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Old 01-20-2004, 04:20 PM   #26
LotusDriftx
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The word noob has to be the ultimate cumulation of stupid internet lingo....

Writing people off with the word 'n00b' does not make you look very intelligent. In fact it makes you look like an OT adict, which is not really a good thing. Either don't bother replying or say something constructive.

Or at least write him off with something funny and sarcastic so that I can get a good laugh
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Old 01-20-2004, 05:00 PM   #27
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I'll just chime in on this one...

My 02 came from the Subaru dealership with an Injen CAI and a Stromung axle-back. As I learned more about the CAI, I began to wonder about removing it. Well, back in July, I drove up to Vishnu to have my car tuned and reflashed to take advantage of my recently finished full exhaust.

I stopped at the dealership and picked up a freebie stock airbox and brought it with me, figuring that Shiv would prefer to tune the car without the CAI. Well, I ran into a small problem - one of the screws holding the MAF didn't want to come out. To my suprise, Shiv said not to worry about it. That since we were doing a reflash anyway, he would tune for the CAI.

Does this mean that CAI's are automatically safe for untuned cars? No, it doesn't. But are they only a possible negative for performance? No, not really.

One thing I don't understand in this thread, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it still desireable to send as cold as possible air to the turbo to start with? I mean, the compression of the turbo heats up the air a certain amount dependant upon how much it's being compressed, right? It's not like the turbo heats up the air to a set temerature. If the air you start with is colder, the air coming out of the compressor is colder, and the intercooler is able to cool the air even further before it enters the intake manifold. So, it's that colder air taken from outside the engine bay still far more desireable than say a short ram intake that's taking air from under the hood? Now granted, the stock airbox draws from outside the engine bay as well, so you can't make the argument that the CAI will bring in any colder air than it does.

For me anyways, I guess I'll just leave the intake in place - I'm tuned for it, and I gotta admit, it's pretty cool to really be able to hear the turbo spool up and have the stock BOV actually audible

Peace,
E
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Old 01-20-2004, 05:07 PM   #28
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I don't believe anyone thinks there is a negative to a TUNED intake. And more than likely a shorty intake gives some decent throttle response, but I am not sure. What people would say is why bother spending ALL that money when you could get really good gains using it in a reasonable fashion. If you already have it, who cares, it probably sounds mean as well, so bonus points.


The only negatives would be the downside to any CAI, which is the danger of water damage and other things that can now get into your intake a lot easier. Be careful when you select the 'ford the river'...
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Old 01-20-2004, 05:13 PM   #29
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You know there is something I always find amazing about this section of the boards.

1. You post a question
2. You get a reply to the question
3. You question the reply or logic behind it
4. you get called names.

The cycle never stops.

"Your intake causes lean conditions dangerous to your engine because the piping diameter is larger" - Random guy

"Well my EGT gauge doesnt show any higher temp then before and as far as I know EGT rises if the engine is leaned out" - Me

"Your intake has a larger diameter which can mess with your MAF sensor"

"Umm, the diameter is the same as the factory one and the MAF placement is the same distance from the throttle body as the factory one" - Me.

"Bah! you're just a noob" - Random guy



This isnt directed to you Dave. Just things I experience every freakin time I post. If I'm wrong I want to learn. If I question your explanation with a logical thought that contradicts it I want hard facts or reasons why I may be wrong yet again. How else does someone learn? Do I have to go get an ASE certification and find my own answers???
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Old 01-20-2004, 05:40 PM   #30
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This is the first I've heard of the diameter of the injen being the same as stock. Did they change their design?

-- Ed
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Old 01-20-2004, 05:46 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by trustWRX
You know there is something I always find amazing about this section of the boards.

1. You post a question
2. You get a reply to the question
3. You question the reply or logic behind it
4. you get called names.

The cycle never stops.

