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Old 01-01-2004, 08:11 PM   #1
Silver-Bolt
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Default Pirelli P-Zero's are on.

Wednesday 12/31 I had a set of Pirelli P-Zero Nero M/S tires mounted on my STi. I went with a 235-45x17. Reality a 235-40x17 would have been a better choice. I gained approximately 1/2" in overall height. The STi factory wheel is barley adequate for this tire size

Well todat Portland was treated to 8" of unexpected snow fall. After spending New Year's eve at a firends house I was faced with a 40 mile drive in the fresh snow. I lock the center diff and started for home. The tires performed beyond expectation. The gripped the snow very well. Not as well as a Blizak type tire but beyond my expectations. I only had a few non-snow miles on them but they seem to work great in the rain as well. Highly recommend the tires.
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Old 01-02-2004, 03:37 PM   #2
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Thanks for the review...I plan to buy some of those in the spring for my "summer" tire here in Montana......I'm not sure if they are making them in a 225/50r16 yet but that's what I'm gunning for. I thought about just straight P-zero neros 'but from what I understand the M+S variety have a better treadwear rating (obviously at a slight lose of maximum "grip")....do you know if that is the case? I opted for Dunlop Wintersport M3s and can say they are in everyway better than the stock Re92s that come on the WRX. Have fun with the neros!
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Old 01-02-2004, 09:44 PM   #3
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According to all sources the P-Zero Nero M&S gives up nothing more than the extreme top end of cornering to the regular Nero.

Basically its the same tire with better/more sipes for moving water (and snow). BTW, although Pirelli gave it a M&S designation its actually an all-season tire. All All season tires can be driven in snow/ice and perform from okay to good, while snow specific tires (i.e. Blizzak) tend to give up alot in the normal day to day handling in exchange for superb cold weather/wet weather performance. I just had a set of P-Zero Nero M&S installed on my STi tonight.

Also I run Blizzak's on my Legacy AWD and have been since the Blizzak tire was first debuted. An excellent snow tire that does not cost an arm or leg and works reat as an all around M&S type tire for soft-road use.

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Old 01-03-2004, 01:34 AM   #4
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Thanks for the info Janq. That's what I figured. I'm using the Dunlops for winter but am going to order some SSR comps and want a summer tire that can handle the occasional freak hailstorm or late season snow, mud and slush that can linger well into late spring here in Montana. The Pirelli seems like the way to go.....they also seem quite reasonably priced compared to similiar tires and if they have a decent treadwear rating all the better.
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Old 01-03-2004, 01:58 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dueysan
Thanks for the info Janq. That's what I figured. I'm using the Dunlops for winter but am going to order some SSR comps and want a summer tire that can handle the occasional freak hailstorm or late season snow, mud and slush that can linger well into late spring here in Montana. The Pirelli seems like the way to go.....they also seem quite reasonably priced compared to similiar tires and if they have a decent treadwear rating all the better.
The treadwear rating is 400 with 'AA' for traction and 'A' for temperature. My first chice were the Michelin Pilots but they run $200/tire (!). The Nero M&S is rated equally to the Pilot and they cost me only $123/tire via a price match against Tire Rack by my local Sears. They didn't even charge me for shipping. :P

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Old 01-03-2004, 10:48 AM   #6
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Update. Most of our snow has melted off the streets. The tire perform excellent in standing water and occasional slush. I-5 freeway near me is heavily rutted and I have experience zero tramlining. The track great no wandering. So far I am very satisfied with my choice. I agree that at the extreme end of dry handling they will not perform up to a dry/summer tire standard. For me that is fine, I don't drive 10/10ths on the street. I do plan to have a set of track tires mounted for the occasional trip to the track. Other than that I am certain this tire will carry me all year just fine. They are also much quieter than the 070's as well.
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Old 01-03-2004, 05:45 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Janq
BTW, although Pirelli gave it a M&S designation its actually an all-season tire. All All season tires can be driven in snow/ice and perform from okay to good,.
How is an M&S tire not an all season tire? Mud & Snow is not the designation given to proper snow tires.

Paul
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Old 01-03-2004, 06:25 PM   #8
Janq
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snowphun
How is an M&S tire not an all season tire? Mud & Snow is not the designation given to proper snow tires.

Paul
Paul,

'Mud & Snow' is a designation most often provided by the manufacturer toward a tire as based on its tread pattern and proposed application.

'All Season' is yet another and differing designation provided by manufacturers.

