM   #12
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Funny thing is, the cold air get heated up again by the turbo..
and cooled by the intercooler and heated up again by the combustion.
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Old 03-22-2016, 09:52 AM   #13
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I've had good luck with the grimmspeed intake. I even live near Death Valley where temps are through the roof. You can always get a turbo blanket an some dei heat tape an go to work.
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Old 03-22-2016, 11:02 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Profoxcg View Post
Funny thing is, the cold air get heated up again by the turbo..
This is by far the number one thing I see people saying on Facebook whenever we post anything about an intake. "Who cares if the intake draws cold air, the turbo heats it up again anyway." Or even worse.... "Who cares if you're drawing in cold air, the intercooler cools the charge to ambient anyway." While the second bit is completely false, the first bit is based on a general neglecting of information.

I think a lot of people believe that the air heats up to the temperature of the turbo, because the turbo is hot. The fact is the turbo's temperature has a small effect on adding heat to the charge air, and the fact that the turbo is compressing the air is what makes it hot. Take a volume of air, squeeze it all together and all of the sudden the molecules are colliding with each other WAY more often, combined with the work that the compressor just added is why the charge air is heating up. Small turbo making boost beyond its efficiency range (like most of our stock turbos)? The amount of heat is going to be even higher.

Why does cooler intake air work? The increase in density makes the compression by the turbo a bit easier, and thus the turbo is adding less work. However, people seem to ignore that the first law of thermodynamics exists mainly. And by that I mean in an ideal situation (which doesnt exist) you have an initial intake temperature of air + work of the compressor + heat absorption through conduction, convection, radiation = outlet air temperature. The heat absorption quantity would be constant given the same temperature of the turbo and air speed so we can ignore it. And we can give a constant value of work, and thus heat input from the compression of the turbo since it is performing nearly the same amount of work in compressing air from atmospheric pressure to some boost level. So the only variable is the initial inlet temperature. And if you have an initial inlet temperature added to two constants giving a final outlet temperature, the only change possible to the outlet temperature is going to be from how high or low the initial inlet temperature is. In an ideal situation if you can decrease your intake air temperature by 10 degrees, then your outlet temperatures at the compressor will be reduced by 10 degrees. Now that's not exactly how it works in the real world, but it's close. Call it 5 degrees if you want to. But that ends up being less heat that your intercooler has to reject, and less heat in the charge air.

You know, science and ish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acumenhokie View Post
and cooled by the intercooler and heated up again by the combustion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ALOKIN View Post
If their box is still that cheesy sheet metal design it doesn't do jack squat. bette off going with an AEM , at least it somewhat seals off in the fender well. My IAT s with the cobb and box were horrific.
AEM intake, or the exact same intake sold by another popular Subaru aftermarket company made by AEM, is fine if you want an intake that has a smaller diameter than stock

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Originally Posted by EDJR_WRX View Post
I've had good luck with the grimmspeed intake. I even live near Death Valley where temps are through the roof. You can always get a turbo blanket an some dei heat tape an go to work.
Now that's a fine intake if i may say so myself :P We appreciate the kind words, and thanks for posting that up. Here in Minnesota where it was designed we don't have the "luxury" of such high temperatures, and instead have had to torture it on the dyno for testing.

Good info in this thread, where it has been presented. Just wanted to add in that little nugget of info, in hopes that people searching around that don't know, will learn a little something.

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Old 03-22-2016, 11:53 AM   #15
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Great info Chase! Ya my summertime temps can get as high as 115 an I haven't had any issues. Best intake out there IMO.
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Old 03-22-2016, 02:43 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by GrimmSpeed View Post
and the fact that the turbo is compressing the air is what makes it hot.
sometimes I think nobody on this site knows how a diesel engine works.
No spark plugs. . . . just 25:1 CR.
It's like magic
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Old 03-23-2016, 06:46 AM   #17
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i'll leave this here and walk away

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gCi2yo4UqPI
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Old 03-23-2016, 01:36 PM   #18
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i'll leave this here and walk away

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gCi2yo4UqPI
Well why don't you do us all a favor and walk right back here then so you can learn something, and take your video with you.

While MCM is very entertaining and all, it is far from scientific, or even valid testing. The problem with videos like this is for some reason people have absolutely no problem believing that they are true, but assume that when someone with an engineering degree, many years of experience, and substantially more testing and knowledge, is lying to them.

So, lets recap the testing: Stock airbox with snorkel, baseline. Remove airbox and snorkel, add filter, lose power. Remove filter, back to baseline. Replace filter, remove headlight, back to baseline, but with good IATs. Make ridiculous "cold air extension," slight power increase.

Removing the airbox and snorkel, and adding a filter isn't a cold air intake. It's a slightly less restrictive filter (possibly), and it's now ingesting hot air. I get that they're just trying to show that "adding a POD filter" isn't making you power, and they'd be right. See any venturi on that filter? The stock airbox had one (yeah, I know a lot about nissans too), so is the car seeing the same MAF readings? Is it seeing an issue and pulling timing, or in a different cell, etc. Any data to show at all? Nope, just your typical uneducated "If A then it must be B" testing, and no looking into any other cause than the hypothesis you've already chosen is right.