"Your intake causes lean conditions dangerous to your engine because the piping diameter is larger" - Random guy

"Well my EGT gauge doesnt show any higher temp then before and as far as I know EGT rises if the engine is leaned out" - Me

"Your intake has a larger diameter which can mess with your MAF sensor"

"Umm, the diameter is the same as the factory one and the MAF placement is the same distance from the throttle body as the factory one" - Me.

"Bah! you're just a noob" - Random guy



This isnt directed to you Dave. Just things I experience every freakin time I post. If I'm wrong I want to learn. If I question your explanation with a logical thought that contradicts it I want hard facts or reasons why I may be wrong yet again. How else does someone learn? Do I have to go get an ASE certification and find my own answers???

Just ignore thoes posts that dont offer anything but noob calling...

So you dont see any rise in egts, and your maf is in the same place and your pipe is the same size. You still spent $200 bucks that would be better spent else where, no? Especially if you have more planed for your car.
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Old 01-20-2004, 05:46 PM   #32
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A while back almost all of the companies changed their intake diameters so that the cars would stop throwing cels...thats how I heard it anyways (I'd say a year ago).
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Old 01-20-2004, 05:53 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by LotusDrift
A while back almost all of the companies changed their intake diameters so that the cars would stop throwing cels...thats how I heard it anyways (I'd say a year ago).
I never heard that.... hmmm
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Old 01-20-2004, 05:55 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by totoherbs
Just ignore thoes posts that dont offer anything but noob calling...

So you dont see any rise in egts, and your maf is in the same place and your pipe is the same size. You still spent $200 bucks that would be better spent else where, no? Especially if you have more planed for your car.
I bought the CAI for $100.00 from another subaru owner and I'm still gonna do a ECU flash on top of that.
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Old 01-20-2004, 06:06 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vaus
This is the first I've heard of the diameter of the injen being the same as stock. Did they change their design?

-- Ed
I dont know about before but yes it is the same size as stock. Even the Rod Millen Motorsports Intake I had on my 2000 Celica GT-S was the same size as the factory piping. Back in those days the guys who went with a different brand with a 3" diameter as opposed to a 2" where all getting CELs on their Celicas whereas I never did and drove that car for 3 years.
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Old 01-20-2004, 06:08 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by trustWRX
I bought the CAI for $100.00 from another subaru owner and I'm still gonna do a ECU flash on top of that.
Ok, so you spent 100 bucks, maybe more because tuners charge more for intakes, and after the reflash you get little to no gain in power.....


Much like most aftermarket BOVs its a mod for sound or because you didnt know better.
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Old 01-20-2004, 08:49 PM   #37
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If this was a turbo xs product I bet there wouldn't be half as much complaining and bitching going on. This is typical NASIOC snobbery at its best.
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Old 01-20-2004, 09:14 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rickyh
If this was a turbo xs product I bet there wouldn't be half as much complaining and bitching going on. This is typical NASIOC snobbery at its best.


That sure is a solid counterpoint.
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Old 01-20-2004, 09:22 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rickyh
If this was a turbo xs product I bet there wouldn't be half as much complaining and bitching going on. This is typical NASIOC snobbery at its best.
huh? does anyone in this thread even have a txs product on their cars. That was pretty lame statement...
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Old 01-21-2004, 01:27 PM   #40
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rofl

I kind of understand what he's talking about. If its not <insert brand that YOU have on your car> then it sucks. I honestly could care less what anyone says. Injen has been around, they have established a very well name for themselves, they are local, easy to get a hold of on the phone and I will stick to their high quality products.
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Old 01-21-2004, 02:22 PM   #41
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Wow this thread sucks! And look, hype about injen projects (which suck) coming from "the injen wrx".

way to suck, suckers!
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Old 01-21-2004, 07:14 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by mlambert
Wow this thread sucks! And look, hype about injen projects (which suck) coming from "the injen wrx".

way to suck, suckers!