Mean while 'Snow' is a third designation provided by manufacturers but in certain countries such as Canada actually has minimum performance characteristics that are applicable specifically to use on snow & ice surfaces.

Then there are 'Summer' tires whihc most often are intended for tarmac only use some of which such as the Bridgestone RE070 which comes on the STi are not intended for use on anything less than dry and all but the lightest of rain.

There are various other designations but I won't go into those as they are not applicable to the majority & masses.

Most evey tire you see as OEM equipment on any car, Subaru included, are of the 'All Season' variety. That is for the obvious reason that the vehilce will be driven through four seasons. As such they are desigend for longevity and to higher or lesser degrees performance on tarmac (dry), wet road/rain as well as light snow and 'soft road' (i.e packed dirt roads or gravel). These tires are the 'Swiss Army' knife or Jack of all trades though being a master of none. For the average driving consumer this type of tire is more than functional for their everyday needs. Especially considering most average consumers drive medium perfromance sedans and/or light trucks (mini-van, pickup, SUV) across road & highways surfaces nearly 95% of the time.

A Mud & Snow tire (i.e. Goodyear 'Wrangler') is typically that of a more aggressive tread pattern and as a result provides better bite in 'off-road' (loose dirt, mud, & rock) as well as medium to deep snow surfaces. These tires tend to be heavier though not always and these tires tend to have taller sections and thicker deeper tread blocks than an all-season tire. Further they are most often physically heavier and may even be constructed more robustly (adding weight) considering there intended usage.

Then there are 'Snow' specific tires (i.e. Blizzak) whihc may also be marketed as "Snow & Ice" which are not intended for off-road use such as mud, loose dirt, rocks, etc. and are purposely designed for providing maximum grip and bite in light to medium depth snow. Also in some cases they are made of materials whihc are manufactured and designed to provide maximal grip for acceleration, braking and cornering on ice. I am not referring BTW to studded tires as they fall within a group that is not applicable to the masses & majority as noted earlier.

Finally 'Summer' tires (i.e. Bridgestone 'RE070') are most often constructed and treaded in such a way as to provide maximal straightline, cornering and braking performance under dry conditons only or in some cases lightly watered surfaces. A summer tire should never be driven applied at speed over snow, ice, off-road or even in some cases soft-road.

Now of course there is fact and then there is marketing.
Pirelli has seen fit to market and designate the P-Zero Nero "M&S" as a mud and snow tire although a casual reference of the tire tread and its pattern is evident that the tire is in fact an all season tire in design. Why they did not want to refer to it in there marketing is anyone's guess but this tire is not a mud & snow tire.

Yes you can drive the Pirelli P-Zero Nero M&S as well as the Pirelli P-Zero Nero summer tire with varying success through some snow. As I and others have 'experimented' the same can be done with the RE070 (a summer tire) but being able to do so doesn't make it a M&S tire too. Next time you are at your local tire supplier ask to see a M&S tire and then compare it to the tread pattern of a Pirelli P-Zero Nero M&S and compare that to the tread pattern of the Pirelli P-Zero Nero. Note the differences between the M&S and the Pirellis then note the similarities between the two Pirellis. Oft times a picture is worth a thousand words from Janq.

I hope this helps clear things up for you.

Regards,

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Old 01-03-2004, 08:51 PM   #9
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I believe you made the right move going to 235/45/17 instead of 235/40/17. The STI's overall tire diameter is small enough- 235/40/17 would've been smaller yet.

235/45/17 is a little wide for a 7.5" wheel but since they are M&S tires, I don't think you were looking for R-rated performance from the setup.

In the end, you'd have an advantage since the STI should've came with that wide and tall of a tire in the first place. The STI's stock tires' overall diameter and it's short-geared transmission is not optimum for a car with this much of a torque filled powerband.
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Old 01-03-2004, 10:52 PM   #10
Snowphun
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Quote:
Originally posted by Janq
Paul,

'Mud & Snow' is a designation most often provided by the manufacturer toward a tire as based on its tread pattern and proposed application.

'All Season' is yet another and differing designation provided by manufacturers.

Most evey tire you see as OEM equipment on any car, Subaru included, are of the 'All Season' variety. That is for the obvious reason that the vehilce will be driven through four seasons. As such they are desigend for longevity and to higher or lesser degrees performance on tarmac (dry), wet road/rain as well as light snow and 'soft road' (i.e packed dirt roads or gravel). These tires are the 'Swiss Army' knife or Jack of all trades though being a master of none. For the average driving consumer this type of tire is more than functional for their everyday needs. Especially considering most average consumers drive medium perfromance sedans and/or light trucks (mini-van, pickup, SUV) across road & highways surfaces nearly 95% of the time.