Remove the filter entirely, back to baseline power. Okay, look at this analytically, how could this possibly occurring? Does MCM ever explain it, or do they just blow right through it because they do not understand what could be happening. This is implying that the "POD filter" is more restrictive than the stock airbox, but that the stock airbox is equally restrictive than having no airbox and no filter at all.

Now what would have to be going on for this to be true? How could absolutely nothing have the same amount of restriction as any amount or size of tubing, snorkel, and a paper filter that by definition has to be restrictive in order to filter anything?

Are you aware that the difference between inlet restriction between a blunt entrance and even a slight flare or venturi is around 45%? Granted it's still only a few inches of water of restriction, but that would literally equate to the fractions of PSI that you're probably losing prior to the turbo. You should be more impressed that a worst case scenario, very bad blunt entrance with no snorkel at all is equivalent to a stock airbox. Anyone with even a small amount of pipe restriction knowledge would have tested with a venturi. Same goes with the filter. After the filter element it has a flat, blunt entrance which does a good job of explaining why any potential decrease in restriction because of the higher flowing filter element, is a wash because of it's extremely poor turbulent entrance to the MAF. So now combine that with the fact that it's completely unshielded, and likely supplying air that is even more turbulent than usual across the MAF is a pretty good explanation of why that makes less power. And it's certainly better than no explanation at all.

When they remove the headlight and are getting good, consistent IATs this should tell you something! Did they make more power? No. But could they have tuned to take advantage of it? Absolutely. Also, I'm not even going to touch on it, but they made a heatshield for the filter at one point to that looked like it was pretty much just insulating the filter from the hood, and certainly was not providing any seal at all from the heat of the engine bay.

And finally, the absolutely ridiculous cold air extension. Sure it made a little bit of power, even though it's not really explained why, but the main issue here is that they say "see, it's not worth it even with the coldest air available." But this is looking at only the inlet temperature portion, nevermind the fact that pipe restriction increases with length of pipe (there's is extremely long, longer than you would ever see in any engine) and the tubing itself is the most turbulent that it could POSSIBLY be. And then it's also being bent unnecessarily. And it has that same crappy air filter on it.

Want to know the FOUR things that cause restriction in any intake for a given diameter? Length, wall surface, bends, and inlet. I was surprised it made any power at all, but not at all surprised that it wasn't very much.

Read that last passage again three times, and remember what those 4 things are that cause the greatest amount of restriction in any intake or pipe for that matter.

Also, lets all agree that this isn't intake testing, as they never change the intake. They only change the inlet. This is far from a well designed system, or optimized in ANY way. This test is barely a thermodynamics study at all, despite the fact that they honestly believe they are testing IATs, and much more of a pipe restriction study. It also 100% ignores anything that we were discussing as far as thermodynamics goes, has no information on charge air temperatures, or intercooler efficiency. Do they show how long they wait between pulls? What temperature the intercooler was at? Would you be surprised if a heatsoaked intercooler was making less power than it should? Would you question that the car was getting hotter as they were performing the tests compared to the initial baselines? How big was the dyno fan? Where was it pointed, how come it wasn't on the intercooler, how many MPH can it simulate. You could see in their thermocouple readings that the car was hot, and that they were starting the dyno runs right after turning the fans on. You can see that the temperature never stabilized. Want to show how to get less and less horsepower on a heatsoaked car and intercooler? This is a great way to do it!

With that said, it really says a lot about how we design our intakes. Look at ours and then look at others. You'll notice the methodology is always the same, and it's always focused on decreasing restriction. The pipes are always only as long as they need to be (all are very short), the bends are always at the minimum angle they need to be, they always eliminate corrugated sections of stock intake tubing, and the inlet always has a venturi. That minimizing the 4 major modes of pipe restriction. And they always have an airbox, with a fresh air source, and are sealed away from the major sources of heat as well as possible.

I can keep going, but I really shouldn't. I can tell you that I'm sick of seeing and responding to this "testing." And I'm even more worried for the people that believe it without asking why. And do yourself a favor and look at the comments of the video, where people are saying the exact same things that I cleared up in my last post, such as "the cold air does nothing, because the turbo just heats it up to the temperature of the turbo."

Trust me people, thermodynamics exists. And stop believing everything you see on car insurance sponsored YouTube channels with uneducated enthusiasts, and start asking questions, investigating answers, and testing things yourselves.