Mlambert you're a tardmonkey
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Old 01-21-2004, 10:05 PM   #43
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actually hes a productive member of nasioc, who happens to be very correct in that post (and hes often correct, so back down).
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Old 01-21-2004, 10:25 PM   #44
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AH, now all the "air intakes don't do jack" can go burn in hell. I've been putting up with then for 2 years... glad to see they got around to real dyno results now.

Rich
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Old 01-21-2004, 10:43 PM   #45
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yeah, i'm glad that's over with.
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Old 01-21-2004, 10:53 PM   #46
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Good to see this debate is still around.

I'm still waiting for someone to do the REAL comparison.

Until I see dyno results of:
Stock intake tuned car (plotted AFR)
vs.
Aftermarket intake tuned car (plotted AFR ~identical to that of the stock intake chart)

I reserve any further judgement on intakes. The arguments are completely and totally futile without that data. The people who believe one way will never be convinced of the other, whichever camp they're in until that kind of data becomes available. Of course it never will, because everyone believes their what they believe.

Anyway it's difficult to argue that the chart above is of ANY relevance to anyone who has some form of aftermarket engine management. Without both cases having similar AFR you can't distinguish the gain you get from AFR tuning from the gain you get from the aftermarket intake. Apparently even a 'tardmonkey' understands that the two effects are convoluted.
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Old 01-22-2004, 12:02 AM   #47
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I hesitate even to post. It's like...wandering blindfolded...through a minefield...

But, it's like I'm compelled to post. I can't help it! Into the breach!

Quote:
People, he's doing EXACTLY what people always bitch about; he's backing up his claims with quantitative data.
I agree. Now at least we can move beyond "You've got no proof!" and we can instead argue about the vailidity of the data. Hey, that's some kind of progress.

Quote:
1. You post a question
2. You get a reply to the question
3. You question the reply or logic behind it
4. you get called names.

The cycle never stops.
I had some similar thoughts. The initial post, with the graph, wasn't worded in any incendiary manner ("See! You're all WRONG! Mwahahahahahaaaaa!") It was just, "Hey, here's a graph." Okay, so now we can talk about it.

Sprinkled in with the been-there-done-that-argued-that-a-thousand-times posts, there are some valid points, I think.

I will admit that I also am HIGHLY skeptical of any manufacturer's dyno claims. Especially when they're an intake manufacturer and they seem to have similar gains on every intake, always. (Isn't there ANY car out there that has a really efficient intake that can't be improved upon? Apprently not.) Don't get me wrong, I like the Injen product, and we sell it. But I don't use their dyno graphs to sell it. When/if I do my own test of the product, I'll post that. We made 5 whp with a Blitz intake, and I have that graph on our site somewhere. (Let's argue about that one in another thread. )

Quote:
I'm still waiting for someone to do the REAL comparison.

Until I see dyno results of:
Stock intake tuned car (plotted AFR)
vs.
Aftermarket intake tuned car (plotted AFR ~identical to that of the stock intake chart)...
Now THAT'S my idea of a good test. I agree that the air/fuel effect of many intakes can confound the question of whether the intake "adds power" from better/cooler intake air vs. just making a leaner mixture. MOST intakes DO have the factory pipe diameter at the airflow sensor nowadays. I know the Blitz does, although I haven't measured the Injen one for a while and I'm not at the shop now.

I would be surprised if the Injen makes any signficant hp based on air temp. I mean, the factory intake scoops cold fresh air straight from the front of the car already. Sure, it passes through some plastic ducting, but how much heat does it gain on the way? I'd say not a lot.

The Injen piping is certainly smoother and straighter, though, and I would guess most gains (if there are any to be had) are from better airflow, compared with the convoluted factory ducting/snorkus setup.

So, in conclusion...(uh, what was my point here?) trustWRX, thanks for posting the graph. I will always be willing to look at a dyno chart. It's certainly better to debate a chart than to debate no data whatsoever.

I'd leave the Injen intake on. Unless you're going to get some pre-programmed ECU thing that assumes a stock intake (possibly resulting in the "double-lean" programming mentioned above), it should be just fine.