A Mud & Snow tire (i.e. Goodyear 'Wrangler') is typically that of a more aggressive tread pattern and as a result provides better bite in 'off-road' (loose dirt, mud, & rock) as well as medium to deep snow surfaces. These tires tend to be heavier though not always and these tires tend to have taller sections and thicker deeper tread blocks than an all-season tire. Further they are most often physically heavier and may even be constructed more robustly (adding weight) considering there intended usage.
AFAIK this is not true. All season and M&S are essentially the same thing. Look at the sidewall of your all seasons, see the M&S distinction? It's an outdated name for many decades ago, and was established before the "Snowflake on the Mountain" distinction was invented.
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Old 01-03-2004, 11:14 PM   #11
Janq
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snowphun
AFAIK this is not true. All season and M&S are essentially the same thing. Look at the sidewall of your all seasons, see the M&S distinction? It's an outdated name for many decades ago, and was established before the "Snowflake on the Mountain" distinction was invented.
Nope...All Season and M&S are _typically_ two different tire patterns and applications. The problem is that the designations are made & controlled by the manufacturer as I noted earlier with the Pirelli Nero M&S.

The snowflake on the mountain designation is relatively new ('90's) and is an indicator for a snow use tire, which you may in fact find on a M&S branded tire. The manufacturers muddy it all through marketing which leads to consumer confusion.
Same similar to Subaru marketing referring to the Forester and Outback as SUV's when in fact they both are wagons. Now there are people who truly believe their Outback/Forester is an SUV because it comes with M&S tires and is several MM higher off the ground than a Legacy/Impreza.

Eye ball the tread and its pattern.
An All Season tire tread as I stated is much more aggressive than a true Mud & Snow tire.

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Old 01-03-2004, 11:40 PM   #12
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I'm still not following you. Our re92's are all season tires, they have M+S stamped on them. M&S simply means the tire fits some loose criteria to be useable in a variety of conditions. Snow tires exceed the M&S standards but are still usually marked as M&S (and possibly snowflake as well).

Sounds like you're taking the marketing view point of the terms, not their true meaning. AFAIK no where in automotive regulations are tires referred to as all season. That is a marketing term.
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Old 01-04-2004, 12:20 AM   #13
Janq
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snowphun
I'm still not following you. Our re92's are all season tires, they have M+S stamped on them. M&S simply means the tire fits some loose criteria to be useable in a variety of conditions. Snow tires exceed the M&S standards but are still usually marked as M&S (and possibly snowflake as well).

Sounds like you're taking the marketing view point of the terms, not their true meaning. AFAIK no where in automotive regulations are tires referred to as all season. That is a marketing term.
Re-read my post from the beginning.

As for RE92, where did that come from?
The topic and my original response was toward the Pirelli P-Zero Nero M&S.

I am not taking a marketing point of view, I touched on that specifically several times as being bogus. All Season as well as M&S are both terms established by industry. There is no "regulation" for either.

Back to what I was responding to Paul about though, just because a tire has "M&S" stamped on the casing as is the case with the Pirelli P-Zero Nero M&S (the actual tire name) does not necessarily mean the tire is in fact actually a true mud and snow tire. In the case of the Pirelli P-Zero Nero M&S which I have on my STi this tire is in fact an all season (4 seasons) tire as based on its tread, construction and overall capabilities.
I cannot speak to your RE92's as I have not owned a set and don't have a reference.

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Old 01-06-2004, 07:14 PM   #14
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New update. Once again amazed at the performance of these tires. We are having a major cold streak here in the NW. Today it was 17 deg and about 2 inches of new snow to drive to work on. No problem at all. Well by noon we warmed up to 22 deg and the freezing rain started. Now we have about 4 inches of snow with 1-2 inches of freezing rain on top. The Scoob got me home safe. No issues at all. I live on a pretty steep hill and had no trouble at all.
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Old 01-10-2004, 11:29 PM   #15
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sorry for the stupid newbie question, but are these a directional or non directional tire?
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Old 01-10-2004, 11:38 PM   #16
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They are non-directional...

What pressure are you guys running with these? They seem bouncy to me and I got around 36psi in the front and 35psi in the rear. I dropped it down to this from 38f/37r...
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Old 01-11-2004, 12:26 AM   #17
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thanks

Last edited by IntraWRX; 01-11-2004 at 01:49 AM.
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