Chase
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Last edited by GrimmSpeed; 03-23-2016 at 01:51 PM. Reason: Speelings...
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Old 03-23-2016, 05:58 PM   #19
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lol i didnt know grimmspeed had keyboard warriors on thier payroll.

they were showing extreme cases and general oversight of the hype around cold air intakes. just because they do silly things and have fun you think they are giving out false information?

i know you need to sell products and all, which are great dont get me wrong, but calling them un-educated shows what little you know.
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Old 03-23-2016, 06:40 PM   #20
GrimmSpeed
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lol i didnt know grimmspeed had keyboard warriors on thier payroll.

they were showing extreme cases and general oversight of the hype around cold air intakes. just because they do silly things and have fun you think they are giving out false information?

i know you need to sell products and all, which are great dont get me wrong, but calling them un-educated shows what little you know.
I can confirm - we don't pay any 'keyboard warriors' here. Your post was pretty open-ended, so Chase's response was simply covering his bases. If you'd like to speak with him on the phone, feel free to call (612-379-0000), or, if you'd like to discuss in person, find us at any one of the major Subaru events this summer.

They do show extreme cases and make generalizations (some of which are factual, some are not), but to post that video with no relevant comment as though it's contributing to a thread that's about an extremely specific case is a bit misleading. We aren't discussing silly things and general oversight here, we're discussing specific setups and scenarios.

Finally, Chase's use of the term 'uneducated' is in reference, again, to this specific topic. Don't get me wrong, they're great guys and definitely know some things (Chase and I both spent time with them at a flat4lv GTG during SEMA a few years ago), but when it comes to intake design on a turbo EJ, they're simply not qualified (nor do they claim to be).

Cheers!

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Old 03-24-2016, 06:37 AM   #21
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gotta agree with this guy^

video's like that make engineers heads spin. Within 3 seconds we think of the litany of variables that are completely ignored
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Old 03-24-2016, 07:46 PM   #22
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I appreciate all the good information from everyone and specially from the engineering team at G+S. I was not aware of your offerings and I still can't find your intake for my 2015 STI.

I have learned a ton from this looooong thread and it is all appreciated. If there is on think to take way is that regardless of turbo or not, cooler air and less restriction always help.

I currently bought a Cobb intake. They claim to have use CFD simulation to arrive at their design so I have to take their word for it and assume their intake is better and more efficient in allowing the turbo to intake air then the stock airbox - just as your G+S is.

On the otherhand, their shield box may not be the best, specially being metal and open at the bottom, but I am sure that having that is better than not having anything in place.

If you guys (G+S) could please link me to an intake for my car I would like to learn more, maybe I will sell my intake down the line and try out yours.

All in all, I am glad that my obsession with lower IAT was not all that far fetched.
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Old 03-25-2016, 12:24 PM   #23
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I appreciate all the good information from everyone and specially from the engineering team at G+S. I was not aware of your offerings and I still can't find your intake for my 2015 STI.

I have learned a ton from this looooong thread and it is all appreciated. If there is on think to take way is that regardless of turbo or not, cooler air and less restriction always help.

I currently bought a Cobb intake. They claim to have use CFD simulation to arrive at their design so I have to take their word for it and assume their intake is better and more efficient in allowing the turbo to intake air then the stock airbox - just as your G+S is.

On the otherhand, their shield box may not be the best, specially being metal and open at the bottom, but I am sure that having that is better than not having anything in place.

If you guys (G+S) could please link me to an intake for my car I would like to learn more, maybe I will sell my intake down the line and try out yours.

All in all, I am glad that my obsession with lower IAT was not all that far fetched.
We currently do not have a 2015+ STI fitment intake (the only difference is the airbox really), and it's unfortunately a project that is on the backburner right now. It's going to get done, but I'm just not 100% sure when.

So we don't have a horse in the race, but we do like to provide information and knowledge when it's available. It doesn't really matter if I have nothing to sell you, I just want to help people learn from our own experience.

I definitely like and respect Cobb as a company, but I haven't personally tested the difference between their intake with and without the airbox. Some people have some really strong opinions on it, and some people have data, but it seems scattered all over. BUT, based on what we've talked about here, and the fact that you have the airbox, just do yourself the favor and put it on. Every little bit helps when it comes to IATs.

Chase
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Old 03-25-2016, 08:41 PM   #24
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^

I have been reading on your downpipe and your Faro workflow. I am a Faro Laser Scanner user/customer (for a different industry) and I love the fact that you guys use them to collect you data. I trust my Faro so I know you guy are doing thing right on that end. I also understand CFD, so again Kudos!

I am currently drafting an e-mail with some questions not found on Q&A about the Downpipe. I look forward to maybe having a phone call sometime next week.

Thanks.
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Old 03-28-2016, 11:12 AM   #25
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^

I have been reading on your downpipe and your Faro workflow. I am a Faro Laser Scanner user/customer (for a different industry) and I love the fact that you guys use them to collect you data. I trust my Faro so I know you guy are doing thing right on that end. I also understand CFD, so again Kudos!

I am currently drafting an e-mail with some questions not found on Q&A about the Downpipe. I look forward to maybe having a phone call sometime next week.

Thanks.
Nice, I do love our FARO arm! And I definitely trust it, which really helps us create accurate fitting parts, even when we have to make some seriously tight fits.

I wish I had looked at this thread before I responded to your other thread (didnt realize it was the same OP at the time). So take a look at that, and you can either respond there, shoot us an email, or give us a call. We'll get all of your questions answered.

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