My general advice to customers is, if you want maximum top-end power with big turbo and lots of mods, get a shorty-style intake. I think the less piping you have leading to the turbo, the better. Yeah, the intake air may be a bit hot, but hey, that's what massive FMIC's are for. If you want around-town everyday driving on a lightly-modded car, get a cold air system, because when you're idling at a light and want to take off fast, the last thing you want to inhale is a huge gulp of 200-degree underhood air. And at 20 mph I'm not sure how much cooling your intercooler is going to do, especially a top-mount that has been baking for a couple minutes at the red light.

One final note about intakes: The 300-hp STi uses the exact same scoopy/ducty setup as the plain-Jane WRX. Must not be that bad of a chokepoint, right?

--Dan
Mach V
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Old 01-22-2004, 12:49 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by UGotBoost?
People, he's doing EXACTLY what people always bitch about; he's backing up his claims with quantitative data.
Actually, no he's not. This is the same thing that happened when XS Engineering posted dyno data on their intake 2 years ago. There is a thread exactly like this.

Yes an intake shows gain, but we don't know how much is due to better pressure ratio (flow) and how much is due to the AFR changes.

Then you have one set of people who believe that the gain is from the better flow, and another set of people who believe the gain is from the change in AFR. Huge debate ensues, which eventually goes nowhere, because nobody is willing to front the cash to come up with the necessary data to really tell the whole story.

I don't think anyone disputed the validity of an intake on a car that does not use aftermarket engine management. There's no question at all that there is benefit. Anyone who argues otherwise is an idiot. The question is whether there is significant worth if you add aftermarket engine management on top of an intake, especially considering the cost of doing so, as you need to not only buy an intake, but put significant cost and/or effort in redefining the MAF voltage vs. airflow relationship as defined in the ECUTEK link earlier in the thread.

The single largest problem in intake misinformation is that many people completely misunderstand the argument questioning their validity. The result is misinformed people spreading misinformation about how intakes don't work in any case. On the flip side people present totally irrelevant data to the argument as "proof", as has been done in this thread by the original poster.
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Old 01-22-2004, 01:17 AM   #49
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I made my own fender elbow using my stock resonsator by cutting off the lower half with a hacksaw and hot glued a piece 1/8 flat piece of plastic with a few drain holes for moisture to drain out since it was a low spot. Also bought a piece of dyna matt extreme and suck it to the back side of the inlet over the raditor to sheld the heat soak. It might not be of much use since the air will get hot once intering the turbo. I also removed a piece of rubber the sealed air just before the inlet. I was bored and had to tinker some. . as well as a k&n drop in pannel filter.
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Old 01-22-2004, 04:15 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by WrxSlvrWgn
I made my own fender elbow using my stock resonsator by cutting off the lower half with a hacksaw and hot glued a piece 1/8 flat piece of plastic with a few drain holes for moisture to drain out since it was a low spot. Also bought a piece of dyna matt extreme and suck it to the back side of the inlet over the raditor to sheld the heat soak. It might not be of much use since the air will get hot once intering the turbo. I also removed a piece of rubber the sealed air just before the inlet. I was bored and had to tinker some. . as well as a k&n drop in pannel filter.
Ur gonna start a whole other flame war here. Its gonna be how K&N's decrease the cars performance by oil up the MAF sensor... yes, thats it... its the filter's fault, not the idiot who over-oiled it.

Jesus people, I can't believe this is STILL going on. The "anti-intake" people have been shown (again) that intakes work well for the car, and boy this is a fight. Its like how the US is holding onto the standard system, and not switching to the metric system.

Ur wrong, admit it, move on...

So long as someone is making the accusation about temps and how the shops fans are making BS horsepower, why not bring up larger TMIC's are not doing anything aswell, since they employ a fan aswell (not the best argument though).

Out of everyone who is flaming air intakes...who's had one physically on their car?

I've had 2... one on, sold it due to dealer and I-Clubs internet techs. and now have it again... and I'm reaping the benefits

Rich
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